Thread: Selling compilation CDs legally?

I am looking for a legal and ethical way to make and sell compilation CDs. I'd like to purchase the licenses from iTunes or Emusic, make a CD, and sell it for a minor markup (for my time and the materials). In order to do so in accordance with copyright law, I am thinking of purchasing the songs repeatedly (ie. to make 10 CDs, buy 10 copies of the song on Emusic), so that the artists and producers are properly compensated.

But, how many laws would I break?

Not how it works...see ASCAP..giant, huge, big, super size me can o worms!!!. Even dance studios should be paying fees to them unless you only play live drums. Had a few rounds with them last year. The method they use to determine who recieves the monies they collect is scandalous. They are the Music Mafia, and will probably hunt me down from this posting.

Federal Court Decides License Fees to Be Paid to ASCAP by AOL, RealNetworks and Yahoo!

Originally Posted by steffib

I am looking for a legal and ethical way to make and sell compilation CDs. I'd like to purchase the licenses from iTunes or Emusic, make a CD, and sell it for a minor markup (for my time and the materials). In order to do so in accordance with copyright law, I am thinking of purchasing the songs repeatedly (ie. to make 10 CDs, buy 10 copies of the song on Emusic), so that the artists and producers are properly compensated.

But, how many laws would I break?

You could create a list of tracks on emusic. You could then email the hyperlink to your students. Maybe there is a way to download a whole list with one click. But the downside is they'd have to sign up for a subscription plan.

Originally Posted by ssipes

You could create a list of tracks on emusic. You could then email the hyperlink to your students. Maybe there is a way to download a whole list with one click. But the downside is they'd have to sign up for a subscription plan.

You can also create an iMix on iTunes that works similarly, and the cost is calculated by the song; no subscriptions needed. However, you don't earn anything, so it's not really a way to sell the music, just to point your students (etc.) to the tracks you recommend.

Also, it has one INCREDIBLY ANNOYING limitation: you can only include songs that you bought on iTunes. If you bought a song on CD, you can't include it in your iMix, even though iTunes carries it.

Ummmmmmm why not buy them wholesale and sell at retail? Would be a lot easier I think and less time consuming.

This may or may not help your particular situation, but I'm planning to include pages on BellydanceDownloads.com with teachers' lists for their students. Basically a teacher can send me her/his list of what music is being used in class(es) and I'll put together the links, where available, for the songs.

Originally Posted by Lucinia

Ummmmmmm why not buy them wholesale and sell at retail? Would be a lot easier I think and less time consuming.

Because she wants to provide a custom compilation of tracks off several albums.

Indeed, my goal is to provide compilations of music from a variety of different musicians/CDs.

I have tried making playlists for people before - and much to my dismay, that has been a royal waste of my time. Nobody even bothered looking at it, much less downloaded anything. It seems expecting too much that people register for iTunes and emusic and then actually download music (I know, I know, I sound negative - people's lack of passion for the music is a sore spot for me). So, I'd like to get people into this music with instant gratification, make it so easy to get the music that there is really no more excuse.

You cant do a hard copy CD and sell it legally.
Best suggestion is to wholesale and sell.
It seems like when you ask and try to do the right thing, the labels will "track" you more and you run a greater risk of a nasty letter and a fee.
You might check into a short sample of the songs to see if you could do that but I seem to remember if you go over a certain amount of time, you could be in violation of laws.

Sorry, I re-read and I dont think I was clear, by a short sample, I meant less than one minute of a song. That used to be the cut off on timing unless it changed.

Steffi, one way I solved this was to put 30-second excerpts of songs on the compilation CD, with a piece of paper enclosed saying where to go to buy each song. By making the clip so short, I avoided copyright infringement problems, while still achieving what I wanted, which was exposing my students to a variety of musicians and songs.

Though I must say, I don't bother with that any more, either. It was too much hassle copying CD's and printing out inserts with the info about the songs.

Warning: grouchy rant ahead

It seems to me that the real underlying problem is that most students are lazy, passive, and don't take advantage of the learning resources we sink our valuable time into creating. (like music playlists for class that they can download at reasonable prices, or youtube playlists with extensive second by second commentary on what they are seeing). We think that by taking it one step closer to spoonfeeding and physically handing them a CD, they will suddenly change into motivated active learners who care who Oum Kalthoum or Mohammed Abdel Wahab was, or the difference between a Malfouf and a Maqsum rhythm, or what the oud and ney sound like. But it doesn't. I have given burned CDs to people in the past and most of the time, if I reference it in the future, have they listened to the music, or even taken care of the CD, made a backup, kept the artist/album information? No. AND they have the audacity to ask for another copy.

Sure, some will use the excuse that they aren't computer savy, but most students, especially the younger ones, damn well know how to purchase and download MP3s. And if they don't, well, if they could purchase and download a costume, a hipscarf, or the latest trendy dance togs online, you can bet your ass they'd figure out how to do it.

Could you create a lending library of CDs and charge a lending fee? That way you're not spending time creating compilations that maybe won't get listened to, but you've got the music available for those that *want* to listen to it, and you can collect fees to replace damaged, stolen, or lost copies.

wooohoooo - go Sedonia!!!! go Sedonia !!! go Sedonia!!!! Can we double that for troupe members who feel the same way???

Originally Posted by Taj

Could you create a lending library of CDs and charge a lending fee? That way you're not spending time creating compilations that maybe won't get listened to, but you've got the music available for those that *want* to listen to it, and you can collect fees to replace damaged, stolen, or lost copies.

I think the problem there might be that most lending institutions don't buy at consumer prices, but at (much larger) institutional prices.

This is an interesting discussion, and I hope it continues, but I think Patrisha is ultimately right--making and selling hard copies is just not allowed. Do teachers do it? All the time, even big names on the workshop circuit. But it is illegal.

Originally Posted by steffib

Indeed, my goal is to provide compilations of music from a variety of different musicians/CDs.

I have tried making playlists for people before - and much to my dismay, that has been a royal waste of my time. Nobody even bothered looking at it, much less downloaded anything. It seems expecting too much that people register for iTunes and emusic and then actually download music (I know, I know, I sound negative - people's lack of passion for the music is a sore spot for me). So, I'd like to get people into this music with instant gratification, make it so easy to get the music that there is really no more excuse.

Will they honestly listen to the CD? If they're too lazy to use iTunes or Emusic, I don't see why they'd be too lazy to listen.

Could you make listening to the music a requirement? Sonya of Chicago is running a "semi-pro" training class with required CDs for the students of that class; I don't know how she requires and knows about it, but perhaps something like that may encourage (or force) them to listen?

and you can collect fees to replace damaged, stolen, or lost copies.

Nope..thats redistribution and you cant even do it for free...legally. I used to give away the CDs I burned and used at our gigs...no more. I got ratted out by an itinerant singer song writer who just happened to be at the coffee house where we perform. -*I think they (ASCAP...rhymes with ASSHAT) pay a bounty for those that turn in violators - in this case my coffee house owner - who eventually paid them off after repeated threats of legal action. Dont get me started. After I began to do the research on this issue and ASCAP in general, my blood pressure went off the charts. You know...I wouldnt even mind if the money actually did get into the hands of the actual artists, or their families, if they are dead..., but it doesnt. It is really very sad.

The only way to legally make & sell compilation CDs is to contact the publisher of each song you want to include and purchase the rights from each of them.

The only way to legally run a lending library (even for free) is to make arrangements with the music publishers to purchase the appropriate rights.

And even if you did all that, your students wouldn't be any more interested in the music than they are right now. I think providing them with info on where to buy music (online and off) and talking about the artists/tracks you're using in class is all you can do.

I don't even print handouts any more, it was a waste of trees. People feign interest, or take one to appear interested, and stuff it in their bag or car and never look at it. Students who are motivated can find info on my website. If someone tells me they don't have web access, I'm happy to print one copy of info for that person.

I can accept that most of my students are recreational, they don't want to spend time or money beyond class. But when people get to the troupe level and still don't want to buy a CD or attend a show (unless they're in it) I get a little disgusted.

Go Laren, go Lauren , go Lauren...*moves fists in a horizontal circle while doing oppositional rib circles...

Originally Posted by ssipes

Because she wants to provide a custom compilation of tracks off several albums.

Oh, Doh My bag.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Steffi, one way I solved this was to put 30-second excerpts of songs on the compilation CD, with a piece of paper enclosed saying where to go to buy each song. By making the clip so short, I avoided copyright infringement problems, while still achieving what I wanted, which was exposing my students to a variety of musicians and songs.

Is there really some sort of rule about being able to legally provide a short sample? Where can I get info on this? I'm wondering about this for the purposes of posting my dance vids on youtube....that's breaking all music copywrite too, no? What if it's just a short sample?

I hate all this leglistic rubbish. It's absolutely stifling.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

I hate all this leglistic rubbish. It's absolutely stifling.

I don't know a top Egyptian teacher yet who doesn't flog comp cd's in their workshops....at least all the workshops I've been to. And every bugger buys them, as well. All this holier than thou poo people spout about music rights...whatever. It's my bet the artist really couldn't care less if one of their tracks ended up on a comp cd because if someone hears just one track, it may encourage them to seek out that artist and buy more full albums.

Kharis,
I can assure you that most artists really DO care if there work is on unauthorized CD's. That is direct money out of their pockets.
I have been on a road trip with an artist and was playing a new CD that I purchased from an established BD music vendor when their music came on the CD, they were not aware that they were a feautured artist on this particular CD... wow...from first hand experience, they do care.
That being said, I have contacted artists for permission to use music or ask how much they wanted to use a piece of music and the range is from "Oh, thank you for asking, I give you permission for free" to "I want $1500.00 for a one time use and a 10% take of every DVD sold"

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

All this holier than thou poo people spout about music rights...whatever.

There's no 'holier than thou poo.' The question was what's legal -- the answer to that is really clear and well-defined. What people DO, what they consider ethically correct, is another matter altogether.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

Is there really some sort of rule about being able to legally provide a short sample? Where can I get info on this? I'm wondering about this for the purposes of posting my dance vids on youtube....that's breaking all music copywrite too, no? What if it's just a short sample?

It varies according to each country's laws. I don't know what Australia's are, so you'll need to research that. Here in the U.S., there is a concept known as "fair use" which allows usage of copyrighted works under certain situations. One of those situations, for example, is for educational use. For example, "fair use" allowed my college instructors to duplicate copies of academic articles for us to read and discuss. Another of those situations is for product reviews - which is why the music reviews on my web site have short excerpts of some of the songs, to help people reading my review determine whether the CD is one that might suit their taste. Australia could be different, though.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

The only way to legally run a lending library (even for free) is to make arrangements with the music publishers to purchase the appropriate rights.

I'm glad you mentioned this Laura! I've been considering doing a video lending library that includes a deposit in case the video is not returned or is damaged, and maybe a small "lending library membership fee".

Canadian dancers - is this illegal in Canada as well?

Hope I'm not hijacking the thread..c::

(If I am set me straight an I'll start another thread)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

And even if you did all that, your students wouldn't be any more interested in the music than they are right now. I think providing them with info on where to buy music (online and off) and talking about the artists/tracks you're using in class is all you can do.

I agree. I hand out notes for each Level 2 class (which helps me because I can see on my computer when the last time I used the class plan was, and make sure I don't recycle topics too frequently), and at the top of each is the song, artist and CD name. I have had students who have downloaded songs and bought CDs based on them, but they're in the minority.

I have a few students, most of whom are in my student troupe, who have fallen in love with ME music and culture and vigorously pursue learning opportunities and experiences beyond class. I tend to put forth my greatest efforts with them, and just let the others have as much interest as they like. While I can ask that they be focused and pay attention to me in class, I can't really control what they do once they walk out the door. For me, the ones who are passionate and dedicated about dance make it totally worth my while.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

There's no 'holier than thou poo.' The question was what's legal -- the answer to that is really clear and well-defined. What people DO, what they consider ethically correct, is another matter altogether.

My holier than thou poo remark is aimed at people who get all up in arms about legality then go buy a cd comp at say, a Raqia Hassan workshop. They no doubt believe that copyright laws are not the same in Egypt. Well, that may be, but I'm damn sure the artist's rights are just the same, be they backed up by the legal system or not. And is it legal to buy comp cd's even if they feature foreign artists? If so, then why aren't these top teachers banned from flogging their cd's at workshops.

Originally Posted by anala

You know...I wouldnt even mind if the money actually did get into the hands of the actual artists, or their families, if they are dead..., but it doesnt. It is really very sad.

My ex was a musician/sound designer. He got bugger all from his record company. He got more money from royalty payments from PRS.

Originally Posted by patrisha

Kharis,
I can assure you that most artists really DO care if there work is on unauthorized CD's. That is direct money out of their pockets.

I'm most likely biased...as stated, my partner made nothing from sales from albums. He ended up on comp cds produced by other record companies and made zilch from that too. I think it's the small artists who suffer the most. If everyone in the land purchased a licence to play music in public, they would be a lot better off that way, rather than making money from cd sales.