Thread: Performance venues

Hello all,

Two questions. First, I notice a lot of people upset about bellydancers showing up at a restaurant looking for work. My question is, if you are a bellydancer looking for work, how else would you go about doing it? I realize promo packets are a good idea, but I was wondering when are you not stepping on someone else's turf by going to a restaurant to see if you can get a dance job? If the restaurant already has dancers, it might be that these other dancers are just looking for work and it seems a likely enough place. This isn't going on with me right now or anything, I'm just wondering because I've read a lot of threads about other dancers showing up at restaurants in search of work. I also personally went through a great deal of difficulty with restaurants last year when I lived elsewhere, trying to get work.

Second thing. Currently I have an audition with a burlesque show. Real burlesque, where there is comedy and dancing dogs. I'd just be bellydancing. I am excited about this, but considering the way I have seen the burlesque community spoken about here and elsewhere I wonder if it is a good move or not.

Brea,
My question would be why would belly dance be a good addition to this burlesque program. It's not an issue of casting a value judgment on burlesque; it's an issue of what burlesque is vs. what belly dance is (i.e. not the same thing). I know this horse has been beaten to 1000 deaths in other threads, but I'll just say, I would love to see burlesque at a burlesque show and belly dance at a belly dance show.

Nisaa

I don't know exactly but they seemed to want one. It's more like a variety show, old burlesque. It's something I'm considering.

Brea,
In other threads you've expressed concern about public misconceptions of what belly dance is. Surely performing belly dance as part of a burlesque revue isn't going to help matters? Again, this is not a statement against burlesque. But when I think burlesque, I think comedy/satire laced with sexual suggestiveness - I just don't think belly dance. Perhaps we are just operating with a different definition of what belly dance is.

Nisaa

Hi,

No, we are not. That's the reason I'm asking the question. I've asked it before, but since the place the show used to be in was shut down it sort of became a moot point. Now they are back up and running again and asked if I'd like to come down and perform with them. I think I might be operating on a different idea of what 'burlesque' is, though. Vaudeville is probably a more accurate name for the type of show I'm considering. And to be perfectly honest, there are no opportunities to perform on a continous basis where I live (restaurants or anything, and I've tried to get that to happen but with no luck), so this would be a place for me to perform maybe once a month, as it's in another city a ways away from me.

IMO (and experience, as I've done it) performing belly dance as part of a vaudeville/variety show is fine. I would not do belly dance in a show billed as a burlesque show, but I have no issues with sharing the stage with burlesque dancers in a variety show. What better way to show the general public that belly dance and burlesque are two different things than by, well, showing them?

WTR the restaurant question, why not ask the dancers who are already working there who to contact? Talking to them before you talk to the management will avoid as much as possible any impression that you are stepping on anybody's toes.

To answer your question about restaurants: I imagine it depends on the area. In most areas, the dancers all know one another, at least a little, through the dance community. We've all attended haflas, workshops, etc. together and however much we may disagree on various issues, we share a profound love for an obscure art. So while we are business competitors, we are also friends.

People walk into businesses and apply for jobs all the time. But you wouldn't generally walk into your friend's employer and ask for HER job without having some sort of discussion with her first. So in areas where there's a dance community of any kind, it's a breach of etiquette to dance next to someone at a workshop on Saturday and on Wednesday go after her job.

Talking to restaurants that don't have dancers is another matter. As long as you're not undercutting, those restaurants are fair game until someone gets hired.

Regarding the other venue: What does the show call itself? Does it call itself a burlesque show or a vaudeville show? I would dance in a vaudeville show next to burlesque dancers IF there's sufficient variety in the show. Are there other ethnic dance forms being portrayed in the show? Flamenco, hula, African dance, etc? Or are the other dancers all various forms of burlesque -- which may include acrobatics, fire, etc. but have the common element of stripping down to pasties...

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Brea,
My question would be why would belly dance be a good addition to this burlesque program. [/I].

Ah, perhaps because danse du ventre was a typical act in most early burlesque venues? Let's not forget that in the US burlesque and belly dance share some history.

Originally Posted by aazura

Ah, perhaps because danse du ventre was a typical act in most early burlesque venues? Let's not forget that in the US burlesque and belly dance share some history.

My understanding was that vaudeville/burlesque appropriated belly dance movements and themes because the latter were viewed as salacious and lewd by turn-of-the-century audiences. With our current informed understanding of belly dance in its social/cultural context, why would we want to revert to this antiquated, misguided approach to the dance?

Nisaa

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

With our current informed understanding of belly dance in its social/cultural context, why would we want to revert to this antiquated, misguided approach to the dance?

Nisaa

I'm not voicing an opinion on appropriateness. I'm just saying that it was very common to have danse du ventre in burlesque theaters. You asked why they would want it... well, that's why.

My original question, about why belly dance at this purportedly burlesque event, was I suppose meant to prompt the original poster to consider this issue for herself...i.e. to encourage her to consider both why the producers are so gung-ho about the idea of a belly dancer in their show (what do they perceive belly dance to be?) as well as why she, as a belly dancer, might consider it a good idea to present belly dance in a burlesque program. The OP did ask whether this would be a "good move or not".

RE: The restaurant question
Given that there've been multiple threads on this, I can't speak to every one/every post, but to echo what's been said here (and what have been some of the things I've heard from dancers on- and off-line), many of the issues seem to crop up when dancers either a.) try to go around/over the head the existing scheduler/lead dancer or b.) don't put forth the time and effort to learn about the job at the specific restaurant (in terms of the situation with respect to dancers/scheduling/who to talk to etc, but also in terms of the style, costume, skill level and other expectations relevant to the job/place.)

Looking for a dance job is like looking for any other kind of job: it's in your best interest to do your research up front about the company and the position you're hoping to obtain. In the case of getting a job at a restaurant that already has dancing/dancers, that means finding out something about who is already there/what the situation on the ground already is. And that means starting by finding out if there is a lead dancer/a dancer doing the schedule.

I know it can be tempting to go directly to the owner...and I know that there are *some* situations in which perhaps a dancer-scheduler or lead dancer may be perceived as "bogarting"...but be careful about jumping to that conclusion or bypassing this step. Not only is it good from a respect and ettiquette perspective to start by having a conversation with the scheduling dancer (and you'll want to have started off on the right foot if you DO get a job at the restaurant), but in many cases, she may actually have useful information and advice for you! And in some cases, the owners have explicitly told the scheduler/lead dancer that they don't WANT to deal with a flood of inquiries--that they want *her* to handle them...ESPECIALLY when they're not actually looking for new dancers. At times like that, you may be better going to the scheduler who may be able to consider you for a possible sub or keep note of you for potential future need than risk irritating an owner who's not in the mood to be bugged (and will toss your card out right away). So...again, better to respectfully go to the dancer first and at least try to get the lay of the land before you start schmoozing the owner too hard. And then, if/as appropriate, talk to the owner, but be open with the dancer. If you go some place you think *didn't* have dancers and discover they *do* (so you've already talked to the owner, maybe ask him if you can contact her. Basically, just remember...you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.:-)

If there's *not* dancing at the restaurant, though, fair game. Go to it, talk to the owner. :-)

Mirah- that was just the problem. I did talk to the owner, who I asked about the audition process, and he said I could audition for him... without informing me there WAS a lead dancer to talk to. I think she felt I stepped on her toes (which I didn't know were there). I asked who I had to speak to and the owner told me it was him. Lo and behold I later discovered that it had been useless. I felt REALLY bad because I didn't know.

Re: the burlesque show bills itself as burlesque, but includes a variety of performers, some of whom are men. Singers, musicians, ukulele players, etc. I'm not sure...maybe they call it that to get the audiences more or something (more than calling itself vaudeville, I mean). I'm confused about it because as was said I do have an issue with the misrepresentation of bellydance and didn't want to add to it. I suppose I was interested because I did view it more as a variety show with a burlesque title. Perhaps that is foolish of me, as I suppose that it being called burlesque would add to it.

I recently moved from Seattle, WA, where they tend to have a lead dancer that manages several dancers..... to Houston, TX where most of the venues don't have lead dancers - dancers each deal directly with managers/owners. There are a few exceptions though within venues managed by troupes or studios....

What's really sad, is that I'm finding that some Houston dancers are really worried about job stealing, becomes there isn't that middle manager (ie lead dancer) to buffer the inquiries.

I think the former method seems more advantageous in my opinion, especially for those of us trying to make it in a new city.

I've tried to do my research and getting to know the community. But I still get a sense of apprehension from other dancers, which is frustrating for me. I see a real fear coming from them. I've gotten a few subbing gigs, others have blown me off, and others have downright ignored my offer for friendship and per chance- subbing...

So, here...schmoozing the lead dancer isn't an option. The best we can do is nuture friendships in hopes to be the first person on another dancers mind when another dancer leaves the venue. Hopefully, she will recommend you.

For now, I'm trying to seek other new venues, I'm a little more of a go getter, than to sit around waiting for a gig to fall into my lap...

What the saddest part is..is that, just before I left Seattle/Tacoma, I was offered a new steady gig in Tacoma, right as I was packing to leave for Houston...Darn it.....cr.:

Originally Posted by AnnaTX

So, here...schmoozing the lead dancer isn't an option. The best we can do is nuture friendships in hopes to be the first person on another dancers mind when another dancer leaves the venue. Hopefully, she will recommend you.

For now, I'm trying to seek other new venues, I'm a little more of a go getter, than to sit around waiting for a gig to fall into my lap...

I feel your frustration with schmoozing. It's unfortunate that kissing ass is still the Number One preferred method of getting work in a lot of communities. Early in my professional career, I got out there with my friendly, gregarious personality and wanted to be everyone's buddy, a tactic which has never failed me in the civilian world, where everyone from the baristas at Starbucks to random people on the street where I work know me by name. (My friends actually make fun of me because I'm so prone to spontaneous friend-making). You could imagine how weirded out I got when I came onto the performance circuit and suddenly people began to snub me and even badmouth me for no reason, when I'd been nothing but easygoing and polite. It did, and still does, blow my mind.

Now, I honestly don't give a flip about pleasing the clique....but it's too bad, because being the rogue entepreneurial cowgirl isn't always fun, either. We'll all find our niches, though. Just keep on truckin' and somebody, somewhere along the line, will be impressed by your resourcefulness and drive. If you've got your own resources to succeed, you'll make it, whether or not you have a cheerleading squad to back you up (because they want you to throw 'em a bone, not because they legitimately think you're cool).

I am so going to Bellydance Hell for my past couple of rants....

I think the real issue for me was transferring to the Midwest after Hawai'i. The dance scene there is a lot different than here, and I was trying to be professional and courteous about it. I guess the appeal of the burlesque/vaudeville show is because it only happens very infrequently and since I live far away from that city it would be nice to have a venue where I could dance once in a while. Also, yes, the history of dancers in burlesque shows is why they want dancers of our type. Regardless of whether those dancers were doing things accurately, something was there in history of 'bellydancers' on the burlesque stage.

I think the main problem is that the term 'burlesque' referred to a comedy variety show that had some stripping in it, back in the day....but that title was stolen by strip clubs. So was the title 'cabaret'.

Brea -

the other question is what are you attempting to achieve in the long term? Are you still going to Scotland? Is this worth the work, the energy output in the short term?

*If I have missed your decision to NOT go to St. Andrews, my apologies and please disregard the above.

{{{{HUGS}}}

I am still going to Scotland. I want to continue to pursue bellydance as well. What do you feel is taking away from my eventual study in Scotland?

I don't see that it is taking away from your eventual study there. But I was under the impression that you are leaving for Scotland in the next 8 or so weeks. Which, while not a big deal, does have me wondering why you are putting so much effort into opening venues to dance in here when you won't be around very long to service them. Is your plan / thinking to turn the venues over to your students, etc when you leave? are you simply trying to "sub" for a few months? Or do one offs?

Nothing wrong with wanting to continue to dance and to get paid to dance. And nothing wrong with opening up new venues. I am helping some people I know do that as well. I was simply confused because the tone seems to be almost as though you are looking for a regular gig which will potentially last for a couple of years. which is why I asked what it is you are trying to achieve.


As for the burlesque show, I am going to be a rebel and say that if it's a variety show, go for it! Be a little proactive and put out a press statement outlining the historical / vaudeville connection so that your hands are clean. And then go have fun!

{{{HUGS}}}}

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I did talk to the owner...he said I could audition for him without informing me there WAS a lead dancer... I think she felt I stepped on her toes ...I later discovered that it had been useless.

Was in the town/metro where you live, or in the larger metro? If the latter, and if it was one of the places that has weekly dancing and several dancers on staff, the story behind your experience may have been...a little different than to what you're attributing it. In anycase, regardless of where it was, be a little wary of *assuming* the scheduling dancer sank your chances or felt too toe-squashed. Even when there's a such a dancer, the final say typically rests with the owner. But know this about Arab men and restaurant owners: it's often not their way to say a straight "no," esp. to a woman. Sometimes (to the dancer) an owner seems very interested in auditioning--even hiring--her only to turn around and not take the audition/hire her because HE wasn't interested for whatever reason (had enough dancers, liked someone else better, she wasn't what he was looking for, etc.) Some may even let it look like it was the lead dancer who nixed it. One potential benefit of having a lead dancer/scheduler for the owner: someone else manages some of the socially and culturally awkward aspects of dealing with dancers...like delivering bad news to potentials or passing along new "rules" to the house dancers.

That said, breaking into a new city is hard. There IS often trepedation on the part of the existing dancers. Some may be unfriendly suspicion, but for many...when someone new arrives, she may seem friendly and talk a good game, but you just don't know her yet. Is she really a good dancer? Is she trustworthy? Is she reliable? ...Or is she a raging nutcase who'll turn out to be a phony and cause problems in the community? ,r:; Dancers work hard to establish themselves, and by the time they reach a certain point, many have encountered someone with ill-intent (or even non-malicious wrecking-ball tendancies). Some caution is to be expected, and it takes time to get to know people. Also, some may not respond to outreach, not because they're mean or threatened, but just because people have good intentions but they also lead busy lives. Most dancers I know work insane hours--many have demanding day jobs, teaching, husbands, kids.... So you may have the best of intentions, but sometimes things you'd like to do slip through the cracks.

You don't need to "seriously kiss butts" with everyone or suck up to the "cheerleading squad," but when you come into a new area (or are first getting started) it IS a good idea to try to get to know other dancers. You will learn a lot about the community talking to several different dancers AND by watching them. Those people you *genuinely* connect with (beyond discussing interest in possible sub gigs, etc.) may have helpful perspectives too, even if they don't seem to hold the "gig keys."

To tahira - Oh! I see what you mean. Scotland is next fall (2009). That's probably where we got a bit of a mixup. And thanks for the encouragement for the show!

To Mirah - in the larger metro. I didn't think she nixed me at all. Communications on this thing are so hard! No, what I meant was that *I* had made the mistake and felt bad for not going about it properly, you know? Kind of like I shot myself in the foot. I had meant no disrespect. In Hawai'i, where I had just moved from, the island where I lived *had* no restaurant dancing. It was all event or party oriented. So when I was in the larger metro I was brand new to the idea and trying to go about it the only way I knew. I was in contact with a few dancers there but since I eventually had to move I wasn't down there long enough to make real connections, unfortunately, or take classes as we were struggling a lot and now with gas as it is a trip down there is a serious commitment (as is a trip up here for you, I'm sure). Speaking of which, I'm still interested in discussing a workshop, as an aside.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Speaking of which, I'm still interested in discussing a workshop, as an aside.

Yes--thank you--I will email you this afternoon when I get back from a few appts. I was awaiting for date/time 100% confirmation on a couple schedule things in the later summer/early fall, so that I could be sure the info I gave you was correct. :-) Finally got that yesterday....

I think that doing proper bellydance in a variety show that includes burlesque dancers won't make bellydance look lewd. In fact the contrast would highlight the difference. I think the belly/burly confusion is borne of fusion, not from having 2 contrasting acts side by side. At the end of the show any audience member will leave fully aware that the burly strippers took their clothes off in a cheeky entertaining dance, while the bellydancer kept all her clothes on during a beautiful and graceful performance.

Kash - and this, perfectly said, is why I am considering it.

Originally Posted by Kash13

I think that doing proper bellydance in a variety show that includes burlesque dancers won't make bellydance look lewd. In fact the contrast would highlight the difference. I think the belly/burly confusion is borne of fusion, not from having 2 contrasting acts side by side. At the end of the show any audience member will leave fully aware that the burly strippers took their clothes off in a cheeky entertaining dance, while the bellydancer kept all her clothes on during a beautiful and graceful performance.

I agree with this and I think you should do it!

Thanks, ejahana! I also agree with that. The other aspect is that I think many bellydancers who went this route also did burlesque. I don't want to do anything except bellydance so I was thinking that might clear up a bit of confusion. Besides, as I said, historically (whether they were doing 'proper' oriental dance or not) it does make sense. Considering that burlesque is supposed to feel 'vintage' anyway, and they're basing these acts off of historical ones, I think it would be nice to have proper bellydance as a part of it.

I am going to be arrested by the Belly Police, for this and for pro wrestling...

I find it amusing that dancers who would never consider performing on a stage, in a real theatre, with professional lighting/sound/sets, in a show that also features burlesque performers might, on the other hand, agree to perform belly dance in a seedy bar setting. I'm not thinking of anyone here on Bhuz, by the way.

Ultimately, the venue is not nearly as important as how the dancer presents herself and her art form. A classy dancer will still be classy and professional performing in a biker bar, in a burlesque show, in a hafla or on the street corner. Obviously there's a need to consider your own safety in certain situations but you are in control of how you present yourself, right? Don't be a passive victim to ignorant crowd members or judgmental colleagues. Be yourself. :o)

Thanks, jaded. I've never thought about that either! I think I am going to pursue it.

Brea - Thanks for posting both of these questions. I'm similarly baffled as to how to approach restaurants, but I think I might post my questions about it on a separate thread...not sure yet.

As to bellydance in a variety/burlesque/vaudeville show: Do it! Have fun! Don't allow any constraints that you yourself haven't chosen. If you like variety shows and you enjoy being part of them, go for it.

In my experience, working with burlesque and variety is a really nice experience. Performers and audience are very respectful and are there to have a good time. It's more of an "art" audience (at least where I live), which means that people will be generally interested in whatever you do, whether you're doing a taqsim beledi or a blockhead act (I've seen both on one bill...I was the former and the latter was performed by an art-school cutie).

Don't forget that at this point in history, "burlesque" isn't an entertainment for horny sailors. Those days are gone. Now they have titty bars for that. Burlesque is now really more like SCA or performance art. My feeling is that you can have it all - the authentic folkloric/Oriental performances, the experiences of the cultures our dance comes from, and the connection to American performance history that is undeniable when you dance in a variety show. I don't think there's anything the least bit wrong with it. Those shows are so much about a kind of innocent pleasure that is difficult to find lately. It's not like you're hopping around in a g-string and calling it Authentic Oriental Entertainment (eek...that sounds like an ad in the back of New York Press...must wash now...).

I'm honestly not sure that bellydance was included in these shows simply because it was considered lewd. I suspect, from looking at the types of acts that variety shows usually included, that anything that seemed entertaining got thrown into the mix. Sometimes this meant titillating/lewd, but sometimes it just meant "other". Don't forget the other functions of vaudeville - to haze and therefore assimilate newcomers to the US, and to entertain and take the money of the working folk. Frankly, I'd love to participate in more variety show-type stuff if it presented itself, so...like I said...go for it, girl!

- Leela