Thread: needing a ticket for a show you are dancing in???

I know this topic has been covered a LOT, so I'm sorry to bring it up again. It just really bothers me.
If you get a show ticket with a workshop package, and you are dancing in the show, wouldn't you think that you could give that ticket away? That was my plan, but I was told (very nicely, by a person I respect and admire) that the ticket was for me and that I would have to buy another ticket for my husband. I don't feel like I am asking for anything special, just to use the ticket that I bought!

Considering that my family doesn't really enjoy belly dancing anyway, I think they will just stay home.

I hatehatehate the thought of paying to dance!

thoughts? am I being a penny-pincher?

I have always had reservations about that policy. It does seem quite strange to me.

I also know sponsors that have stated they could not afford to allow all the performers to attend the show for free. Performers had to purchase half priced tickets to enter. Otherwise the sponsors claimed they could not allow troupes to perform since it would take such a huge bite out of potential income. That is truly paying to perform.

Of course if a dancer agrees to perform knowing they have to purchase a ticket to that show then they have agreed to those terms. I decided to forego performing if I had to pay for the priviledge. As per the sponsor's terms I had already paid for the workshop.

With the current cost of fuel and all the other increases I do foresee even more such costs. Many events are cancelling. The balance of 2008 may indeed include many more changes and cancellations.

In regard to shows not associated with seminars - that does change things. Lately more sponsors of independent shows are requiring performers pay a portion of the door fees. One sponsor actually expected performers to pay the same door fees as the GP. She realized she would have to fill the show with her students since many performers declined that offer. Some of her students bailed on her once they realized they were not excluded from the admission fees.

How would they know? Just curious, when I have purchased a package and danced I have been given the ticket in the mail and can give it to whoever.

Originally Posted by Reinaa

How would they know? Just curious when I have purchase a package and danced I have been given the ticket in the mail and can give it to whoever.

It's will-call.

I really do understand that the producer is having financial issues, but this is a major pet-peeve of mine.

Now my family is happy because I won't make them go.

I think lots of things enter into the paying to dance issue.
Some of the workshops and show really wouldnt make if they extended free show, dinner, whatever to everyone that performs when there is a 3 hour show with non-stop dancing such as the Little Egypt venues. At the last one we went to, there must have been at least 75 performers.
Lets face it, not all 75 were what I would call headliners but the venue provided a great place to dance and be with some top notch dancers and instructors.So, that considered, I would see it as an investment in your dance experience, not as being used by the promoter who would not normally hire you any way.
Now, what do you all think about fundraisers such as the Cairo Carnival (old name yes I know) and the MECDA chapters that extend a reduced fee to performers? I dont mind paying for this type of thing as I know first hand what it takes to do the events and provide an opportunity for all levels of performers.

Well, I started out feeling the same way. I really didn't think it was right that performers pay for a ticket. Well, didn't I change my mind fast when I organised my own event !

I think they key thing is - is this event being attended by the bellydance community only, or are the general public making up most of the audience. If a show has a wide appeal, and possibly involves a number of acts with one or two bellydancers, the show is able to charge the same as other theatre shows (I pay £15 for cheap seats at the local festival theatre, and up to £60 for dress circle seats). The show has a tour or a run. Audience numbers could be about 400 people or so. This is then a commerical gig. You wouldn't expect performers to have to buy tickets, and you also wouldn't expect the performers to turn up early, and bag all the best seats for them & their friends and family !

If the show is all bellydancers, groups or dancers, and is attended mainly by bellydance community, with one night of performance only and smaller numbers of attendees (say 60 to 100 people). Then, I can understand why people are asking everyone to pay.

I stopped doing hafla shows for a while as they were loosing money, they were a lot of work, and I could not meet the expectations of the attendees (who requested among other things a buffet to be provided in the night club).

I've started somewhat tentitively again, and mainly because people seem a lot happier with what I'm offering and are generously supporting with help and dancing, I'm continuing.

Thank you for the other view points, I appreciate it.

Something I can't get my head around is that for many of us, this is work. I love dancing, but I also love sitting around, sans makeup, in my pjs with my boyfriend and dog. There are nights when I have to do the makeup, hair, and costume and then spend the whole night away from home, but my reward is the money we need to pay our bills.

So if I do happen to have a free night, why would I give away money to do my job? Maybe my perspective has a lot to do with the painfully futile day-job search I've been on for months.

And personally, I find stage shows unfulfilling - that's just me, I like being close to the audience and dancing with them - so that's even less of a draw. There are certainly exceptions, and I have danced for free before, but I can't foresee myself being willing to pay to dance.

thoughts? am I being a penny-pincher?

As for this question, there is never anything wrong with looking out for yourself financially. I agree that you have the right to use the ticket you paid for.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

You wouldn't expect performers to have to buy tickets, and you also wouldn't expect the performers to turn up early, and bag all the best seats for them & their friends and family !

In the situation you're describing, you also wouldn't expect performers to sit in the audience.

During most professional shows, performers don't HAVE seats. A dressing room, communal or private, is provided for them backstage, but they are NOT offered seats in the theater.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

Something I can't get my head around is that for many of us, this is work.

Yes, yes yes! And the kind of community shows where performers are usually buying a ticket -- or for that matter, not being paid -- aren't usually venues for professional dancers. Haflas are student venues, and most workshop shows (of the type where the performers are unpaid) are showcases for the students at the workshop. Pros are always MORE than welcome at these venues, of course -- if it sounds like fun to them to perform for other dancers who will 'get' their more artistic or folkloric material, or if they're trying to build a name/image within the dance community.

But the shows aren't set up for the pros, they're set up for the student performers.

BUT regarding the OP -- I agree with you, if you purchased a ticket as part of a workshop package and then got free admission to the show because you're a performer, you should be able to give the ticket you BOUGHT to whomever you please!!!

Please tell me more about these workshop/show events!

? Are workshops during the day with the show following?

? Who is dancing in the show? Workshop attendees only? Anyone who wishes to sign up? By invitation only? Combination of any two? Other?

? What is the admission fee for a plain ol' audience member?

? What is the workshop fee?

? What is the fee for participating in the workshop and dancing in the show?

? What is the fee for participating in the workshop and attending -- but not dancing in -- the show?

? Any other info to share?

Thanks!

Deborah

*It has been my experience that most workshop/show events consist of at least one day of Instruction, usually 4-5 hours of class on Saturday - followed by a Saturday evening show. Sometimes more Instruction on Sunday.
*Most shows consist of dancers that are either invited to perform or were selected from pre-registered workshop attendees. If you do not support the workshop/learning experience then you cannot perform. Period. I know of one sponsor that expects a % of a troupe to take the workshop in order for the troupe to perform. I am not certain but I believe it is 60-70% of any group or troupe. Personally I think everyone that performs should support the learning experience.
*Admission for a show varies by area and what amenities are included. If dinner, dessert buffet or a mezza is included then the fee would have to include those items. Most events that are devoted to the performances (+ maybe a cash bar), involved tickets that range from $10-15 pre-purchased, often $5-10 more to purchase at the door. Lately performers are expected to pay half the pre-purchased fee.
*Workshop fees vary according the Instructor, venue costs, etc. Lately I have noticed a minimum for most workshops start around $70 for Saturday. (Some are $80 pre-registered. If the Instructor is Egyptian or a major name in MED the daily fee can easily exceed $140 per day.)
*Most sponsors offer a nice discount for pre-registered attendees. That discount often offsets the show ticket price. Pre-registering enables the sponsor to have pre-event funds. That often allows a sponsor to 'sweeten' the deal a bit.
*It is not unusual for workshop/show weekend attendees to face quite a bit of spending. Consider a minimum of $150+ for a 2-day workshop and show, hotel room for 2 nights, food, gas, etc - not even considering any potential purchases along the way. It is not unusual when I travel solo to an event for me to spend a minimum of $500+ - prior to being tempted by shopping. Those numbers are from before the current spike in fuel costs.


Years ago I sponsored a number of seminar/show weekend events. I do agree it is a risky endeavor and a sponsor has to be creative in order to remain solvent. I decided to stop sponsoring when other area sponsors decided I was being foolish by not charging performers for a show ticket. The other sponsors decided to no longer support my events. Nor did they mention my events to their students. I felt that was a good time for me to step aside.

Well...I think it probably depends a lot on the specific situation and specifically what is meant by "purchased a ticket." If tickets to the show are $X and you, in ordering from a "menu" of workshop expenses checked off a box to spend $X specifically on the ticket, then yes, in my opinion, that ticket is yours even if you also spent $Y on a Saturday workshop. If, however, it was one price for a package deal that included a whole weekend of stuff (for example, workshops Saturday, lunch saturday, show Saturday night, workshops Sunday...or something like that...) it may be a different matter all together. It depends a lot on how the individual producer has set things up and it's really at his/her discretion whether the ticket is transferable because it's part of a package, not an a la carte purchase.

The thing is, when producers put together a weekend "package" deal like that, often the package deal represents a significant discount and that discount often comes out of the show cost--so effectively, they're "throwing in" (or giving at very significantly reduced cost) the show ticket because you're purchasing the whole weekend of workshops. In such a case, you didn't purchase a show ticket per se, so it is not yours to give away to someone else. It's part of your package if you choose to use it, otherwise it goes away. LOTS of things in life and business work that way.

I can also see, in venues with limited seating, etc., telling performers that if they want to go out into the audience and watch the rest of the show, they will need to purchase a ticket/seat. If you only have so many seats to sell and you need to sell x-many seats to make the $ needed to pay for the event, you can't give away the candy store. But, if the performers don't buy a ticket, fine--let em hang out back stage/away from the stage or leave when their performances are done.

Now, it's a different story if you're a professional performer being asked to buy a ticket to be at a show you're performing in, regardless of whether you'll get to see any of it....

The closest thing I have done to a workshop show is a festival where the workshops were running during the same time as the festival while performances run continuously throughout the day. Here's how it works.

Admission to the Festival:
General: $10 advance purchaes / $12 at door
Performers (open sign-ups): $5
Workshop attendees: $5 / free if purchasing two or more workshops (workshops are priced separately)
In this scenario, only those who purchase two workshops are admitted to the festival for free; all others pay some type of admission, including performers, but note the tremendous discount for performers.

Now let's say that I was hosting one of these workshop shows where you have various workshops during the day and a show following. I don't think I've heard of anything quite like this in my area. This seems a little trickier to me. Hmmm . . .

Okay, I think I have something figured out.

I'll assume that the show following the workshop is a sit-down-and-watch type of thing, as opposed to a come-and-go-as-you-please-while-people-are-dancing kind of thing; that performers remain backstage and do not see the show; that only workshop attendees can perform; that no one is being paid.

I would give the performers an opportunity to purchase one ticket at a discounted price to give to anyone of his/her choosing. If a performer does not have a guest for that performance, than he/she wouldn't purchase a ticket; that is, the performer would not purchase a ticket to the show that he/she wouldn't even see! Making performers who remain backstage, unable to see the show, buy a ticket for that show seems, well, a tacky way to grub money from people.

Just my take on it as an event producer . . .

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

performers remain backstage and do not see the show;
<snip>

the performer would not purchase a ticket to the show that he/she wouldn't even see! Making performers who remain backstage, unable to see the show, buy a ticket for that show seems, well, a tacky way to grub money from people.

Excellent post, Deborah, but the above assumption is faulty. At least in all the workshop shows I've been to (St. Louis, North Carolina, Chicago, and Dallas) I've never been to one where the performers didn't watch nearly all of the show, except while they were dressing.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Excellent post, Deborah, but the above assumption is faulty. At least in all the workshop shows I've been to (St. Louis, North Carolina, Chicago, and Dallas) I've never been to one where the performers didn't watch nearly all of the show, except while they were dressing.

Ah, that could change things a bit.

Let's see . . .

I've decided that even if the performer can see the show as an audience member, I say the performer doesn't pay for his/her ticket. I'd have to think a bit more on whether to offer a discounted ticket for a guest . . .

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Ah, that could change things a bit.

Let's see . . .

I've decided that even if the performer can see the show as an audience member, I say the performer doesn't pay for his/her ticket. I'd have to think a bit more on whether to offer a discounted ticket for a guest . . .

Deborah

I agree with you, and that's usually how it's done around here.

Just for the purpose of discussion, though -- what about a troupe with 10 members? Does the organizer let them all in for free? What if there are 5 such troupes who want to perform in the show, who will be using 50 seats in the theater?

(I've had shows where I've had a fourth of the house seats set aside for performers, and I gave them their tickets, but I may have to stop inviting groups in the future!)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Just for the purpose of discussion, though -- what about a troupe with 10 members? Does the organizer let them all in for free? What if there are 5 such troupes who want to perform in the show, who will be using 50 seats in the theater?

(I've had shows where I've had a fourth of the house seats set aside for performers, and I gave them their tickets, but I may have to stop inviting groups in the future!)

Whoa, Nellie! I think I'd have to put some kind of limit on that!

The question is, how? This is especially tricky because these troupe members have each taken the workshop, right? That means they're all entitled to a show ticket if they perform, right? Oh, boy. . .

Specific to your situation, Lauren: can the show accommodate every single workshop attendee? There is a limit on the number of performance slots available, after all. Is it all first come/first serve or can you pick and chose whom you include?

Maybe only a certain number of troupes can perform? For the sake of argument, let's say that you decide that you will limit the number of troupe seats to 20. If you do first come/first serve, then when you reach 20 seats for troupes, then no more troupes can perform; solos round out the program.

For folks who attend the workshop, but do not perform, I would offer a nice discount for the show. For example, if the general admission to the show is $15, then I would package the show ticket for a non-performing workshop attendee at $10.

Deborah

Deb, my situation is different because it was my student show, but some of my invited guests were troupes. So between my students and the guests there were 50 seats set aside in a theater that seated 197 people. So, my solution is simple but painful to execute -- stop inviting guest troupes! ( of course my students get seats!)

But I was wondering how that situation would translate for workshop show producers. Presumably, yes, everyone performing has attended the workshop, so that makes it a different situation since they're 'paying customers'. But I still think the organizer would have to put a limit on it. Or perhaps say that everyone is welcome to perform, but each troupe gets only 5 free tickets to share between them or something.

I wonder how big a problem this issue is at an ATS workshop where all the performers are -- presumably -- troupes?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Deb, my situation is different because it was my student show, but some of my invited guests were troupes. So between my students and the guests there were 50 seats set aside in a theater that seated 197 people. So, my solution is simple but painful to execute -- stop inviting guest troupes! ( of course my students get seats!)

But I was wondering how that situation would translate for workshop show producers. Presumably, yes, everyone performing has attended the workshop, so that makes it a different situation since they're 'paying customers'. But I still think the organizer would have to put a limit on it. Or perhaps say that everyone is welcome to perform, but each troupe gets only 5 free tickets to share between them or something.

I wonder how big a problem this issue is at an ATS workshop where all the performers are -- presumably -- troupes?

Ahhhh . . . student shows are different. I've been a guest artist at one of these things a few times, but it was always very casual, there were no admission fees, etc. In these cases you do have complete control over who performs.

As to translating to a workshop show, your idea of "each troupe gets only 5 free tickets to share between them or something" has merit. I think as long as the balance of the dancers in the troupe get some kind of discount, it might not be so bad. Again, this assumes that all the troupe members dancing in the show also took the workshop.

I guess if you're doing an ATS workshop show, you're probably going to need a venue to hold at least 300 people! Oy! ..g.:

Deborah

Originally Posted by Lauren_

In the situation you're describing, you also wouldn't expect performers to sit in the audience.

During most professional shows, performers don't HAVE seats. A dressing room, communal or private, is provided for them backstage, but they are NOT offered seats in the theater.

Absolutely they don't. At a showcase held recently, I had to tell the performers they did NOT get to sit in the theatre after their performance. They did NOT get to wander around in costume where the public could see them. They did NOT bring family and friends backstage. They DID stay backstage in the changing rooms throughout the whole show right up until the bitter end.

Haflahs can be different... at least in the UK. They are much more informal. However, I still insist that performers not wander around before their dance slot in costume...

All performers at my haflahs pay a full ticket, because they are eating the food, enjoying the entertainment and there are musicians to pay etc. However, a student showcase held in a theatre is different and I don't expect them to pay to perform.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

Absolutely they don't. At a showcase held recently, I had to tell the performers they did NOT get to sit in the theatre after their performance. They did NOT get to wander around in costume where the public could see them. They did NOT bring family and friends backstage. They DID stay backstage in the changing rooms throughout the whole show right up until the bitter end.

Because this is different than around here, I was wondering if their would be an issue with the dancers released from backstage as long as they are properly covered up? In just about every show I've ever been in or attended (including two competitions), dancers are allowed to move freely as long as they are a) wearing a coverup (often specified as not a draped veil, but an actual coverup garment) b) backstage a couple of songs prior to their slot and c) wait until between performers to take their seat so they're not distracting the audience.

Honestly, the thing I like best about performing is seeing the other dancers. I'd be less likely to perform at an event if I knew I wouldn't get to see any of it. Especially since most of out BD community events don't pay the dancers, from my perspective getting to see the show (free or not) is part of the payoff for being included.

At our school - and the routine's pretty much the same for MEDANZ shows - there are cushions down the front of the venue, which are there for performers who wish to watch the show before and after they perform. MEDANZ generally doesn't let you out into the theatre during your own half, so you will normally only get to see one half of the show. We're a little more flexible on that so long as dancers only enter during the breaks between numbers. If they want a *seat*, however, they have to pay for one.

The way I see it is that there is a limited number of tickets issuable for any venue. *If* a workshop participant got a ticket as part of his/her package, then that's a ticket that can't be sold. So it seems to me that if the ticket is not being used it's an empty seat that would be much better filled, in which case performers would do better to give their complimentary ticket to a guest. But it all depends on how the ticketing is determined; if performer tickets are "during the show performer seating" tickets, then no, you can't sell one or give it away. But if performers get access sans tickets, then those tickets should be putting bodies in the theatre. It's a lot nicer to dance to people than empty seats!

Most of our events don't even come close to selling out, so there's usually plenty of seats for dancers. Sometimes there's a "dancer section" set aside, and other times you just grab whatever empty seat that strikes your fancy.

"Absolutely they don't. At a showcase held recently, I had to tell the performers they did NOT get to sit in the theatre after their performance. They did NOT get to wander around in costume where the public could see them. They did NOT bring family and friends backstage. They DID stay backstage in the changing rooms throughout the whole show right up until the bitter end."



In this case, is there a way to have a video feed for the people backstage to see what's going on up front? When I was in high school (in the Dark Ages), we had a monitor backstage for all our productions and I would think this would be pretty low budget.

Originally Posted by Magidah

In this case, is there a way to have a video feed for the people backstage to see what's going on up front? When I was in high school (in the Dark Ages), we had a monitor backstage for all our productions and I would think this would be pretty low budget.

No! A theatre show is not about being able to watch the show if you are a performer. We had the show filmed, so they had their chance to buy the DVD.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Because this is different than around here, I was wondering if their would be an issue with the dancers released from backstage as long as they are properly covered up? In just about every show I've ever been in or attended (including two competitions), dancers are allowed to move freely as long as they are a) wearing a coverup (often specified as not a draped veil, but an actual coverup garment) b) backstage a couple of songs prior to their slot and c) wait until between performers to take their seat so they're not distracting the audience.

Honestly, the thing I like best about performing is seeing the other dancers. I'd be less likely to perform at an event if I knew I wouldn't get to see any of it. Especially since most of out BD community events don't pay the dancers, from my perspective getting to see the show (free or not) is part of the payoff for being included.

If you're performing in a theatre, as part of a theatrical show, it's highly unprofessional to then go sit in the audience! Haflahs are different, because they are parties.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

If you're performing in a theatre, as part of a theatrical show, it's highly unprofessional to then go sit in the audience! Haflahs are different, because they are parties.

I think there's definitely a cultural divide, then. This has just not been the case at any BD show/event/competition I've ever been part of or attended here in the U.S.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I think there's definitely a cultural divide, then. This has just not been the case at any BD show/event/competition I've ever been part of or attended here in the U.S.

I recently hosted a theatrical-style show. It wasn't in a theater, unfortunately, but it was a very formal program. Therefore "theatrical rules" applied:

*All performers remained backstage, unseen, throughout the show.

*It was expected that audience members would remain in their seats.

Theatrical-style shows are very different from most showcases/events/competitions, so the expectations for both performers and audience are very different. It really depends upon the formality of the event. So, I think it's okay for performers to see the show from the audience at less formal events, as long as they are not in costume.

Deborah

Originally Posted by laura 2

I think there's definitely a cultural divide, then. This has just not been the case at any BD show/event/competition I've ever been part of or attended here in the U.S.

I agree that there is a cultural divide coming up here. I also agree that it is highly unprofessional to sit in the audience, but in the US it seems to be OK if you are totally covered up to slip in during breaks to the back of the auditorium and quietly stand to watch another dancer.

There seems to be a feeling that if you are only accepting the gig in order to see other big name dancers for free, then you are not at an acceptable professional level and I agree that this practice is unprofessional. However, if you are the first dancer in a 2-hour show I don't think you should be relegated to a locked dressing room for the duration without any way of knowing what is going on in the outside world.

I suppose if you were in a ballet company, and you were in the corps, you wouldn't be allowed to run out to the audience to watch the pas de deux.....but I think there are plenty of people watching from the wings, and I also think that there are monitors backstage (but I could be wrong). Also, in a production like that everyone gets to see the different pieces through rehearsals and such so there isn't the same "one time only" feeling to a regular running theatrical production such as a ballet/play/musical as there is to a professional showcase of belly dancers.

If I see other dancers' performances on a monitor backstage -- that doesn't keep me from purchasing a DVD of the event. I agree that the whole point of being in a theatrical show is not to watch it yourself, but I don't see anything wrong with being able to enjoy what is happening around you either.