Thread: Oiy Vei!! Undercutting....

So yeah to beat a dead horse!
I just still don't understand why people do this!
In our area the giong rate for parties is $175 to $250 or higher. Most professionals, and yes I know that is a very loose term, agreed not to go below $175.
See the below corresponance and read from the bottom up. I changed the name for privacy.
Has anyone anywhere found ways to help this problem?
In our area we try to chaulk it up to ignorance and set up educational articles, websites etc....doesn't seem to be helping.
Do we just have to throw our hands up and say no matter what we do we can't prevent it?
Just frustrated!

The response I got was "Glad to see you are passionate maybe I will take one of your calsses"

Ack! ,m::

Hi Jane,
Wow really… See most of the professionals have a set range in which we work. For example for a party like this its $175-$250. $175 being the lowest. There are some out there that undercut as you are seeing and therefore doing an injustice to those trying to make a living at this. As you know I don’t do this as a job and it is a hobby for me but I do believe in setting a standard and a bar for those that DO make this as a profession. With an $800 costume, the hour it takes to get ready, then drive, do a gig for about an hour and drive home does $100 seem right?
I understand the dilemma though with the budget and all. The LOWEST I can go is $175, including everything, I hope you understand, but you won’t be disappointed!
The bottom line is, as with anything else, you get what you pay for.






From Jane
I'm glad LMRA is offering such a unique class...sounds like fun!
somone has offered to do instruction at my birthday for $100 + $25 for gas (which is more suitable for my budget). If you can beat this price, then I'd be interested in using you.
Thanks,
Jane


Hi Jane,
Yes I am the instructor at LMRA. I’ve been there for about 4 years now!
Sounds like a fun birthday!
-Nadirah



From Jane
This is my birthday party, but I'm trying to surprise friends with this belly dancing lesson. Are you the teacher for the class at LMRA?

Hi Jane
Yes I do lots of parties like that! They are lots of fun!
I am available on Sunday and we can talk about what exaclty you want but typically I will come and do a small show, I bring ample hipscarves (up to 15) for guests to wear and teach a lesson. We can make it however you want and the price is $200.
-Nadirah

Are you sure there really is someone else quoting $100 or is "Jane" just trying to get a deal with haggling?

Just FYI Nadirah, I charge $300 for these types of parties.

$250 is my standard rate for a half-hour appearance (including 20-25-minute show and photo op). If I stay 45 minutes to an hour, it's $300.

I don't do anything for $175 anymore.

You're nicer than I would be, Nadirah - my response would have been, "My rates are non-negotiable. You'll get what you pay for."

Like TH-Tx, the going rate for lesson + show is $300 around here, so this lady was getting a deal!

(Incidentally, I recently hired a burlesque dancer to perform and teach a lesson at my birthday party, and she also charged $300...it seems to be the going rate in the Boston area)

dancers in our area pull in about the same for that type of gig, minimum of $200, average $300 to $350 with mini lesson (or more)

*Sigh*

Sorry this is happening to you. Pfff. For what it's worth, a couple of months ago, I got a call from a woman looking for a dancer for her wedding. She seemed really interested in me, I quoted her my wedding price, then heard nothing back. Ok, no problem. In the meantime I booked something else for the date (which is now just a few weeks away). In the meantime, it turns out, she'd booked with someone who offered her FIVE dancers for less than the price I was asking for just me. Now...the price I was quoting her was even at the lower end of going price range for weddings, but I wasn't doing any frills or extras, etc., so I tried to do the best for her that I could. Well, wouldn't you know it, last week she contacts me again--turns out "wonder troupe" has dropped her gig because another gig came up and now she's looking for a dancer again.

Of course now I'm booked so I told her I could line up a great pro for her who'll honor the rate I'd initially quoted her. ...Of course now I've left her a message confirming that woman's availability and asking her to call me back and now I've not heard back from her again...so I have to wonder if she's once again bargain shopping for undercutters....

Grrr.

Are you sure there really is someone else quoting $100 or is "Jane" just trying to get a deal with haggling?

I know since she responded and didn't hire me. WHich means she has someone else.

Just FYI Nadirah, I charge $300 for these types of parties.

$250 is my standard rate for a half-hour appearance (including 20-25-minute show and photo op). If I stay 45 minutes to an hour, it's $300.

I don't do anything for $175 anymore.

We hadn't discussed details since we were " haggling" at that point. She didn't mention how long she wanted the set. THere is NO way I would do 45 minutes for $175. I just mentioned that thats the "lowest" most people went to. I haven't done a party that cheap in ages!

Thats part of the frustrationi. If we CAN get this much why on earth would you take half?!

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Just FYI Nadirah, I charge $300 for these types of parties.

$250 is my standard rate for a half-hour appearance (including 20-25-minute show and photo op). If I stay 45 minutes to an hour, it's $300.

I don't do anything for $175 anymore.

It is very Good to know what you girls are getting for your GIGS there in Dallas Ft Worth area. As dancers everywhere~~ we need to support the Going rate, undercutting hurts us all.

I can see we need to update our rates!

Here's a link to my booking page:

Hire a Belly Dancer! ~ Booking Tamra Henna

*eta - it's modeled off of a format that I got from Zari, who got it from Tahira...it's been a good resource!

Yeah I need to update what I am tellling people too! :-)

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Here's a link to my booking page:

Hire a Belly Dancer! ~ Booking Tamra Henna

*eta - it's modeled off of a format that I got from Zari, who got it from Tahira...it's been a good resource!

Hi! Actually, I got it from Lucy of DC. I did however borrow the phrase 'hip and run' from Tahira.

OMG!!!
SO the woman JUST called me and I found out more although she wouldn't tell me who.
The dancer IS in Ft Worth, has a website, made it seem like she "does this all the time". FUnny there are only 3 people in Ft WOrth who have websites and I am one of them.
Also she said and this makes me so upset..."well none of us know anything about it so we wouldn't be able to tell if they were bad or not" "we just couldn't pass up that price"
Of course I replied, who would pass up 50% off. I tried to play it off that the dancer just didn't know better etc until she told me she has a website and did it all the time....

DAMN!

Hey NJ. I know that is frustrating. That happened to me recently and the lady even found one of my students and tried to get her to talk me into the lower price.

Hopefully she won't judge all dancers by who she hired.

I'm surprised it's a Ft. Worth dancer, too. I can't imagine who it would be. If it were Dallas we would have a good guess... :)

Hi Sandra...yes that ws my initial guess but i kinda know who it is based on our conversation.
Though does it really matter who? cause you can't oust them and they will get deffensive if you approach!
Sad thing is this person should "know better".
I don't care whether or not I get it. i have let go TONS but rarely do I have specifics such as this! THat there are people in the same community charging half the price!
Its bad for the overall community and even the woman stated that she was suprised by the price difference!
not good!

Ugh. Sorry to hear about this, Nadirah.

I'd fire up an email to the two ladies in question and discuss it with them - hopefully, it was done out of ignorance and not outright intentional undercutting.

I live in a small town and people always balk at my rates, but for crying out loud... I'm cheaper than a clown or band.

Quality entertainment comes with a price and while she argues they won't know any better - I wonder how clients like this would feel when Suzy Nippletassles shows up on their doorstep and offends their guests. Oh, they'll KNOW the difference then!

Even if the dancer in question is not Suzy Nippletassles, her unethical approach will catch up with her. Somewhere. Somehow.

Originally Posted by mmouse1534

Hi Sandra...yes that ws my initial guess but i kinda know who it is based on our conversation.
Though does it really matter who? cause you can't oust them and they will get deffensive if you approach!
Sad thing is this person should "know better".
I don't care whether or not I get it. i have let go TONS but rarely do I have specifics such as this! THat there are people in the same community charging half the price!
Its bad for the overall community and even the woman stated that she was suprised by the price difference!
not good!

Not Good indeed! BummerThere should be some way to let her know that her price cutting is hurting all of you; especially herself! I don't know what the professional way to handle the situation might be though?! I know if someone contacted Me and said hey what are you doing charging such and such? we can geta lot more and You are hurting yourself and all of us~~I would listen!I would feel bad and be embarrassed BUT: I would listen~~ Communication if done respectfully in a professional manner might work/ Que NO? I know it isn't easy but it is worth a try!Especially with more Future upsets at stake. Best of Luck. For what it's worth your post has enlightened me as to what the going rates should be. I had no idea!
I was in the dark but thanks to your post have seen the light,(smiles)
Communication is Vital! So you now have one more Happy Dancer who will definately Spread the Word within my own Dance Community! Thanks to you and Thanks to TH for her post too!~~~Sisters in Dance~~~
SELENA owner of AASP

Yup! I agree but unfortunatly we can't pull the ignorance card on this one. THis person is educated on the "professional" standards.
Can't do anything about someone who choses not to follow other than be frustrated! :-(

Originally Posted by mmouse1534

Yup! I agree but unfortunatly we can't pull the ignorance card on this one. THis person is educated on the "professional" standards.
Can't do anything about someone who choses not to follow other than be frustrated! :-(

Bummer!..c::

Originally Posted by mmouse1534

OMG!!!
SO the woman JUST called me and I found out more although she wouldn't tell me who.
The dancer IS in Ft Worth, has a website, made it seem like she "does this all the time". FUnny there are only 3 people in Ft WOrth who have websites and I am one of them.
Also she said and this makes me so upset..."well none of us know anything about it so we wouldn't be able to tell if they were bad or not" "we just couldn't pass up that price"
Of course I replied, who would pass up 50% off. I tried to play it off that the dancer just didn't know better etc until she told me she has a website and did it all the time....

DAMN!

wow. that just makes me shudder. i understand wanting some fun at a party. but why not give you the name or the website? if she is using that as an incentive ie this dancer is professional. but i have noticed that when quoting a lower prices, callers are reticent to give the name of the dancer who is offering that price. granted usually it is because said dancer doesnt exist and they are trying to get a lower price.
i've actually had to say to a caller, well then you won't see me. when they tried to go below what i was quoting.
well what if i offered you X. ( say my quote was 2X)
then you wont see me
what do u mean i wont see you
you wont see me as in i wont be there
2X is my set price. that's it. i'd be more than happy to direct you to the md dance directory etc etc.
the justification was the best part, the gig was over an hour from my house. gas ALONE justified the price.

A local dancer once pointed out to me that my prices were on the lower end of the spectrum for our area. At the time, I hadn't raised my prices in years and didn't even realize that rates had increased! She did it in a way to make me realize I was worth more than I was charging - not a "you are bringing down the community, you undercutter!!" way (I wasn't "undercutting," just on the very low end of acceptable). We were having an email communication about something else and in passing she asked why my rates were so low, because I was a talented dancer and deserved more than what I was asking. Then she told me what her rates were for the same shows, and I raised mine accordingly.

You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, you know? Sometimes, approaching the dancer charging the low rates in a "you are worth more" way is better and more effective than a "let me educate you about the standards in our community and undercutting" way. People will listen more, and get less defenisive, that way.

Just MO.

You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar

Oh yes! We have used this approach! Sad to say but the dancers with 30 some years expereince are charging the lowest around here.

No need to use vinegar as you say. We all know negotiation goes on behind the scenes but I was SHOCKED at the difference when told actual numbers!

Nothing much we/I can do besides uphold our own standards.

Originally Posted by mmouse1534

Sad to say but the dancers with 30 some years expereince are charging the lowest around here.

This statement caught my eye and I'm going to wander off on a tangent here, so here goes. When I started dancing, I was told by someone who had 20+ years of experience that the most I could ever get for private parties or bellygrams was 35.00. No matter the time limit, that was all anyone would pay, ever. Well needless to say it didn't take me long to realise I am worth WAYYY more than that and changed my prices accordingly. Which leads me up the thought path that maybe some of the ones who charge so little and should know better since they have years and years in the game so to speak, simply haven't moved on with the times. They don't know or refuse to acknowledge for whatever reason that we all have the right to be paid a reasonable fee for all the hard work we do. Maybe in some cases it's the "Back when I was young" syndrome. Just a rambling thought....

Viv,
I thought the SAME thing! Too funny!
The thing is we have all stated that we get more and we DO! SO why would you take less on purpose!?
Because thats "how it used to be"?
It could be an "excuse" but it IS just that...an excuse!

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Here's a link to my booking page:

Hire a Belly Dancer! ~ Booking Tamra Henna

*eta - it's modeled off of a format that I got from Zari, who got it from Tahira...it's been a good resource!

TamaraHenna
May I use some of the info on your page for my own? Like an outline? Please..l;,

Annwynn I asked her the same thing! ;-) Too funny!

Originally Posted by annwyn

TamaraHenna
May I use some of the info on your page for my own? Like an outline? Please..l;,

Well, since I got if from Zari, who got it from Lucy, with a little Tahira thrown in, at this point this is a Bhuzzer open source document - feel free!

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

A local dancer once pointed out to me that my prices were on the lower end of the spectrum for our area. She did it in a way to make me realize I was worth more than I was charging - not a "you are bringing down the community, you undercutter!!" way ... We were having an email communication about something else and in passing she asked why my rates were so low, because I was a talented dancer and deserved more than what I was asking. Then she told me what her rates were for the same shows, and I raised mine accordingly.

I've had the same conversation with dance friends a few times. One raised her prices a bit (should be higher, I think). Another stated she gets more gigs with the lower price and was going to stick with it. I said that it was up to her, but asked her to consider raising her price to X dollars; she was still lower than everyone I knew but she'd be at least a little closer to the value of the product.

Still another was doing an incredibly long show -- at least 30 minutes, sometimes extending for as much as an hour -- for $30. Her tips were fabulous, however. Although the amount wasn't guaranteed or anything, she never left without a minimum of $200 in tips, and often made as much as $300-$400; she simply danced until the tipping stopped! Her reasoning for continuing to be paid such an insulting wage was that she made so much in tips that the actual pay was a non-issue.

For myself, I just want to make as much as I can when I dance -- it might be fun work, but it is still work -- so I'll go with the going rate in my area. After all, if I can make $200 at one gig, why would I want to have to do two gigs to get the same as for one?

Deborah

if I can make $200 at one gig, why would I want to have to do two gigs to get the same as for one?

Amen Sister!

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Still another was doing an incredibly long show -- at least 30 minutes, sometimes extending for as much as an hour -- for $30. Her tips were fabulous, however. Although the amount wasn't guaranteed or anything, she never left without a minimum of $200 in tips, and often made as much as $300-$400; she simply danced until the tipping stopped! Her reasoning for continuing to be paid such an insulting wage was that she made so much in tips that the actual pay was a non-issue.

There's a girl like that in that Bay area, who undercut me for the rate of $1-per-minute. for some reason, it doesn't dawn on these people that they aren't really so clever. After all, even if this person made $300 in tips (which I doubt) she's not making any *more* than the other dancers in the area. The only difference is that instead if receiving it in a check, she is receiving it in singles during her performance.

It's so weird.

I'm sorry to hear this happened to you. I'm sure the person looking to hire a dancer will ultimately get what she paid for and regret not hiring you.