Thread: The ethics of name-dropping

Originally Posted by Sonja2

I think on my website I put who my primary instructor is first (and make it clear that is the case), then put I've studied in intensive workshops or private lessons with (list others here)... I don't see anything wrong with that, so long as it's true. I think it shows the variety a dancer is attempting to incorporate.

I know that when I looked for a teacher, I studied her bio very extensively--even researched the teachers SHE studied from. And I WAS interested in where/who/what she had danced in--it made me decide whether I felt i would have the opportunities I wanted with her. I really based alot on her website in terms of my decision to study with her--and no doubt about it, she's the best in my area by far, so I made the right decision!!!

I look at the bio too. I know the best idea is to look at recs from boards like here and go to the class, but I've been turned off by a bio enough that I haven't bothered with the teacher. I figure it's fair game for a measure, since you choose what goes on your pro website.

I wrote something about this in my blog and responded somewhere on tribe, but to briefly summarize, I don't care for misrepresentation. I list all my teachers on my blog in a links section, because I'd like to send people their way. Does that make sense? Some people I've deemed more influential than others, but those are the people I've studied with longer or more hardcore, like private lessons. Because of moving, I've had a lot of teachers. I genuinely like or respect all the ones who I've listed. I've taken at least 3 months of class withe everyone who's listed.

I don't consider a workshop true "studied with"; I think I compared the hyping up to people who claim they work at such and such a famous place, when really they had a rather short-term (summer) internship. I don't think it's anything to snuff at, but the reality is you weren't hired by the place and you didn't work there long term.

I keep a dance resume for my own interest, and I have everything set with dates and descriptions of what everything is. I have a workshop section, though it's rather small. I think it's fine to list that you go to workshops taught by so and so, but I think you need to be honest about your training.

Unless the people are from a particular area or can really back up a claim (like being Suhaila certified), I do raise my eyebrows when I read claims that they've studied under BigStar, when they haven't been dancing very long and also appear to have a more plausible teacher also listed (someone more local, for instance).

This topic comes up every one in a while, but I always find these thread interesting. I also saw the tribe thread that precipitated this particular posting. I agree there is a lot of misrepresentation of some sites (studied with someone, danced somewhere)...it is so weird when you see that and know it is not true. Not much we can do but let it go and just aim to present ourselves honestly.

Not sure if this should be a spin-off thread, but it is related. What constitutes a 'foundation' in a dance form? I have noticed several folks saying they have a 'foundation' or a 'backround' in a particular folkloric style. I recognize that this is probably just good marketing--it makes other dancers think there is depth, and it makes the general public think there is authenticity.

But does (for example) one Tunisian dance workshop, or even a year of classes with someone over here mean you have a background or foundation in Tunisian folkloric dances? To me it does not, but I am curious what others think. Maybe it is a different between saying you study something versus 'have a foundation' in it--to me, the latter implies an expertise or even ability to teach and explain it.

Like I said, these are the kinds of things I won't let keep me up at night, but it does rankle a teeny bit at times.

I look for well rounded instructors if I am going to workshop with them. I want to see their experience and hopefully a lot of it.
I fear dancers with little background try to fluff up their history instead of just building it one class at a time.
You can tell a well trained performer. And if somebelly actually studied with Carolena then you will most likely see it in their technique.

If I learned from a workshop instructor that I will use in my own style then I give them credit by adding them to my list of influences/training.

A good teacher never stops learning!

I agree with defining as to who you actually studied with and who you took workshops with. On an introduction I have loosely included that I have "trained with many instructors" but that is because if I defined it this way, the intro would go on forever and I would never get on the stage! But when you are creating a website and/or resume these differentiations should be noted. A listing of instructors as opposed to workshops should definitely be defined so that you can get a better understanding of the dancer. It wouldn't hurt to ask the dancer to define it to you more too if you are looking at people you know little about to get a better gist of their experience. Hopes this helps! ..l;,

Originally Posted by mihri

Absolutely! I agree with pretty much everything others have said here. I was just surprised to find my troupe on someone else's CV who has never danced with us *nor* taken a single workshop with us. Kinda made me wonder if I was missing a piece of the marketing puzzle or something. Also makes me wonder how many of the other names on the list are dancers who are as disconnected with this particular dancer as my troupe is.

This dancer has met us... twice. That is the extent of our relationship. Why we're on the studied/performed with list baffles me.

If she can make that claim from only meeting you twice, I must be a member of the troupe. I'm going to update my bio right now ..g.:

Originally Posted by amirahdancer

If she can make that claim from only meeting you twice, I must be a member of the troupe. I'm going to update my bio right now ..g.:

I'm going to update mine as well. I watched Estelle's "Enchanted Dance" video- so now I've studied with her, right?

(editorial comment: who you DO put is just as important as who you DON'T put).

Originally Posted by amirahdancer

If she can make that claim from only meeting you twice, I must be a member of the troupe. I'm going to update my bio right now ..g.:

Ooh, then I'm going to say I'm Mihri's protege! Because I actually touched her once! (I think I handed her a safety pin.)

There is a dancer here who puts Studied with and performed with on her bio even if she happens to have been in the same room. But she is also infamous for undercutting. . .

Personally, while i believe in truth in advertising, I also know that most of my audience - the GP - isn't going to know Fifi Abdo from a French poodle. What these listings show is that I am continuing to study and work on my art. this, in turn, justifies what many in the "real world" see as an obscene price for what is perceived as 20 mins work.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tigerb

Ooh, then I'm going to say I'm Mihri's protege! Because I actually touched her once! (I think I handed her a safety pin.)

Well, in that case, since I have hugged Dina, I guess I am her protege. Running off to update my website!!!..l;,..l;,..l;,

Well, I own the NY City Ballet workout DVD. I have even used it a few times. ;) So essentially I have a classical dance background, having trained with one of the top American ballet companies!

Um, right?

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

(editorial comment: who you DO put is just as important as who you DON'T put)

True that!

Originally Posted by Monica

Well, I own the NY City Ballet workout DVD. I have even used it a few times. ;) So essentially I have a classical dance background, having trained with one of the top American ballet companies!

Um, right?

..l;,..l;,..l;,

As always Bhuz is thought-provoking. Love the twists and turns of the minds of Bhuz-ers. Zorba's example is classic. His honesty is so very endearing.

I made Ansuya cry once ( sweet, sweet woman!)...so am I her Mom?

I have photos of all the teachers I have taken workshops with in the 6 years of studying up on my studio wall, right above the mirrors. I dont talk about them unless asked. I literally look up to these women every time I am in the studio.

Originally Posted by damiena

Well, in that case, since I have hugged Dina, I guess I am her protege. Running off to update my website!!!..l;,..l;,..l;,

wow, i ate lunch at the same table as suhaila at caravan........does that mean i'm her new bestest buddy? where do i put that on my resume.........l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

the GP - isn't going to know Fifi Abdo from a French poodle.

Humph! Most the the GP, upon hearing a name like that, would assume Fifi Abdo *is* a French Poodle! ..l;,

Originally Posted by zorba

Humph! Most the the GP, upon hearing a name like that, would assume Fifi Abdo *is* a French Poodle! ..l;,

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

[QUOTE=Monica;213227]Not sure if this should be a spin-off thread, but it is related. What constitutes a 'foundation' in a dance form? I have noticed several folks saying they have a 'foundation' or a 'backround' in a particular folkloric style. I recognize that this is probably just good marketing--it makes other dancers think there is depth, and it makes the general public think there is authenticity.

But does (for example) one Tunisian dance workshop, or even a year of classes with someone over here mean you have a background or foundation in Tunisian folkloric dances? To me it does not, but I am curious what others think. Maybe it is a different between saying you study something versus 'have a foundation' in it--to me, the latter implies an expertise or even ability to teach and explain it.QUOTE]

That's something else that burns me. Just cause you took a workshop with Famous Tribal Maiden, does not mean that you can dance tribal. I've seen the same thing for Bhangra. Bhangra is freaking hard and yet here they trying to teach it after 1 workshop? (If you can't tell, I have a person in mind) Next she'll say that she's a world-reknown hip-hop dancer cause she did the tootsie roll at her friends wedding.

I was thinking about this earlier as I slipped in to my afternoon siesta. (Heck of a long week out here!,s::) Because I actually do like knowing who people's teachers were. Locally it can tell me a lot, for example. I think part of the problem is people don't actually always list their main teacher!

Could there be a little bit of snark there? As in..."I took for seven years with a local no-name, and now I realize how I know so much more than her, and I have struck out on my own!". I do have to wonder. Is it a fear of competition with one's own former instructor? Or is it that they know other dancers will recognize big names, so there is that element of name dropping the original poster referred to.

Anyway, I don't want a fear of name dropping to limit people honoring their teachers and influences. I like it when people provide actual links to their teachers (I have done this, but just in my regular links list--I asterisk people I have studied, workshopped, or been otherwise influenced by). But, if provided, these lists or links should include local instructors, unless there was real damage done there or something. But if a local dance teacher gave you your start and early training, tell us! A student growing beyond their teacher is actually a positive from an educational perspective, so they must have done something right along the way.

well... guess i have to update my info as well...
english is not my first language, so i put "studied with" because it was... well... easier! also, here in italy it's not so easy to find good instructors, so sometimes the only way to learn is to take workshops... but - yeah - i'm NOT a tribal fusion belly dancer just because i took a weeklong with rachel brice!

On the other hand, we learn by being "cascaded to". When we(the troupe I belong to) were very new to ATS, had been watching DVDS ( and getting it all wrong)we invited a girl from Scotland who had been living in the US and dancing with Domba to come and do an intensive workshop with us...ooo..pennies dropped.
Then I was asked by a troupe in Wales to pass on what we had learnt so off I went to a farmhouse in the pricipality and duly did so.
I do mention , when asked about "expertise "(strong word for it that!) teachers I had done workshops with who are or danced/did courses with the "great originals".
I also mention orientale teachers who have caused the "pennies to drop": Khaled Mahmoud, Sara Farouk and Tracy Gibbs because they have defined so much for me.
In the end how else are we to learn and pass on!
Last week a student told me she could "see Khaled" in the way I danced certain steps ( we were both in the same show). If she is not deluded then I am so pleased all his and my efforts have not gone to waste.
I think it is important that we all understand what "studies with" means and that at the same time, we are acknowledging the skill of our mentor.

Originally Posted by sweetie_1916

I have a twist on this. What if you know when a dancer started dancing and suddenly their profile has "added" a couple of years? lol It's not like I can walk up to her and point "Liar, liar pants on fire!" lol

Heh heh--yeah, I love that one too.

Originally Posted by loribelly

well... guess i have to update my info as well...
english is not my first language, so i put "studied with" because it was... well... easier! also, here in italy it's not so easy to find good instructors, so sometimes the only way to learn is to take workshops... but - yeah - i'm NOT a tribal fusion belly dancer just because i took a weeklong with rachel brice!

You know, at the risk of gettin' shouted down here, I'm just going to reiterate and agree with what another poster said--I don't *necessarily* think there's anything wrong with "studied with," nor assume that it means anything more than shorttem study/workshop as long as there is some discretion used. Despite the sensitivity some express about this term, the dictionary definitions of "study/studying, etc." are NOT limited to long-term and intensive. For example. in Websters College Dictionary 4th Ed: "study: 1. to apply one's mind to attentively; try to learn to understand by reading, thinking, etc....5. To give attention, thought, or consideration to" Both of these definitions can be (though are not necessarily always) fulfilled by participation in workshop. Let's face it--most of us have been to some workshops or private lessons/short term learning experiences where we were extremely attentive, profoundly affected, and took away something from the experience that very much affected us as dancers...and others that were great and certainly enhanced us...but where we maybe weren't as touched or as attentive or didn't remember as much afterward.

I think the key is to denote some *difference* in someway between those who were teachers of primary/long-term instensive study, and those who were short-term/workshop type influences...and perhaps either leave off or find some other word than study (if you must include) those artists whose workshops you attended but were in that less attentive/less affected category. Don't just milk the names for "star power."

Haha I was having an email conversation with someone about the very same thing - she'd made a comment about someone's bio saying they had "worked in the Gulf" - it was a meaningless statement. I replied with my bio:

I have danced in Turkey (albeit in the garden and in the Kids Club, with a gardener who was once a Nesrin Topkapi backing dancer). He taught me a lot but no money changed hands. And I was in his show the same week (in front of about 10 tourists lol!).

I have danced in Greece for a living (in a nightclub, just social dancing, to get the party mood going, earned free drinks and tips, that's all), and also at a regatta in Greece a couple of years back (paid, thankfully).

I have danced many times in Egypt, the first time being in 1984 - it was drunken hotel-room dancing. Only once at someone else's request though, and I didn't get paid for it.

Hmmm. I have danced in Italy (under pressure, at a barbecue last year). I have danced in Wales lol. And Scotland hahaha. And of course London in me dad's garden.

And I have danced in Israel (while chambermaiding and listening to the radio).

OMG yes also at The Cavern in Liverpool with U2 tribute band NEU2 to "She Moves in Mysterious Ways".

Amazing CV I have really. Turkey, Egypt, Israel, Scotland, Wales, England. And in January I will be able to add New York to that list!
Just wait til I get on the "who I studied with" bit. I have a big DVD library here lol!

Seriously though, all the posts are good/relevant, but we are probably preaching to the converted. Those who prefer to "spin" the facts won't take any notice of what we have to say. They will just spin away, writing their own testimonials, putting reviews on their sites that were never published ('cos they were sycophantic rambles written by acolytes), and claiming to be a seventh-generation Arab immigrant.

I see people who can't string a literate sentence together calling themselves "writers", people who have never exhibited a single thing calling themselves "artists", people who have never used a light meter calling themselves "photographers" and so forth. So it's no surprise that we get all kinds of loonies claiming to be "professional dancers in big demand". I wish it wasn't so, but it is.

Originally Posted by tigerb

Ooh, then I'm going to say I'm Mihri's protege! Because I actually touched her once! (I think I handed her a safety pin.)

Oh ~ I now will bow down to you, dear protoge.

A memory of Suhaila's choreo videos made me think of this thread.

At the end she states something to the effect of: [if you've purchased this video and learned this choreography] "...I'd like to consider you my student..." That always struck me as an interesting thing to say at the end of an instructional video. I felt special. hee... But I didn't think that entitled me to say (years and years before I actually studied with her in person) that I had "studied" with Suhaila.

But in effect she gave me free license to say I "studied" with her! ;op

I always wondered at what point you stop (if you do) crediting your most influential dance figures/instructors...

This is a really good thread, I hate it when people give the wrong impression. The bio for my old site was bad so im making a whole different one for my new site. This is what ive done:

If I take classes, privates specifically, with someone at least once at week for at least a year I will claim to have trained with them. If I have only taken a few workshops or classes with someone I will say I attended classes by them.

As for the show thing I do mention that I have performed in shows that also featured this and that dancer. There are a few shows that I was invited to be in where I was really honored because the other performers were some of my role models. Im proud, I want to show it off! I do, however, dont like the 'performed with' term. Very misleading.

Another name dropping question... how about who you have performed FOR? Does it look bad if you name drop celebs or other vips you have worked for?

Originally Posted by amirahdancer

Oh ~ I now will bow down to you, dear protoge.

Yer both cracking me up y'know!!

UPDATE: the dancer who had my troupe listed on the CV actually *did* show up to a workshop of mine last month. Afterwards, we had a heart-to-heart about this issue and I think it made an impact. The dancer is just eager to be a success and thought that listing off every big (or even medium) name dancer who has been in the same room was a good way to do it.

This dancer now understands that it doesn't really work that way. ... and I think I've made a new friend. Either that or I'll find myself listed as a "mentor" on the CV after the one conversation. I'm optimistic though that a little name-dropping rehab will commence.

Originally Posted by mihri

Either that or I'll find myself listed as a "mentor" on the CV after the one conversation.

....I've had something like this happen. It was distressing because she was doing so many unethical things that I didn't want my name being associated with her. Hopefully your gal is just an enthusiastic beginner who will take your words to heart. :)

Maybe I should start giving "Special thanks" to everyone I've bought a costume from and let readers imagine the intimate connection we have.

They have provided me with great support afterall, except those who don't know a cupsize from a hole in the ground.

I did complete my dance resume early this year. the thing is that the more serious you get about the dance, the longer it gets. at this point i don't want to list everything. i do think it's important to list your main teacher or teachers and to list what styles specifically you have learned from said teacher. i also included all workshops attended and what they consisted of. since then i've taken probably 6 more workshops and the list is just too long. i didn't want it to read like all of those teachers were people i had studied extensively with. but at this point i can't list each workshop individually. i think going forward i'll just list that who i've given repeat business to or who i'm very inspired by. as for performing with, I don't list that. But then again I don't really give anyone my resume, it's just for me. I guess my bio will list some of this but not all. the web page is really for prospective students and clients and they don't know any of these names. I just think it's important to let people know what they are getting to make the price seem worth it I guess.