Thread: The ethics of name-dropping

We can all agree that networking and making connections is a very good thing (tm) in this business. It's a very community-driven business and it's good to know and experience lots of people. Along our path, we all find teachers and mentors we grow close to and credit some of our dance learning to. We also perform with other dancers or musicians sometimes, sharing the stage and a common goal for putting on a wonderful show.

However....

At what point can one claim to have "trained with" or "studied with" someone? One workshop? Several workshops spaced out over several years? A weeklong intensive? Months of weekly classes and regular workshops? Years even? In other words, when it is okay to drop names and claim someone as having been your teacher and a formative force in your dance education?

By the same token, at what point can one claim to have "performed with" someone else? Dancing separately but in the same show? Performing once together with no joint preparation? Coordinating, planning, and rehearsing a performance together? Months or years of being in an official partnership or troupe with someone? Where is the line between sharing a venue and "performing with" another dancer?

I ask because I have seen some rather questionable lists citing all of those dancers one has "trained with" or "performed with" by dancers with only a few years at best under their bellydance belts. It seems to me nearly impossible to "train with" dozens of teachers in the span of 2-3 years to the point where every teacher has had a lasting and profound effect on the dancer enough to claim them as a teacher. Similarly, I find it hard to believe that someone of the same experience has collaborated on so many projects as to have dozens of "performed with" credits racked up.

Thoughts and opinions are welcome.

I think it's ok to say you're 'taken workshops with' a list of people. That shows me you're a well-rounded & dedicated student of the dance.

But if I see 'trained with,' I would assume that if I asked that person about you, they would know who you are and be able to pick you out of a lineup.

Performed with??? Who cares? That is pure and simple namedropping, who you've 'performed with' doesn't say one damned thing to me about YOU as a dancer -- UNLESS you're listing troupes you've been a member of or highly respected dancers who've specifically chosen you to work with them. IOW, some kind of audition, real or de facto, that earned you that opporunity.

i've known one dancer who claimed 'training' with a well known tribal teacher......................the closest they ever got to that teacher was instructional videos............and maybe one workshop

I would agree with 'took a workshop with'. It's the truth, so that makes the most sense.

When I see lists like that, my first assumption is that the resume writer is not a wordsmith, and is simply using "studied with" and "trained with" interchangeably, to have a bit of variety in their copy. (Sounds more dynamic than "took a workshop with" even if the latter is more factual.)

My second assumption is that most of teachers the dancer has "trained with" have been in a workshop setting, especially if it is a relatively new dancer.

For me, if I had to evaluate a dancer's resume for whatever reason, I would like to see two categories: who they consider a long-term, or foundational, teacher; and then with whom they've taken workshops.

I have a list on my website of my "teachers". In it, I state exactly what/when I've studied with them; i.e. "Took a gypsy style workshop on 6 March 2005, and learned..."

Or "Took regular classes for about a year from...", "took regular classes for many years from...", etc.

Truth in advertising I hope!

The more claims a dancer makes in her bio, the more skeptical I am.

Ugh. I know there have been similar threads on this before too.

As far as "studied with," I don't really so much hang up on the specific wording of "studied with" vs. "took workshops with," blah blah blah so long as there is *some* kind of indication of which might be primary/longer-term study, and what is more likely workshops or the occassional weeklong intensive. I also, personally, don't include everyone I've ever taken a workshop or private lesson with with in my bios--I usually list those people I've either had ongoing relationships with (gone to multiple workshops or go see every year) or who, despite less contact time, in some way had a really profound affect on me as a dancer. (But...for someone who's only been at it for 1-3 years, that list may be kind of short to start with, so....)

Here's another one that amuses me: when dancers who had their primary/formative training for a few years with some dancer--maybe even someone who is pretty well-known regionally, but not necessarily one of the big marketing machine/national names--goes and takes, say, an intensive workshop with National Well-marketed Dancer A and a weekend workshop with Internationally-Known Dancer B...and suddenly, a bio pops up on her website that doesn't mention Regional Dancer-Teacher (ok, fine), BUT instead says: "Miss Dancy Pants has been studying dance for X many years and has studied with National Well-marketed Dancer A and Internationally-Known Dancer B. ..l;,

As far as "performed with..." oh geez--you really shouldn't say that unless you truly performed WITH the person--as in the individual's troupe or invited specifically by her/him to perform. Same goes for saying "danced in Cairo" if what you really did was, I dunno, participate in a fashion show or even dancing showcase at Ahlan Wa Salan--one sounds like you were a working dancer overseas. The other...clearly you were not....

BTW--as an aside, Ms Christina, I recently got my vid from the Sahra weekend in Milw. and actually got to see your whole performance. Hawt, hawt, hawt girl!!! I love it!

I agree with Lauren!

I think its a crying shame not to give due credit to your primary/formative teacher, well known or not.

Originally Posted by ruta21030

i've known one dancer who claimed 'training' with a well known tribal teacher......................the closest they ever got to that teacher was instructional videos............and maybe one workshop

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

BTW--as an aside, Ms Christina, I recently got my vid from the Sahra weekend in Milw. and actually got to see your whole performance. Hawt, hawt, hawt girl!!! I love it!

Tee hee.. thanks! I got my Dvd too but have been too busy to pop it in! Maybe on the plane to Colorado....

On my website (and in my dance cv, if I'm ever asked to produce one) I give credit to the teachers who had the most formative influences on me. I also give a list of the workshops I have taken over the years. I think that's fair.

Originally Posted by beafarhana

On my website (and in my dance cv, if I'm ever asked to produce one) I give credit to the teachers who had the most formative influences on me. I also give a list of the workshops I have taken over the years. I think that's fair.

Absolutely! I agree with pretty much everything others have said here. I was just surprised to find my troupe on someone else's CV who has never danced with us *nor* taken a single workshop with us. Kinda made me wonder if I was missing a piece of the marketing puzzle or something. Also makes me wonder how many of the other names on the list are dancers who are as disconnected with this particular dancer as my troupe is.

This dancer has met us... twice. That is the extent of our relationship. Why we're on the studied/performed with list baffles me.

I have to admit I was guilty of this in my "baby dancer" days. It was actually my very first solo performance at a hafla or something, and I named every teacher I had taken a workshop with in my bio...I cringe every time I look back on it! I'm sure no one remembers though...I hope...

ETA...I've never said I've performed with anyone though..that's pretty bad!

I think we forgive babies almost anything, Ejaghana.

Typically, I state that when I started, I took classes with several local teachers, and then began studying with Latifa (with whom I have been with for several years now and we have progressed to weekly private lessons, so I think that qualifies as studying with). I have also started taking Yasmin's professional classes weekly, but I feel like I need to be taking her classes for an extended period of time before I state that I study with her, as opposed to taking classes with her. Simple semantics probably, but in my mind, "studying with" implies a long term teacher-student relationship. If I take a workshop, I stated that I took a workshop with, not that I studied with. There are a lot of dancers who misrepresent themselves a lot with this, unfortunately. I am sure we all know a dancer or two who takes a class or two with a particular teacher and then claim they study with that person.

Had to check my website first... .w.:..l;,

I keep a list of all the workshops and classes I can remember, but I wasn't diligent enough about it to record when and how long...and it's too long a list to go back and retrofit.

I think to say you have trained/studied with someone, it should have been ongoing for some period (not just a workshop or two), and said person should be okay with you saying that you have trained with them. To have performed with someone, to me, means you have been onstage with them at the same time. Otherwise, you are "in a show with" or "danced at function A featuring dancer X." For everyone else, including those you've taken classes with, met, watched on YouTube, or whatever, I think saying you are "inspired by" is safe.

...although technically I think I'm guilty of dropping Amir Sofi's name, since I say I "danced with" him and it was only one night thing...but it was a darned good one! ;)

I really love the "She has danced on the Nile" type claim. Yeah..been there done that.
Danced at such and such a festival and omits the "open stage" bit..and auditioned for BDSS.
Back to the point..it's much fairer towrite or say attended workshops with, followed course than say,studied with but when all is said and done we all know the reality and names mean diddly-squat to the new student or GP.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

I really love the "She has danced on the Nile" type claim. Yeah..been there done that.
Danced at such and such a festival and omits the "open stage" bit..and auditioned for BDSS.
Back to the point..it's much fairer towrite or say attended workshops with, followed course than say,studied with but when all is said and done we all know the reality and names mean diddly-squat to the new student or GP.

I just put learning my craft at specialised workshops, and that my performance style has been inspired by the greats of bellydance....blah blah. I don't generally like to overblow the trumpet, and think that others should do that for you. I also don't like putting testimonials on my website, as again, this smacks of being a bit desperate. And another irritating thing that some do is to put every single gig they've ever had on their websites....going years back! Who cares?

Originally Posted by nasila

...although technically I think I'm guilty of dropping Amir Sofi's name, since I say I "danced with" him and it was only one night thing...but it was a darned good one! ;)

It was better than "darned good," Miss Nasila -- you had me practically in tears!

Deborah

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

And another irritating thing that some do is to put every single gig they've ever had on their websites....going years back! Who cares?

That drives me nuts! Really, who does care??? Besides, I've done so many performances over the last 30 years that I couldn't possibly list them all! Not only that, but if I actually did list all my gigs, people might be able to figure out how really old I am! .w.: We can't be having that . . .

I'm with Shira, "the more claims a dancer makes in her bio, the more skeptical I am." Besides that, I think what lizajuk wrote is very important, "when all is said and done we all know the reality and names mean diddly-squat to the new student or GP."

I've decided not to have a bio section in my website. I'll certainly sprinkle a few tidbits here and there throughout the narrative, but nobody hiring me for a gig gives even a hoot about my reasons for dancing, who I've studied with or how much from the heart I dance. If I were looking for an entertainer, I'd want to hire someone with experience and who presents him/herself well on paper. I wouldn't hire anybody with typos, grammatical errors or a bunch of fluffy stuff on his/her website.

Deborah

boy, do I sound like a meanie or what?

I think on my website I put who my primary instructor is first (and make it clear that is the case), then put I've studied in intensive workshops or private lessons with (list others here)... I don't see anything wrong with that, so long as it's true. I think it shows the variety a dancer is attempting to incorporate.

I know that when I looked for a teacher, I studied her bio very extensively--even researched the teachers SHE studied from. And I WAS interested in where/who/what she had danced in--it made me decide whether I felt i would have the opportunities I wanted with her. I really based alot on her website in terms of my decision to study with her--and no doubt about it, she's the best in my area by far, so I made the right decision!!!

Originally Posted by nasila

Had to check my website first... .w.:..l;,

That's okay, I checked mine too ..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by Sonja2

I think on my website I put who my primary instructor is first (and make it clear that is the case), then put I've studied in intensive workshops or private lessons with (list others here)... I don't see anything wrong with that, so long as it's true. I think it shows the variety a dancer is attempting to incorporate.

I know that when I looked for a teacher, I studied her bio very extensively--even researched the teachers SHE studied from. And I WAS interested in where/who/what she had danced in--it made me decide whether I felt i would have the opportunities I wanted with her. I really based alot on her website in terms of my decision to study with her--and no doubt about it, she's the best in my area by far, so I made the right decision!!!

As I was submitting my post above, I sorta felt bad, mostly because I know many wonderful dancers/teachers have this type of info on their websites. I guess I was thinking more from a potential client's perspective.

If I were looking for a teacher and knew exactly what I wanted as far as style, experience, etc, as you did, then I can see the value in a more extensive listing of the dancer's influences, with whom she's studied, and from whom she's taken workshops. I think the vast majority of brand-new-to-BD students don't have enough information to know what they want and really can't use that detailed info in making a decision to go with a given teacher.

I apologize for coming off as a smarty-pants.

Deborah

I have a twist on this. What if you know when a dancer started dancing and suddenly their profile has "added" a couple of years? lol It's not like I can walk up to her and point "Liar, liar pants on fire!" lol

Here's another twist, using myself as an example.

I've taken multiple workshops from several dancers, including Fahtiem, Aziza Sai'id, and most especially Alexandra King. Ok, that's nice - now can I tell you how much I actually *learned* from them, how much of it stuck? Just because my body was there doesn't necessarily mean I learned anything - especially when I was a baby chickadee dancer!

Even now this caveat can apply - I decided to "jump into the deep end" and tried a new instructor's advanced class just last week. Yep, I jumped into the "deep end" alright - and promptly drowned. It was good from the perspective that it opened my eyes to a level of layering that I didn't dream existed - and it made me really appreciate this same instructor's intermediate class which is a far better fit for me - and I can "see" what she's doing to prepare students in this class for what she's teaching in the advanced class.

So if I, or any other dancer claims to have taken "Advanced tassle twirling" with Suzee Nippletassles, that doesn't necessarily equate to being an expert at the technique! Suzee's class may have been WAY over the head of the student.

When people say "studied with", I don't assume anything more than a workshop or two. Workshops with amazing famous folk are so plentiful now, I guess that's where my mind goes. The verbage doesn't bug me, personally, though I can see why it could frustrate some. I have used "received instruction from" and friends have used "attended master classes with"... and I thought that sounded better than "taken a workshop from"... But saying studied or trained honestly doesn't bug me. I've noticed that some dancers will differentiate by saying "has studied intensively with".

I've also seen "has shared the stage with", or "has opened for Dina" and that's never bothered me especially, either. Actually, I'd like to be able to say that myself. :)

I do think people try to stretch these bios for all they're worth sometimes. If you performed on stage at the same time, that's "performed with". Otherwise, no.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

As I was submitting my post above, I sorta felt bad, mostly because I know many wonderful dancers/teachers have this type of info on their websites. I guess I was thinking more from a potential client's perspective.

If I were looking for a teacher and knew exactly what I wanted as far as style, experience, etc, as you did, then I can see the value in a more extensive listing of the dancer's influences, with whom she's studied, and from whom she's taken workshops. I think the vast majority of brand-new-to-BD students don't have enough information to know what they want and really can't use that detailed info in making a decision to go with a given teacher.

I apologize for coming off as a smarty-pants.

Deborah

I didn't take it personally No apology necessary, as far as I'm concerned. We're all sharing our opinions!

Originally Posted by mihri

I ask because I have seen some rather questionable lists citing all of those dancers one has "trained with" or "performed with" by dancers with only a few years at best under their bellydance belts. It seems to me nearly impossible to "train with" dozens of teachers in the span of 2-3 years to the point where every teacher has had a lasting and profound effect on the dancer enough to claim them as a teacher. Similarly, I find it hard to believe that someone of the same experience has collaborated on so many projects as to have dozens of "performed with" credits racked up.

Thoughts and opinions are welcome.

Just out of curiosity, does this have to do with a certain thread that was on tribe? Because that might be another interesting thing to discuss- I was also pretty shocked by what that person said.