Thread: Can we talk about "image" for a moment?

We've done this "image" thing before on Bhuz, of course, but there is a whole new crop of Bhuzzers who might like to join such a conversation, so here goes . . .

Our first topic of discussion will be that of the photographic image.

We use photos for our business cards, on our websites, on advertising flyers, etc. Photos really enhance these advertising media and good ones might help create more interest for us or for our events over materials that don't contain photos.

What do we want our photos to say about BD?

What do we want our photos to say about us as BDers?

To whom are we selling our services, as teacher, entertainer, etc., and do our pictoral promotional materials sell to that audience?

Are some images "too sexy," or "sexual" in nature and if so, what makes them that way? On the other hand, are some images too "mundane," and if so, what makes them so? Heck can we even come to a consensus about what "too sexy" is? (Yes, I know, I ended the question with a preposition . . .)

What is your criteria for the of images you use?

Your thoughts, comments, etc, please.

Deborah

I have multiple complaints about how dancers are drawn to this dance as a way to scream to the world about how sexy they are. I feel dancers are trying to scream louder and louder to each other with every passing day. It's all a bunch of noise at this point. Ok, you're the sexiest woman in the universe, now can we move on? Whatever happened to dance, and photos of dance movements? As opposed to boudoir poses and more push up pads then a bra should really house. I'm all for putting on makeup and sparklies and feeling good about yourself, but the constant screaming is getting ridiculous.

eta: I know I didn't exactly answer your questions, but I hope that gives a bit of a feel for where I'm coming from. I think more dancers need to promote themselves as dancers rather than sex kittens. If the imagery comes from a place of artistic inspiration vs. masturbatory motives, it's pretty easy to tell.

"Is" isn't a preposition, it's a verb.

Um, I like boudoir type poses, if they're nicely costumed and not really slutty. It's part of the fantasy we sell - people who are not Arabs generally hire a BDer to bring a touch of the "exotic" to their event and one of the implications of "exotic" is "sexy." This is why strippers, BDers, etc etc are all lumped together as "exotic dancers". Sorry, but it's true.

Personally I really like the "half-length body shot plus headshot" look for a card. You know what the person looks like, you know what they do. So much depends on who the cards are for. Cards for other BDers need to say something a little different than cards for the GP, IMO.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

"Is" isn't a preposition, it's a verb.

I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it, Zumarrad.

I kinda don't like the gratuitous boob shot on cards, you know the pictures where the head is cut off and all you see is the boobs and torso. To me it shouts "You're not getting a belly dancer, you're getting boobs!

Originally Posted by zumarrad

"Is" isn't a preposition, it's a verb.

Thank you, ladies. I knew something was wrong with that, but did it anyway. An example of the improper use of a preposition might be, "what did you do that for?" Yes?

Deborah

Let's see if I can contribute to a conversation on image without getting flamed....here goes.

OK. First of all, everything related to image and marketing is case-specific. Who do you want to attract? What are your favorite types of venues? What type of costumes do you wear? How would you describe your dance style and your persona onstage? Who are you, in essence? There. Now, I've got your juices flowing. No two dancers should answer the above questions the same way.

If a dancer truly is a sex kitten by nature, I wouldn't advise that she assume the role of Girl Next Door on a shoot - and vice versa. Discomfort in front of the camera is more blatantly awkward than the back of your thong creeping over the waistband of your Bella: at least you can PhotoShop out the latter.

As for types of images, I'm personally drawn to a good mix of pictoral styles on a dancer's website and promo materials. Show off your versatility in terms of props, hairstyles, and costuming looks.

To showcase versatility most effectively, I like to see a gallery broken down into components: studio, performance and maybe some fun candids. The studio gallery is where I think a dancer's figure, costuming style, face and features should be laid out on a silver platter. I actually love to see glamour photography and elegant posing in this section, as it goes with the "Hollywood" image that we embody. A performance gallery is where I like to see shots of a dancer in motion and interacting with her crowd. (That's why I find it redundant to see too many dance shots in a studio gallery). Finally, it can be fun to see a few candids: maybe a dancer goofing off between sets, embarassing a birthday boy, or hanging out with her idols post-workshop. Shows a glimpse into the "human" side.

My photog caught me in the middle of jokingly grabbing my own ass and making this delighted "Mmm-mmm, good!" face - I don't know if I'd ever be gutsy enough to post the image on a "serious" promotional site, but it is a hilarious, totally off-guard capture of my spastically self-aggrandizing sense of humor. My copy and the rest of my pictures are quite formal, so I may be able to get away with it......g.:

As for off-limits stuff, I'd stay away from ANY fetish-style photography if you're looking to get hired at parties where families, children or otherwise upstanding citizens will be present. I've seen a few blood-and-gore, latex-clad, S&M style pics on "bellydance" sites in recent history....definitely not cool. Get a separate modeling page for that. Even burlesque pictures (if you perform both) on a BD page might be enough to deter clients. In terms of sexiness, a strong (or even gorgeously languid) pose and total confidence trump Maxim-style parted lips, any day.

(cont'd)

In terms of what makes things too "mundane," the answer (to me) is simple: does the same exact pose appear a thousand times on every dancer in the tri-state area's website? Or, if you are going for an ultra common pose (such as what Veena and Neena would call "temple arms," overhead with palms together), are you doing anything cool to subtly re-invent it or make it yours? This is why I love to shoot with fashion photographers instead of dance photographers. They take my movement vocabulary and apply their own lens to it, hybridizing the conventions of "bellydance" with the conventions of "fashion."

Also verging on "too mundane" is inadequate attention to hair and makeup. Studio lighting can wash you out like nobody's business, so what feels like full-on porn star makeup can actually look fantastic on film. The girls at the MAC counter have given me some indispensible advice: don't be afraid to use 'em!

Then again, my idea of mundane is totally subjective: tons of dancers stick with simple traditional poses and look fantastic.

As for a consensus....meh. Not gonna happen, realistically. I think we can all agree that it's not cool to be naked on our promotional materials. But one person's glamour is another person's trash. Everything that's not on either extreme is definitely up for interpretation and for the client to decide. Given what's going on in Jacksonville, we could be dressed like nuns and somebody will still have a beef. Since I only display work that I can take pride in, I try not to lose any sleep over the rest.

In my eagerness to vent, I may have come across a bit prudish. I would just like to clarify, for the record, that I'm ok with sexy. Sexy is healthy. I just don't like shots that seem desperate to prove or that make me go huh? why didn't that get sent to her husband for Christmas instead of getting put up on her website? The shots where a dancer is laying on her back don't appeal to me, for example. They just don't make sense to me. Not that I think every photo has to be an action shot, variety and creativity are cool. The "look at my boobs" ones don't make sense to me either, except to say, "look at me, I'm desperate for praise and attention". Samira's photo from the costume thread keeps popping in my head. It's super sexy, and very positive at the same time. No apologies, but no desperation or degradation either. If you want an example of very powerfully sexy, but with class and taste, this is it, imo:




sorry to drag you into this, Samira, but I like the pic! :)

Yes, that's a delicious pic. Great blue, too.

When I first saw that photo is was..BLAM...I mean that it was just that visceral. Why??...the contrast of the ivory sculpture that is Samira's bod to the saturated blue of the costume...got my attention right away. After that..my focus went to the hair, the eyes and the elegance of line. When I see the whole effect on a card...I am going to assume I am hiring an artistic person who is not afraid to be a bit edgy but will always be elegant and in control. I dont know Samira at all...but I bet I am right.

What bothers me are the sprawled on the floor, come hither poses that speak more to sex than to dance. I would put em up in my studio office, but not on a card for the GP.

Originally Posted by joanneraks

In my eagerness to vent, I may have come across a bit prudish. I would just like to clarify, for the record, that I'm ok with sexy. Sexy is healthy. I just don't like shots that seem desperate to prove or that make me go huh? why didn't that get sent to her husband for Christmas instead of getting put up on her website? The shots where a dancer is laying on her back don't appeal to me, for example. They just don't make sense to me. Not that I think every photo has to be an action shot, variety and creativity are cool. The "look at my boobs" ones don't make sense to me either, except to say, "look at me, I'm desperate for praise and attention".

Yeah....I'm gonna have to agree with you there. Back layouts in the context of a backbend with some cool arm gestures make complete sense to me, but it can be very difficult to pull off laying on your back (especially if staring right into the camera) without communicating something else, intentional or otherwise. (Though I do love Eshe's reclining poses in her "veil tent" shoot). I've seen some very cool stuff where a dancer reclines on her side on an antique chaise lounge or whatever. Goes along swimmingly with an updated Grande Odalisque aesthetic.

I think half of the "look at my boobs" phenomenon could be unintentional. A lot of us have no modeling experience and, therefore, might subconsciously default to emulating what we see in Cosmo, Maxim and other influential magazines. This is where it pays off to practice a series of poses in front of a mirror, work with several photographers, and develop a great rapport with each one. The more confidence you feel in front of a camera, the more easygoing and natural your poses will be - you will feel less of a need to try too hard on a shoot. Also, the better you know your photog, the more honest s/he will be about how you look in a pose. My friend Julia, who's working on a series with me to eventually use in an art exhibition, tells it like it is: "Chin up, Lisa! You look like you're sniffing your armpit." Stuff like that. Buzzkill for 2 seconds, then you re-adjust, then BAM! Success.

As for the other half of the "look at my boobs" phenomenon? I think these folks might be better off venturing separately into the realm of budoir photography and sparing the rest of us....but to each their own, I suppose. The best course of action, methinks, is to establish the distance between us and the Nipple Tasslers. If you're an absolute class act, the quality of your work will speak for itself!

What bothers me most is marketing hype (QUEEN of the NILE, danced with x, y, z, 10 years experience)--when the final product (the dancing) disappoints.

Bad dancing is still the worst thing for belly dance.

You can market something well, but people aren't stupid. In the end, if you take your friends to a restaurant and they see hand-flapping suzy and her cheap costume and bad zilling--it will take 10 good performances to deprogram that out of your friends' minds. A good web presence and nice photos can't undo it either.

*blush, blush* Boy, was it a surprise to see my picture on this thread. Thanks you guys!

Originally Posted by anala

...I am going to assume I am hiring an artistic person who is not afraid to be a bit edgy but will always be elegant and in control. I dont know Samira at all...but I bet I am right.

I think from an outsider's hiring perspective you're right on the money, Anala - although it's likely best answered by someone other than myself- who has seen me perform a good bit...and they will likely add that I'm a total dorky goofball with lots of "Dory" (Finding Nemo) moments who is easily amused and loves to make people laugh. So that whole "elegant and in control" image is truly just that; an image. ..c::
I chose not to use that image on my business card or the first page of my website, though. Some Americans hiring for family parties are not looking for "sexy" as a main feature of their entertainer. They're not my main market, but still important to consider as far as marketing choices, in my mind.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

What bothers me most is marketing hype (QUEEN of the NILE, danced with x, y, z, 10 years experience)--when the final product (the dancing) disappoints.

Bad dancing is still the worst thing for belly dance.

You can market something well, but people aren't stupid. In the end, if you take your friends to a restaurant and they see hand-flapping suzy and her cheap costume and bad zilling--it will take 10 good performances to deprogram that out of your friends' minds. A good web presence and nice photos can't undo it either.

Yeah, I do wonder how some of these folks end up on the local morning news or get the newspapers to write feature stories about them. Do they write excellent releases, send out slick press kits and follow up with a solid pitch? Or do they show up outside the local news station in their Turkish Airport Special, hold every anchor hostage while performing raqs beaver and trumpet about how they invented Egyptian style bellydance?

Someone like, dare I say, Jodette - doesn't strike me as somebody who knows how P.R. works. Leads me to believe it's an intriguing combo of marketing hype, notoriety, and annoying persistence that creates those ample opportunities for exposure that the rest of us capable and deserving performers could only dream of.

Unfortunately, the great marketing/sh*tty product dichotomy doesn't just exist in bellydance. Think late-night infomercials, used car salesmen, Starbucks touting its new Frappuccino as a panacea for suburban ennui. That's just the free market for ya.

At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding....I'd say the best way to prove your standing as a great dancer is to gather tons of testimonials from clients, show off any extraordinary credentials or any awards you may have won, and post videos of yourself on your site. There will always be somebody who's swayed by the Queen of the Nile....and likewise, there will always be a consumer who likes to check the facts before they make the investment (in you).

Back to the scheduled conversation on images, Deb

As soon as I read the first post, I confess that my immediate and oh-so-sophisticated response was "PLEASE no ugly, outdated, school-photo style tie dye backdrops!" ..l;, ..l;,

Don't think my brain has woken up to the extent of the other posters in this thread. ..l;,

Originally Posted by halftruths

As soon as I read the first post, I confess that my immediate and oh-so-sophisticated response was "PLEASE no ugly, outdated, school-photo style tie dye backdrops!" ..l;, ..l;,

Don't think my brain has woken up to the extent of the other posters in this thread. ..l;,

C'mon....you've already taken about a dozen steps in the right direction, solely upon admission that you hate tie-dye backdrops. Give yourself some credit where credit is due ..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Let's see if I can contribute to a conversation on image without getting flamed....

No flaming allowed! I think we're all interested in what everyone has to say!

Deborah

Okay, let's use some of the ideas posted on this topic to get more specific (and/or generate more discussion).

Re: types of gigs we are seeking . . .

It seems that printed promotional materials can be easily targeted for a specific audience; for example, maybe a bit on the "edgy" side for a nightclub venue, and maybe a bit more happy-bouncy-ain't-this-great-fun for family birthday parties. But what about websites?

For websites, is there a difference in marketing to the GP vs restauranteurs, classroom students vs workshop attendees, etc, as far as photographic images are concerned? And if there is a difference, how can we (or even can we) market ourselves to these different audiences on one website? What I mean is, are the images we select for various types of work different depending upon the work we're seeking and how can we sell "sexy" vs "family" on one site? Do these questions even make sense?

Deborah

Yes, they do. I think a gallery of thunbnails would work well for this. Versatility is a good thing in an all around dancer I think the first visual on the index page should be pretty conservative, but a nice easy to find link to more photos in different moods and settings would be effective.

Deborah, I think the question makes perfect sense. I don't think there is a science to it and we each have to choose what seems to make sense for ourselves, what we are looking for from the dance and how we feel the dance should be presented.
On my first page I chose pictures that show the styles of dance I do, show my face and part of my body, but not overtly "sexy" shots.
On my booking page for belly dance I show a face shot, a conservative costume shot and a shot with a live band in bedleh. I think it covers "all the bases".
My gallery has a couple of the more "sexy" shots, so they are there, but not featured prominently on my pages. If people are looking for "sexy" they can see if they feel I'll fit the bill, but if they want family friendly they'll see plenty of that. I feel "sexy" can scare away "concerned about family friendly", but "family friendly" does not scare away "looking for orientalist fantasy" as long as they see you have what they consider to be potential for sexy; which is of course completely open to individual interpretation.
My Bollywood page shows different costumes, emotions and moods, mostly live shots- none overtly "trying to be sexy".
In my mind I want my dance marketing pictures to show something of what they might see in a show if they hire me. While they might see floorwork in an appropriate setting they are unlikely to see me modeling costumes while reclining. I think these sorts of photos can be absolutely beautiful - Eshe's certainly are- I simply choose to present photos that more closely represent what I do if someone hires me.
Separate from that, I guess that while I see "sexuality" and "sexy" as a natural part of this dance, "overtly *trying* to be sexy" is different from that and therefore not a part of what I choose to do in marketing.

Some Web sites organize around their target customer base, rather than their product/service offering. For a dancer that might translate as: Looking for classes? click here; Nightclub promoter? click here, etc. Each section would have the appropriate copy/imagery.

Here is a weird thing and it just might be me, if an instructor doesn't have a candid photo of her teaching classes on her class page, I am going to wonder if she does. Or if she teaches in costume, which is a whole 'nother thread!

{{{HUGS}}}

Definitely good, solid questions, Deborah. And yes, they do make sense ..g.:

Once again, there's no universal answer on this profoundly subjective topic. (If there was, we'd all get rich doing this!) Each of us have our own personalized dance styles, onstage demeanors, venues/clients of preference, and overall images to project. Therefore, every one of us should ideally have a different body of images on our respective websites. Once again, there's no true right or wrong: only effective or ineffective vis-a-vis the type of gigs we wish to score.

Closest thing I've got to a standardized, universal answer? First, figure out who YOU are in reference to the above-listed factors. Secondly, within your own parameters, demonstrate your own versatility. Show as many different facets of your image as you can without looking devoid of personal identity. I think too many of us are too eager to please everyone (not necessarily a bad thing) and, in so doing, neglect to develop an effective "brand" or, in artistic terms, what reads as a true signature style.

Say, for instance, you're a high-fashion gal at heart. Good. Do some studio shoots with interesting poses, editorial stylings and cutting-edge costumes. To communicate that you're also viable for family friendly crowds or unpretentious gatherings, you may want to post some great performance pics of you smiling, schmoozing and playing games with a crowd. Display as much versatility in costuming as you feel comfortably represents your style. A picture of you in a fringe-y Bella with chiffon gores in the skirt is a GREAT compromise if you're not the old-school costuming type, but still want to portray that you can do a "classic" look within your parameters.

I guess because I have a B.A. in English/Writing and some experience in public relations, I find that by limiting this conversation strictly to images, we overlook an equally important part of our marketing strategies. I strongly believe that you can successfully attract almost any crowd through action-oriented, descriptive language (in your bio) and by engaging the reader via 2nd person narrative (your page on booking/shows). I also think that written copy is the one area that most of us dancers are sorely lacking in - boring or poorly written copy is potentially one of the biggest detractors from getting audiences hyped up over what we do.

Now, great images and solid copy? THAT is an unstoppable combination. Images attract the viewer's eye. Persuasive copy reels 'em in.

Perhaps, I need to start my own thread....

Originally Posted by anala

I am going to assume I am hiring an artistic person who is not afraid to be a bit edgy but will always be elegant and in control. I dont know Samira at all...but I bet I am right.

You have a keen gift of observation Anala. Her dance persona is all that, interspersed with an impish grin and a sense of humor!!

[QUOTE=SamiraShuruk;213140I think from an outsider's hiring perspective you're right on the money, Anala - although it's likely best answered by someone other than myself- who has seen me perform a good bit...and they will likely add that I'm a total dorky goofball with lots of "Dory" (Finding Nemo) moments who is easily amused and loves to make people laugh. So that whole "elegant and in control" image is truly just that; an image. ..c::[/QUOTE]

dorky goofball... ..l;,..l;,..l;,

Good comedy is always about control..and impecable timing!

Re: Dorky Goofball...

I call it the "gold fish bowl syndrome"...ever noitce that a gold fish is constantly suprised by the castle in the middle of his world? You can almost hear him say..."Oh, look, it's a castle" as he revolves around the bowl.

Originally Posted by anala

Good comedy is always about control..and impecable timing!

Re: Dorky Goofball...

I call it the "gold fish bowl syndrome"...ever noitce that a gold fish is constantly suprised by the castle in the middle of his world? You can almost hear him say..."Oh, look, it's a castle" as he revolves around the bowl.

OMG! How thoroughly embarrassing. That's TOTALLY me- only I'm delighted every single time, so it should read "*happy* dorky goofball with goldfish bowl syndrome"

Where's my keys? My car? My purse? Oh well, lets dance!

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Here is a weird thing and it just might be me, if an instructor doesn't have a candid photo of her teaching classes on her class page, I am going to wonder if she does. Or if she teaches in costume, which is a whole 'nother thread!

{{{HUGS}}}

That's a really good idea. I should get someone to take a picture of me teaching. Usually I'm the one taking pictures so it doesn't happen often. In fact, there are whole books of vacation photos without a single shot of me. I was there. Really. ..cr.:

I also like to see pictures of students on the instructor's website. I know that can be touchy if the students don't want to be on the web and all but I think it really helps the curious would-be-student to see pictures of people who look like her (or him). I've heard several students say that they were afraid of taking classes because they felt too thin/old/fat/young/skinny/clumsy/etc. to take belly dance. They figured that all belly dance students must look like perfect Barbie dolls. ..l;,

I'm convinced that happy, confident students are the best form of marketing for teachers.
..g.:

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Definitely good, solid questions, Deborah. And yes, they do make sense ..g.:

Once again, there's no universal answer on this profoundly subjective topic. (If there was, we'd all get rich doing this!) Each of us have our own personalized dance styles, onstage demeanors, venues/clients of preference, and overall images to project. Therefore, every one of us should ideally have a different body of images on our respective websites. Once again, there's no true right or wrong: only effective or ineffective vis-a-vis the type of gigs we wish to score.

Closest thing I've got to a standardized, universal answer? First, figure out who YOU are in reference to the above-listed factors. Secondly, within your own parameters, demonstrate your own versatility. Show as many different facets of your image as you can without looking devoid of personal identity. I think too many of us are too eager to please everyone (not necessarily a bad thing) and, in so doing, neglect to develop an effective "brand" or, in artistic terms, what reads as a true signature style.

Say, for instance, you're a high-fashion gal at heart. Good. Do some studio shoots with interesting poses, editorial stylings and cutting-edge costumes. To communicate that you're also viable for family friendly crowds or unpretentious gatherings, you may want to post some great performance pics of you smiling, schmoozing and playing games with a crowd. Display as much versatility in costuming as you feel comfortably represents your style. A picture of you in a fringe-y Bella with chiffon gores in the skirt is a GREAT compromise if you're not the old-school costuming type, but still want to portray that you can do a "classic" look within your parameters.

I guess because I have a B.A. in English/Writing and some experience in public relations, I find that by limiting this conversation strictly to images, we overlook an equally important part of our marketing strategies. I strongly believe that you can successfully attract almost any crowd through action-oriented, descriptive language (in your bio) and by engaging the reader via 2nd person narrative (your page on booking/shows). I also think that written copy is the one area that most of us dancers are sorely lacking in - boring or poorly written copy is potentially one of the biggest detractors from getting audiences hyped up over what we do.

Now, great images and solid copy? THAT is an unstoppable combination. Images attract the viewer's eye. Persuasive copy reels 'em in.

Perhaps, I need to start my own thread....

I think maybe you should, or even write an article for Gilded Serpent - this is an area that lots of people could benefit from some direction (me included!)