Thread: OVER-cutting? rant

So, OK...I sorta feel like I or someone else has posted about this before, but anyway: I've lately been getting absolutely NO calls back on gigs. Once people hear my prices, that's it. They never call back. I often get that crestfallen reaction, like they were expecting me to ask for ten bucks plus a side of fries. The latest was this morning, when someone called asking for a full hour divided between a lesson and a performance, and would not be dissuaded from the full hour. I quoted her what I feel is the most reasonable price I can offer for that, including travel expenses. The result? Disappointed reaction, no dice, claimed that "her sister booked someone else already, sorry". This is a variation on a theme.

I understand all the usual stuff about how the g.p. doesn't realize what we're worth, etcetera, but really...am I charging too much? What's going on here? I'm not charging huge prices, just charging what I've been told is standard by the pros who've gone before me in my area. I certainly do not want to undercut anyone, especially my betters! And I don't want to dance for less than market rate, because besides hurting others, it makes me feel like crap. I'm so irritated about it. So sick of hearing that disappointment in peoples' voices, after they ask for some monumentally long performance. What can I do to get a little retention here?

Annoyed, wishing someone would cut me a break,

- Leela

feelin' ya

The economy is really sucking right now so people may have less expendable income for belly dancers right now.

We may have to get creative with the services we offer.

Yeah, Mish Mish, I've thought of that. I want to be understanding of that, but what should we do? Should we drop our rates a bit? I'd be willing to do that if I knew that other dancers wouldn't burn me at the stake, you know? It might be worth doing, but I'd need to talk it through with others. Like you guys. Thoughts?

- Leela

Leela, I'm feeling your frustration and asking myself the same questions lately. I'm getting a fair number of one-time promotional appearances at clubs and restaurants (seems like a lot of places are looking to break up the monotony and draw new crowds without having to commit to a weekly entertainment schedule)....but private parties are screeching to a halt. Same deal. They'll outright say to me "Oh...the other girls are asking $150 for a 1 hour show."

If you're charging what the established pros charge, then don't touch your rates. Period. I don't think there is such a thing as overcutting. There are higher-than-average rates, but it's the client's prerogative to drop the extra $$$ or not. Nobody gets hurt when a dancer charges a little extra to reflect the price of gas or even her level of expertise.

In the mean time, try not to take the "dry spell" for private parties personally. Let's face it: the economy is in the crapper right now. You can't turn on the news without seeing some story about housing foreclosures and gas prices, or a segment on how to cut your daily costs. If Jane General Public has $250 to spend either on the necessities or on entertainment for her upcoming party, it's a given that we're the first "luxury item" she'll most likely eliminate. Jane G.P. is already riding her bike more often (her office may have a shower, a changing facility and bike rack to accomodate this new commuter trend), foregoing the annual vacation (hence the common new term "stay-cation") and ditching the fancy lattes (did you know Starbucks is closing 600 stores nationwide?). Sad but true: you can still have a great time at a party without a dancer.

As for the rest, I just try not to get pissed that a decent handful of dancers in my area are posting dirt-cheap rates in boldface on their website, or worse, telling restaurant owners that they'd be more than happy to dance for gas money. I simply do everything I can to distance myself from the bargain basement. (If that makes me uppity, then so be it.)

Keep doing everything right and be prepared to wait it out through some potentially tough times. I don't know anybody who hasn't been at least somewhat affected by the skyrocketing prices of, well, everything.

Have you compared your rates on Samira Shuruk's site to your own city AND comparable cities (similar size/cost of living)?

Have you compared them to the rates for hiring a clown, magician, etc for a children's party?

If you're right in line on BOTH those sets of numbers, I'd say hold firm for a while. I go through cycles where I get no calls, cycles where I get calls only from people who were hoping I'd dance for next to nothing, and cycles where I'm performing every weekend at my full rate and getting big tips on top of it!

No doubt the economy hurts us BUT prices aren't going down for food, cars, clothing, etc. Once you lower your price, it's hard to raise it again and in some communities that act could trigger a downward spiral. Also, you'll have to dance more gigs to make the same amount of money.

If people are wanting to pay $20 and some fries, lowering your rate by a reasonable margin isn't going to help anyway.

Originally Posted by flimflamgirl

Yeah, Mish Mish, I've thought of that. I want to be understanding of that, but what should we do? Should we drop our rates a bit? I'd be willing to do that if I knew that other dancers wouldn't burn me at the stake, you know? It might be worth doing, but I'd need to talk it through with others. Like you guys. Thoughts?

- Leela

I have no creative marketing ideas for belly dancers in this bad economy. I don't perform for pay right now, so others are probably better sources of ideas. At some point, you just have to turn a profit as a performer--since our costs have gone up too--just driving to a gig is prohibitive given the cost of gas!

Hold your prices. It's likely simply a combination of people having less money due to the economy and just being slow because of summer (everyone goes on vacation). It will pass.
It's possible you have a new undercutter in your area. These gals never last long, though. They burn themselves out trying to scramble to get all the cheap gigs.
Be patient- in the meantime you've got time to do stuff like work with new music, edit music, practice, maybe practice with a new prop...
It's frustrating, but it will turn around.

I agree that you should hold your prices. Once they go down, they rarely go up very easily.

Hi Leela,

Its hard to say what you should do without knowing what your rates are but I doubt you should lower them. Do you have your rates and show descriptions listed on your website? I've done this for the last year or so and I've found it helps weed out most of the "$50 per hour" callers early on. In fact I can't remember the last time I got one of those calls. I've also found that fixing up my website in general has really helped. A lot of people mention it when they call.
I've actually been doing really well with parties this summer. Still I probably only end up actually doing the gig for half (or less) of the inquiries that come through. The rest I am either unable to do or they never call back.
Try to treat each call/email as just an inquiry. Give the caller information about what you do, your rates and don't get invested in "getting the gig" already. If they don't book you on the spot just thank them for calling, politely let them know that it is best to give you 2 weeks notice for booking ( or whatever ) hang up, and forget about it.
Some people will call me back and hire me weeks after the first inquiry and many I never hear from again.

Hi Mariyah - Thanks, that is helpful, especially the part about the two weeks notice. I am very polite and professional, and do treat each call as merely an inquiry. It's not so much that I'm focused on getting the gig, it's only that I'm feeling a little discouraged lately. For a while the parties were rolling in, and suddenly, nada. I don't really take it personally, but I do wonder if I'm doing something wrong. It's hard to know when bookings happen in such a remote way (phone calls out of the blue).

- Leela

For whatever it's worth...I am hiring an Elvis Impersonator for the Intensive this year, for an hour long "meet & greet" and a 2 song performance.

I couldn't find anyone for less than $500. Indeed, some of the quotes I received were for $1200!! For an hour!!

We ended up attending an Elvis Impersonator contest and hiring someone out of Long Beach. And yes, we are still paying $500. Made me seriously want to switch professions and become an Elvis. Bwhahahaha.

My point is that I learned really quickly that there are other entertainers that charge much much more than bellydancers. If the economy is affecting folks, then the ones who would normally hire an Elvis might suddenly see bellydancers as a much more reasonable alternative.

Truly, hold your rates. All of you deserve more.

...and don't rule out that some/ a lot of your inquiries may be "fishing" from other entertainers in your area.

this happens in every industry so don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by sabrinabellydancer

...and don't rule out that some/ a lot of your inquiries may be "fishing" from other entertainers in your area.

this happens in every industry so don't take it personally.

Yeah, I got kind of a weird one in the midst of some PBD drama....found it a little bit odd that this person called to book me for a big event with less than 24 hours notice, wouldn't stop calling until I picked up, and started asking tons of questions about who else in the area I'd recommend when I told her I'd be out of town the next day. (She pressed me for details even when I pretended not to know anybody in my area).

Could've been legit, but certain calls do make my Spidey Sense tingle....and that was definitely one of them. I totally agree with Sabrina: always be on your guard if you get a funny feeling from a "client." Your intuition exists for a reason.

Everyone has given the BEST advice...take it.
I am usually deadly slow in the summer and I don't start booking again until late Sept. This year I've been SLAMMED with parties, weddings, birthdays, girl's nights (you know...the combo lesson and show)...and it's been like this since late winter...
Why? Dumb luck probably...but...I also RAISED my prices right after the new year. The nickle-n-dime callers don't usually bother with me...those that do are told to call a signing telegram agency...those that want quality, hire at the asking price.
I am finding that more people are entertaining at home in the bad economy...thus the need for entertainment.
Hang in there...it just may be a slow season where you are...
Gia

I think it certainly has something to do with the economy - I have been doing fairly regular business this summer, but I have noticed that the number of inquiries that lead to nowhere has increased a lot! A lot of people will even go back and forth with me a little bit about the type of show, etc, and then disappear.

I think it has something to do with them cheking their party budget and realizing they have to cut something out - and it's usally the bellydancer.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Hold your prices. It's likely simply a combination of people having less money due to the economy and just being slow because of summer (everyone goes on vacation). It will pass.
It's possible you have a new undercutter in your area. These gals never last long, though. They burn themselves out trying to scramble to get all the cheap gigs.
Be patient- in the meantime you've got time to do stuff like work with new music, edit music, practice, maybe practice with a new prop...
It's frustrating, but it will turn around.

Thanks Samira for this,I know this thread isnt about Japan, but I feel like Flimflam most days- weeks. We need an encouraging voice like yours HOLD YOUR PRICE! I need to hear that more often. Thank you

:) Hugs to you Annwyn.

I agree with Samira, hold your rates. Charge what you think is fair for who you are and what you do. We all go through slow times due to a number of different things, it doesn't mean you have to sell yourself for cheap to book jobs. Its hard to come back up with your prices once people know you have been charging less.

Hey can I charge $500 since I'm an 'Elvi-za'? Geez! Anyways, as for the wanting someone for an hour thing, I explain to people that no one wants to see the same dancer dancing for an hour non-stop! Boring! Of course this doesn't mean there aren't dancers II would personally love to watch for well over an hour but most people get the point. Furthermore people are there to enjoy the party and mingle with eachother- a short show is a fun surprise- having it drag on forever could make people feel trapped like they have to sit there and watch the whole thing whether they want to or not-- I explain my recommendation is 1 dancer for twenty minutes, or 2 dancers for thirty minutes (duet, two solos, then both dancing improvised)-- anything longer than that-- more dancers and more money which is really only necessary for a bigger event. Almost everyone is more than happy with those options-- from time to time I have added on a teaching segment as well but that's been pretty rare.

Thanks, everyone, for good advice. Yeah, no way am I dropping prices. Too tired to go on...but thank you...more later....zzzz.....

- Leela

Good that you're not dropping your prices!

It's true that the economy sucks right now - so maybe you kick in a costume change for nothing extra. But stick to your pricing guns...

An example (and I know - diff industry/etc. BUT...)
I own part of a limo company in the area. We charge slightly higher prices than everyone else - but offer better service/percs and have fully trained/certified drivers. The economy plus fuel prices have hurt us a bit, but we have not/will not go lower
A friend of mine who runs a competing limo company has slashed prices (and never offered the same level service or quality drivers we have anyway). True, he's getting a quite a few more jobs than us, but having to book three times the number as us just to make the same dough. And still his customers complain about the price/etc. (whereas the clientel we drive know that they're paying a fair price for quality service and luxury - rarely complain, and book w/ us time and again).

Do you really want to be known as the Wal-Mart of bellydancing?
NAH!!! set your price and stick w/ it...

Works for me in bellydance too