Thread: A sticky wicket

I would be up front an honest, Tell them about the letter and how you have helped the manager change his mind, and that he has asked you to talk to them about their dancing. Ask them to submit a recent recording of their dancing so that you can give them a quick critique. This way they know you are not the bad guy, they get a critique and you have done what was asked of you.

Make a point to see their next shows and talk to them in person after their show is over. I agree with Annwyn to be upfront about the reasons why you are talking to them, but I wouldn't ask for a recent video--that's a little too "you're on probation" for my taste and you've said that you don't think there's anything wrong with their dancing. If you catch their show, you can talk to them in person and either say "you know, I think your dancing is fine... this person is crazy!" or "this person is crazy, but just to make everyone feel better, you might want to work on x, y, z." I'd just be sure to talk to them after the show so you don't freak them out!

Originally Posted by aazura

Make a point to see their next shows and talk to them in person after their show is over. I agree with Annwyn to be upfront about the reasons why you are talking to them, but I wouldn't ask for a recent video--that's a little too "you're on probation" for my taste and you've said that you don't think there's anything wrong with their dancing. If you catch their show, you can talk to them in person and either say "you know, I think your dancing is fine... this person is crazy!" or "this person is crazy, but just to make everyone feel better, you might want to work on x, y, z." I'd just be sure to talk to them after the show so you don't freak them out!

The only reason I suggested a video, is becuse if you were to go to 3 shows, that is A LOT of time, gas, and $ spent on a meal and if you are like me and need a baby sitter that could cost $50 a night........

Originally Posted by annwyn

I would be up front an honest, Tell them about the letter and how you have helped the manager change his mind, and that he has asked you to talk to them about their dancing. Ask them to submit a recent recording of their dancing so that you can give them a quick critique. This way they know you are not the bad guy, they get a critique and you have done what was asked of you.

No, IMO that would not be the right thing to do because it puts THTX in a bad light - it may cause a rift. To know that the manager went to the house dancer to correct your dancing? I wouldn't like that at all, especially if I had worked at said restaurant for as long as these dancers have without any problems in the past. TH, I think you should take the time to watch them dance and if you see any problems, talk to them about it casually. As you said, you do not have hiring or firing privileges so being a "mother hen", I feel, would cause problems between dancers that you don't want.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Update: I spoke to my manager, and he says he does not want to fire the three dancers mentioned. We will not schedule them the night of the party - all will be well.

He does want me to talk to them, though about the need to work on their dancing. I'm really not enthusiastic about being in that position, and since I don't get to watch their shows often I don't have any good firsthand feedback to give them. Any thoughts?

I would have serious reservations about this, unless I was being paid management salary or getting an agents' cut. In so many cases, the scheduling dancer is basically a volunteer with a few perks. I don't know that she should have to do management's dirty work.

I wonder if you could get away with: "if you have specific suggestions for these dancers, I'll pass along your comments as a favor. But I feel sure it wouldn't be cost effective for you to pay my rates to have me to sit in on their shows to critique them."

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I would have serious reservations about this, unless I was being paid management salary or getting an agents' cut. In so many cases, the scheduling dancer is basically a volunteer with a few perks. I don't know that she should have to do management's dirty work.

I wonder if you could get away with: "if you have specific suggestions for these dancers, I'll pass along your comments as a favor. But I feel sure it wouldn't be cost effective for you to pay my rates to have me to sit in on their shows to critique them."

This is exactly how I feel about it. I'm NOT paid a managerial salary, and since these women are friends and colleagues outside of work, I don't know that I want to be in the position of acting as a superior.

However, I don't want them to fail either because I didn't say something - I know, however, that my manager is uncomfortable talking to them about it, partially because they are women, lol.

Originally Posted by jasani

No, IMO that would not be the right thing to do because it puts THTX in a bad light - it may cause a rift. To know that the manager went to the house dancer to correct your dancing? I wouldn't like that at all, especially if I had worked at said restaurant for as long as these dancers have without any problems in the past. TH, I think you should take the time to watch them dance and if you see any problems, talk to them about it casually. As you said, you do not have hiring or firing privileges so being a "mother hen", I feel, would cause problems between dancers that you don't want.

I like this suggestion.

Annwyn, as for the time and money, it's more the time that's an issue. I know I can get food and drinks discounted if I go and play guest - they really treat us well in that regard - and I may do that just to check things out, but it will take some time to finagle three extra trips up there.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I wonder if you could get away with: "if you have specific suggestions for these dancers, I'll pass along your comments as a favor. But I feel sure it wouldn't be cost effective for you to pay my rates to have me to sit in on their shows to critique them."

I like Lauren's suggestion. Tamra, I don't envy your position. Stuck between the owners and the other dancers = Rock/Hard Place. I am sure you will find a savvy way to negotiate this.

THx, can you share the email with the dancers to let them know about the complaint, including a comment that the manager has also expressed concern about their dancing, and then let them decide what, if anything, to do about it?

In other words, you would stop short of critiquing these dancers yourself. Your role would communicate the critique received from others, and from there it would be up to them to decide for themselves what sort of continuing education (if any) to pursue.

I think it would be a kindness to let them know that they have fallen under extra scrutiny, and why. If it were me, I'd want to know. I'm afraid that if you merely "talk to them about it casually", they won't understand the jeopardy they are in and may not realize there is a reason to invest some effort in their skills.

Notice I'm not suggesting that you should put yourself in the position of giving them a formal performance evaluation, only that you share with them what's going on and leave it in their hands to decide what to do about it.

I think Shiras advice is the best. It's just too easy to take responsibility for other peoples problems, and once involved, you are the bad guy on all sides.

I think this needs to be handled by the management. Especially since many of us that dance at this establishment are on here...watching for info... if there is something wrong with me or my dancing or someone else that we dance with, I think that it is most appropriate for the management to handle this situation.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

THx, can you share the email with the dancers to let them know about the complaint, including a comment that the manager has also expressed concern about their dancing, and then let them decide what, if anything, to do about it?

In other words, you would stop short of critiquing these dancers yourself. Your role would communicate the critique received from others, and from there it would be up to them to decide for themselves what sort of continuing education (if any) to pursue.

I think it would be a kindness to let them know that they have fallen under extra scrutiny, and why. If it were me, I'd want to know. I'm afraid that if you merely "talk to them about it casually", they won't understand the jeopardy they are in and may not realize there is a reason to invest some effort in their skills.

Notice I'm not suggesting that you should put yourself in the position of giving them a formal performance evaluation, only that you share with them what's going on and leave it in their hands to decide what to do about it.

LOVE this idea.

Originally Posted by yeli

I think this needs to be handled by the management. Especially since many of us that dance at this establishment are on here...watching for info... if there is something wrong with me or my dancing or someone else that we dance with, I think that it is most appropriate for the management to handle this situation.

I totally agree with you, Yeli, and I told him this but he seems to be reluctant to have that conversation. I really DON'T want to be in this position.

***ETA - the reason he's giving me that he thinks it would be better form me to handle it is because he feels it would be better coming from a friend and colleague. However, I think it's just as likely to cause hurt feelings and embarrassment because these dancers will know that I know they have been singled out as needing improvement. I am "head dancer" in rank only (others have been there longer, but have taken hiatus(es)? for one reason or another) and because I coordinate the schedules. I don't have any real management authority, nor am I compensated accordingly.

I like Shira's advice too. It makes them aware of the situation, but doesn't require you to fix it. Once presented with the information, they can take it upon themselves to ask for a critique from you, from other dancers, or from the management directly. Or they can just ignore it.

I think the best thing you can do for them is allow them to make an informed decision about what to do next.

I like Shira's advice also. No need for you to be the "bad guy". Sharing the email and what has transpired so far with the dancers will let them know that it isn't coming directly from you but you were chosen as the messenger.

Since you have already posted the original email and your reply, chances are that dancers at this establishment are already aware of the situation or will be soon. And if they have read the discussion here on Bhuz they will know how sensative you are to this situtation and concerned about the best way to handle it.

So maybe Shiras suggestion is the best. Share the email from the customer. Perhaps one of them even knows who the customer is. I noticed that the complaint criticized the "entertainment and dancers." Could there have been a problem with a band or singer? Maybe poor choice of music or simply not the choice of music that the customer thought was culturally appropriate.

Souzan

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

. . . in the future, if there are certain dancers that she prefers, she should call ahead and inquire who is dancing that night.

Definitely!

I've been known to call ahead to a restaurant if a specific dancer I want to see is scheduled that weekend.

I don't think I've ever avoided a particular dancer at a particular venue, although I have boycotted some restaurants because the type of entertainment billed as "belly dance" wasn't BD, or if I know they treat/pay their dancers poorly.

ETA: as usual, I came late to the party -- this thread is 'way beyond the above post.

WHY ARE THESE MANAGERS/OWNERS SUCH COWARDS??? They'll talk to just about everyone else about this stuff, but never face the folks who need to know about it to make it better!

I was dancing as a sub for a restaurant that, until just before I started subbing, had a live musician playing Greek/Turkish/Armenian/Pan-Arabic music. Thinking that's the type of music they wanted, I continued in that vein with canned music. I danced two shows on separate weekends when the owner approached me and let me know that he really preferred Egyptian music!

If he hadn't said something to me, I would have just gone on my merry way, oblivious to the fact that I was driving the poor man crazy with music he really didn't like! To get rid of that hated music, he could have just let me go; then I would have spent the next several weeks in some crisis of confidence wondering what I could have done that was so awful! At least he had the cajones (b*lls) to tell me; once I fixed that music thing, everything was wonderful!

THTX, Shira is absolutely right; you're giving the other dancers a heads up while making that in-gender-only "man" take the ultimate responsibility.

Deborah

THTX, I too think Shira's on the right path here. There's a good chance at least one or more of these gals is a bhuzzer, lurker, or friend of a bhuzzer/lurker...so it's probably best to (very privately) rip the bandaid off and let X, Y, and Z know who they are, show them the email and share what has happened since it came in. (Especially given that it's been discussed in some detail in a public forum, albeit without their names attached.) Reassure them that both you and the owner recognize they've done good work for the restaurant over a long period of time, they're not losing their jobs, sometimes crazy customers do crazy things, and everyone is someone's favorite/no one is everyone's favorite. But they *are* now under a little extra scrutiny because the owner may be taking a closer look at them (and probably other dancers too!) in light of this message. So, (you might advise them) don't get all freaked out, but also, this could be a good opportunity, if they're interested, to ask for feedback from the owner and other people whose judgment they trust.

Heh heh...and you might want to give the owner a gentle warning that dancers, aware that there's been some concern, may ask him for feedback, so he NEEDS to be forthright if asked about whether there is something he doesn't like--like if he's not happy with musical choices or costuming or thinks the dancer needs to work on her dance skills. He may not need/be able to get very specific, but he needs to know that if he's asked directly, he shouldn't just say everything's wonderful if it's not...and the dancers may need to know that they should take a seemingly subtle or "minor" complaint in the requested feedback fairly seriously because Arab men sometimes are not good at direct confrontation/communication with women this way.

The owner's reaction (and his subsequent directive to you to "talk to them about their dancing") makes me wonder if just maybe he has had *some* bit of question in his own mind about these same dancers...or at least someone in the group...or possibly a few of the dancers in the restaurant some of whom were on the list. Perhaps it's not something he's observed, but just some scuttle he heard (could even be from someone with an agenda), or maybe it even is some legit concern but he can't put his finger on it or couldn't really bring himself to think it rose to the level of being bad enough to get rid of someone until the complaint came in. Still, there may be a chance that he's not totally satisfied with at least one of these ladies in some way. Or maybe he was just having a bad day and totally over reacted to a stupid email. In either case...he may be more aware of everyone for a while now. If it were me/a restaurant I was working at, I'd probably figure it wasn't a bad idea for *each* of us to take a look at how things were going--regardless of whether we were individually on the list of the "unlucky 3."

Shira and Mirah, both of you have some wonderful advice, and I've hit upon an idea on how to handle it. Mirah, you have some excellent insight.

Thanks for the input everyone!