Thread: Should I or not?? (About undercutting)

I've recently have figured out who has been undercutting in my community and have been really pied off to find out that these dancerSSSS (with a huge S!) all come from the same teacher! ,f::

I really feel like sending this teacher an email but dont really know how to go about. I know who some of the dancers are, should I contact them directly? Anyhow, here's what I got so far:

Hello Miss X,

My name is Salome and I am a professional belly dancer in the Montreal area.
It has come to my attention that many of your professional students have been undercutting prices in the Lebanese restaurant and nightclub industry as well as in the corporate and private sector.

I would like to mention that the ongoing rate for a 30min show is at the strict minimum of 80$ in restaurants (for regular weekly shows) and at a 150$ minimum for 20min at private functions and this in the Montreal area. Many employers have mentioned to me and other dancers that some of your students have been dancing for as low as 40$-50$.

I, as well as my professional dance colleagues, would truly appreciate if you would mention this to your students.
We all work very hard to make oriental dance a respectable art form and we believe that respecting ourselves and our peers is the best way to do so.

I wish you and your students much success,
Salome

I also really want to mention to her that her students lack any proper technique but I think I should just leave it at that. Should I send her and/or her students this email or not?

Thanks gals!

I feel your pain, but I don't think that the email will hit the spot with this teacher. Could you contact her in real life and talk to her face to face?

I can totally understand your frustration and do agree that you should raise the issue with this teacher. However, I can sense your frustration in the email, even though I'm sure you've tried to be kind in your approach. It could come across as accusatory.

You have a very endearing personality. What if you called her and asked to meet for coffee? Given the circumstances, it may be worth the time. Hopefully she just doesn't know better and isn't a nasty sort. Even on the phone would be more personal than email?

I hope it gets sorted out! Undercutting sucks.

Yeah I agree with the in person approach with issues of this nature. You both may understand each other more easily if you are right in front of each other. Sometimes email is good for addressing things, but with something like this I think the in person approach will definitley get the message across.

Yeah and what Adi said! "Hopefully she just doesn't know better and isn't a nasty sort!"

As for the phone, yeah its better than email, but for me sometimes people get misunderstood on the phone too. If its impossible for your schedules to meet up then phone it is, but if you can I'd meet her ;)

Urrrgghhhhh.

:(

Connais-tu bien la prof, Salomé ?

I can sympathize 100% with your current frustrations. Undercutting really, really is the worst. Especially when it keeps happening and nobody addresses the issue. That being said, I applaud you for taking the steps to rectify the problem.

However you choose to approach this tricky conversation, remember to maintain some sensitivity. This dancer might not even be aware that all this is happening. She might even be doing a perfectly fine job of relaying going rates and business protocol to her students. Unfortunately, all it takes is a group of ballsy individuals to go against their teacher's goodwill and make up their own rules. Some people in the BD business just don't want to hear about hard work, fair play and other entities from the Land of Happy Unicorns. We all suffer, from there.

I tend to agree with Adi. Might be best if you could invite her out for a coffee or, at the very least, chat about this on the phone. If you initiate this discussion from a place of friendly concern, you'll most likely get a better outcome. Easier said than done, however, when you may or may not be tempted to slap her silly.

Keep us posted and good luck!

Talk to her in person, tell them what the going rate is and ask why they would work for such a low price when they can be making the standard price? Maybe they don't feel they are worth the normal price, but mention that is ruins the market for entertainers by making people think you aren't worth anything.

i like the undulations magazine that was posted recently... it had an article about undercutting. i liked it because it was written in the perspective of helping the undercutter to understand why it's not a good idea to do it. maybe you could take a look at it before you contact the teacher.

ah here it is...

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/rest-belly...nline-now.html

Thanks for all the advice ladies!

It is a weird situation, one I would love to fix but I'm scared of the outcome. It would be best to face her in person but I guess I'm scared of getting punched in the nose!

Bizarre thing is that the majority of the community doesnt really know this woman still, she has been teaching for many many years.

Still debating if I have the balls to face her with this subject ..c::

That's a really good article! Anyway, I agree with Adi also. Meet the teacher in person. She can ignore an email, but if you meet her face to face, it's much more difficult (that is assuming she knows this going on, but it's not fair to assume that. Like Satin said, it could be a rebellious group and she isn't aware of it). I hope it goes well!

Another thing which we do a lot here, because we have a famous undercutter, is to circulate Samira's ethics of belly dancing and regional pricing around via e-mail. I now here in LA it goes out 3 - 4 times a year. I also post it on Craigslist when I see a trend of dancers stating that they are willing to dance for humus.

{{{{HUGS}}}

If you know who the dancers are, I think you should contact them directly--before you go to their teacher. I believe the teacher has a responsibility to turn her students out properly, but you don't know that she hasn't done that. These dancers may have chosen the route of the undercutter on their own, despite the teacher's best guidance.
I don't see why you wouldn't approach the offenders directly, politely & professionally.

I think if you are going to send an email (instead of face to face) something more along the lines of

You could suggest that you've heard that someone has been underpaying her students (and not that they've been undercharging). Something along the lines of you wanting to make sure they're getting paid what's right and that they deserve the going rate which is $80 minimum. You don't know for sure that she knows what's going on. Maybe a friendly heads-up.

Brilliant eshe! It is remotely possible that they really don't know what the going rates are. Non-confrontational actions often get the best results.

This thread does make me wonder what the most appropriate course of action is when there are several known undercutters in your community.

It's relatively easy to approach a single individual, but things get quite complicated when numerous dancers (including those who study under quality instructors and therefore should know better) are charging below the going rate. How do you make things right when undercutting is becoming the norm?

I kind of like Tahira's suggestion of posting the going rates on Craigslist. Of course, I'm pretty sure the general reaction will be "Pfft, what-evah, I'll do what I want!" Maybe somebody out there will get the hint.

The way I would handle it is to send a generic email to not only the students but to other local dancers that just listed the rates.

I know some teachers and students justify the lower rate due to lack of experience but then frankly they shouldn't be working and taking the jobs of professionals.

Here's an example of an email that went out in our community last fall.
--------------
Hello Ladies, this is just to remind you that we have increased our rates effective Oct. 2007. Please abide by these new rates to ensure that all dancers in our area receive the same pay. Please forward to any dancers who are not on this email list.

Zeffa $175
> Zeffa with Shamadan $200
> Dinner show $250
> Dinner show + zeffa $300
> Parties/weddings for 1-3 songs only (approx. 5-15 minutes) $200
> Windsor, Toledo, Flint areas add $50
> Lansing, Saginaw areas add $100
> Out of state and up north- Double or minimum of $500
> New Years Eve- Double

Originally Posted by norma

The way I would handle it is to send a generic email to not only the students but to other local dancers that just listed the rates.

I know some teachers and students justify the lower rate due to lack of experience but then frankly they shouldn't be working and taking the jobs of professionals.

Here's an example of an email that went out in our community last fall.
--------------
Hello Ladies, this is just to remind you that we have increased our rates effective Oct. 2007. Please abide by these new rates to ensure that all dancers in our area receive the same pay. Please forward to any dancers who are not on this email list.

Zeffa $175
> Zeffa with Shamadan $200
> Dinner show $250
> Dinner show + zeffa $300
> Parties/weddings for 1-3 songs only (approx. 5-15 minutes) $200
> Windsor, Toledo, Flint areas add $50
> Lansing, Saginaw areas add $100
> Out of state and up north- Double or minimum of $500
> New Years Eve- Double

Oh clubs was to increase to $125 from $100 but I don't know if that went into effect.

Mmmmm, I guess the direct email isnt the best course of action. I love the idea of a general sent out, thats really cool!

I love reading you guys, thanks for the ideas!

Slightly off, but I'm bummed that those are the going rates. :0( You and others who work hard at their craft deserve a little more pay. I know it's Montreal but it's also a restaurant/foodie destination and good food should be accompanied by good entertainment. I know the restauranteurs (some of them anyways) are picky so they should pay "pickily". :0)

I decided to post rates on my website. No body in my area posts rates, so it's a bold move. It means new dancers around here have something to check. I also just tell people 'check the website' or quote them the right rate.

I can't stand it when it's the other way around when I want a service of some kind, and the service provider wants to have a long conversation about my 'needs', and won't tell me a price until I've toured the gym, or chatted to them for 30 minutes first, or burnt a slipper and walked backwards around the room. People - I'm busy !!!