Thread: Music Licensing in classroom What???!!!!

Not sure if this belongs in the instructor/student thread but....
I just got an email from the YMCA where I teach telling me that we will not be able to use licensed music in our dance classes because of BMI raising their rates. ,m:: I have heard talks about this before but only really in relation to using licensed music on your instructional DVD. I am kinda thinking this is BS. I teach so many choreographies and no way can I license the music I use to warm up to etc. They are saying they will keep a small amount of licensed music on hand for us to use. Has anyone ever heard of this? Or had experience with this? Does the music industry truly enforce this? I would go crazy if my music selections were limited in my class and I can guarantee my students wouldn't stick around. Any thoughts?

Yes, the music industry truly enforces this - quite vigorously, in fact. They have sales reps whose job it is to read Yellow Pages, newspaper ads, etc. looking for announcements about new restaurants, new dance studios, etc., and then contacting those venues to demand music licensing money.

Do you buy music from Pe-Ko Records (Hollywood Music Center)? If so, I suggest calling and having a conversation with Maher. A friend of mine did that and received some very useful input.

So long as you use only Middle Eastern music in class, BMI really can't do much about you, because they don't handle the licensing for Egyptian and Turksih music. If your songs are not licensed through them, then they don't have a case. (By the way, John Bilezikjian's original music including his song Jemilleh is licensed through BMI, so if you follow my suggestion you'd want to make sure you discontinue using John's music if you have used it in the past.) Check BMI's web site for info on which composers and lyricists are licensed through them.

The licensing schemes by BMI and ASCAP are based on who the composer and lyricist are. If the song AND LYRICS are traditional folk song, they can't charge you to use it. So, for example, you could use the original Turkish version of Rampi Rampi, but if some American musician wrote English lyrics for it and recorded it with those, and then registered the lyrics with BMI, you'd have to pay BMI to use that musician's version.

Um... i live in SA, so not sure if this helps-

But the South African Music Right Organisation, in addition to being THE most useless bunch of pillocks in the world- their admin skills are horrendous, half the time I am begging them to let me give them money!- are our umbrella organisation to handle all music rights out here. They require 3 licenses of me.

1] Whenever I stage a production, like my year end student recital, I require a short term function license, for which I provide a full list of tracks used, time etc. The amount payable is calculated off of my ticket sales, and there is a consideration whether or not a charity is also involved

2] A performers license for my troupe. At year end, they need a list of used tracks from me, but that is all they ask.

3] My one as a dance teacher, due annually. They do ask a list like above [but of artists, not tracks, used], and I provide- though it is scarcely possible to give them everything, I try my best.

Provided that last one is paid up, theoretically at least, I have the right to use ANY piece of music in the classroom, provided at the end of the license period I inform them of the artist concerned. The amount due each year really is tiny in comparison to a lot of other overheads, and means I am paid up and legal to use music in a 'broadcast' situation.

Do you not maybe have something simmilar in place?

Anyway, dunno if that helped. Good luck!

We have the same thing in Canada, called SOCAN, when we do our theatre shows we have to pay a fee for using the music in the theatre and then they are covered. Especially if any of the music we are using is from a Canadian artist ie Lorena McKennet. They told us they could not do anything about us using middle eastern music. I have been baffled by this since I purchase the music legally . I try and support the artists this way and not download off the internet and stuff. So I purchase it legally and then still have to keep paying. I guess especially with the advances in technology they have to find many ways to protect their creative property.

BMI/ASCAP are the most ruthless pirates around, and they've managed to get laws passed legalizing their extortion schemes. The solution? Use music NOT registered with them - there's a fair amount of it out there. Several middle eastern groups purposely DON'T register their works so that dancers can actually DANCE TO their music without hassle. Needless to say, these artists deserve our support.

Yeah, susu, you are right- should have mentioned- there is a very strong bias to the protection of local artists, but fair enough, I suppose. They claim to offer a degree of international policing- how good it is, I don't know. But they are the only organisation available, so we are stuck with them

And although [since I am a published author :)] I am VERY big into the protection of artists rights, it does get a little silly, yes: for eg, at my production next weeked

1] I have paid a class license to teach my students the work we will present
2] I am then paying an extra license to use that same music at my production specifically.
3] Having paid for a general performance license
3] My DJ, too, holds a Samro license for the right to handle that music
4] And so does the hall, as it is a govermental owned facility.
5] And so does my sound engineer- since he is involved in sound managment
6] All after I legally purchased the music in the first place!

How many times have we paid for the one piece of music now? But yeah... while people continue to 'steal' music, those of us who do choose the legal routes are going to see some extra enforcement, I suppose. Can't blame them at days end- so long as the artists ARE really seeing saome of this cash!

Originally Posted by Amira_Siddiqah

pillocks ... half the time I am begging them to let me give them money!

ah, the pillocks, I was wondering what happened to them. I haven't heard anyone use that term for years. Infact, I think it was my mum about a builder, when I was a kid.

You may now return to topic ...

Yes Amira I agree, if you try to do the right thing you seem to just keep paying and paying. I hope those artists are seeing those funds. Yes Zorba, pirates is right. I agree support the ME artists who don't subscribe to the constant money grab.

Originally Posted by susuabdo

Yes Amira I agree, if you try to do the right thing you seem to just keep paying and paying. I hope those artists are seeing those funds. Yes Zorba, pirates is right. I agree support the ME artists who don't subscribe to the constant money grab.

From what I understand - I hope Shira will chime in here - I don't think the ME artists see a dime. I've heard something about the whole shebang being based on the "top 40" or somesuch. (?)

Originally Posted by zorba

From what I understand - I hope Shira will chime in here - I don't think the ME artists see a dime. I've heard something about the whole shebang being based on the "top 40" or somesuch. (?)

Wow really??? that is the other extreme for sure. :Aohmy:

Originally Posted by zorba

From what I understand - I hope Shira will chime in here - I don't think the ME artists see a dime. I've heard something about the whole shebang being based on the "top 40" or somesuch. (?)

ASCAP and BMI will tell you that you need to buy licenses from both of them, because you might use music from both.

For dance studio use, or for playing-in-restaurants use, BMI just has you buy a blanked license covering everything they use. You don't have to submit a playlist of songs you have actually used. When it comes time to distribute the money, they allocate distribution of it according to what music has been played on broadcast radio here in the U.S. (DJ's on radio stations are required to record which songs they have played.) So, if a song has chewed up 5% of airwaves time, it will get 5% of your money regardless of whether you ever used it in your classroom or not.

In other words, in the U.S., if you pay music licensing fees to BMI for your dance studio, you are subsidizing the latest violent filthy misogynistic rap song that's currently getting lots of airplay even if you would never EVER use it in your classroom. And even though you're using Cleopatra and Enta Omri (both of which were composed by Mohammed Abdel Wahab), none of your money goes to his estate, because these songs don't get U.S. radio airplay.

I don't know whehter ASCAP handles things the same way or not.

I also don't know whether the music licensing agencies in Canada and elsewhere handle things the same way or not.

The subject of music licensing periodically arises on tribe.net on the Biz of Bellydance tribe. Here are some links:

On the subject of playing music in restaurants: restaurant requirements for playing m... - The Biz of Belly Dance - tribe.net

Miles posted some really interesting comments on this thread: Musical copyright - The Biz of Belly Dance - tribe.net

Originally Posted by *Shira*

In other words, in the U.S., if you pay music licensing fees to BMI for your dance studio, you are subsidizing the latest violent filthy misogynistic rap song that's currently getting lots of airplay even if you would never EVER use it in your classroom. And even though you're using Cleopatra and Enta Omri (both of which were composed by Mohammed Abdel Wahab), none of your money goes to his estate, because these songs don't get U.S. radio airplay.

This is interesting and it begs the question: Why would any ME artist register with BMI if they don't get any money from them? It only limits the usage and exposure of their music. I've often had students ask about the music I play in class so they can purchase it themselves. It seems advantageous to allow us to play the music so they can reap more sales... money that will actually get to them.

Originally Posted by aazura

This is interesting and it begs the question: Why would any ME artist register with BMI if they don't get any money from them? It only limits the usage and exposure of their music. I've often had students ask about the music I play in class so they can purchase it themselves. It seems advantageous to allow us to play the music so they can reap more sales... money that will actually get to them.

Just to be clear, it's not the PERFORMER who stands to gain from BMI or ASCAP, it's the COMPOSER.

So, if a radio station plays Whitney Houston's recording of "I Will Always Love You,", the money generated by that doesn't go to Whitney, it goes to Dolly Parton because Dolly composed it.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Just to be clear, it's not the PERFORMER who stands to gain from BMI or ASCAP, it's the COMPOSER.

So, if a radio station plays Whitney Houston's recording of "I Will Always Love You,", the money generated by that doesn't go to Whitney, it goes to Dolly Parton because Dolly composed it.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

As a musician myself I think this whole system is abhorrent! That said - my classes will be over if they actually enforce this stuff. I can't imagine BMI is coming over to check out what I am playing in my classes so I will probably continue as usual. I often use very obscure and vintage stuff and know many of the musicians so I guess we'll just see. Of course I would by a license if I was doing a stage show or for my instructional dvd but this is just silly to be talking about this kind of classroom situation! Thanks to everyone who chimed in! I let you all know what happens!

So I guess it's the tours that the performers do to get the million dollar houses and million dollar tour buses and plane purchases/rentals.

Approximately how much does licensing cost? Say, just for lessons, or just for a restaurant.
thanks

The YMCA owns a blanket license from BMI but I guess the fees are going up. They say BMI will do random checks.

wait so am I getting this... you have to BUY a licence to DANCE to music at a party, or other venue?

Legally - yes.

If you charge to get in to party.

In the Uk you have to buy music licence to play music in class - regardless of whose music you play. They claim to have agreements with other countries, but as in US the money doesn't go to the artists you paly but on airtime.

I need a music licence to play music at my Kids Club in the background because it is a business.

As a matter of fact i SHOULD have a licence to play music in my office if it is possible that any of my staff will come in to talk to me!!!!

If our venue does not have a recorded music licence, we as individuals have to have one wether it's class or party.
I reckon the best thing is to play exclusively Egyptan or Turkish etc music then you can say Ok none of my money is going to offerings by nasallly inclined,vocally challenged half-wits. But then it's a bit like saying my tax is not going to fund tanks and bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by zorba

BMI/ASCAP are the most ruthless pirates around, and they've managed to get laws passed legalizing their extortion schemes. The solution? Use music NOT registered with them - there's a fair amount of it out there. Several middle eastern groups purposely DON'T register their works so that dancers can actually DANCE TO their music without hassle. Needless to say, these artists deserve our support.

Here, here! ..g.: ..g.:

This whole system is ridiculous. I've half a mind to become a drummer myself just so that the music industry's vampire legislation (backed by a bijillion rock-stars and corporate-interest lobbyists) cannot keep us from dancing! >:{
This world is just drowning in red tape.
I'm literally studying to be a pro photographer myself just so I don't have to worry about infringing on copyrights- I'll take my own pictures instead!

Here's a link to BMI's licensing for Dance Instructors:

http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/40.pdf

that is ridiculous.

I have done my thing with them - BMI. I argued via email for months that I did not use their music and got sent up the food chain in increments to someone who's hourly paygrade was higher than the money they were trying to extort from me. They dropped it. But I feel sure they will be back. They may be reading this post as I write it...just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they arent out to get you.

So are there any "belly dance music" artists that fall under the BMI/ASCAP that we need to worry about licensing for if we only use Middle Eastern Music?

Originally Posted by miriamgamal

So are there any "belly dance music" artists that fall under the BMI/ASCAP that we need to worry about licensing for if we only use Middle Eastern Music?

John Bilezikjian is registered with BMI. You can use the folk songs that he plays (such as Rampi Rampi) but not his taqasim or compositions (Jemilleh).