Thread: Hmmm, not sure about this

Okay, to promote our new gothic troupe we asked haunted houses about dancing for free while people wait in line. The place that wanted us to dance is a fundraiser for a museum. Keep in mind, when I mentioned this to them they wanted to know how much we would charge. Since we hadn't planned on charging anything I said we'd just take tips. So, today we're finalizing dates and times and se says:

Because the ************** is a fundraiser for the museum, we ask that 15% of your tips go to the Museum (which is tax deductible) in lieu of a booth fee.

Nothing like that had ever come up before. Has anyone else come across something like this? I don't feel we should pay them to entertain their customers. We're donating our services to the museum, isn't that enough? Is this common? Is the rationale that if we weren't there our tips would be going to them as donations?

Perhaps you could reply that you normally charge $$ for a show like this, and you can give the museum a receipt with that amount on it, or something. Sometimes they need to keep a tally of all the volunteers' time as donations.

Then politely decline the suggestion to donate your tips.

Are other groups having "booths"?

Not that I know of. It just surprised me when she mentioned it.

Thats strange. I think your dance is a donation and tips for your services should belong to you 100%

yup, when you donate, the org. loses their say. pro bono means you call the shots and keep them happy (have done lots of this). Prepare to walk away and charge the next lucky group who hires your troupe to dance, if they don't allow you to keep your tips.

That sucks. They ask how much you charge and then when you say you'll be performing for free they ask for 15% of your tips? Hmmm, I bet if you gave them a price they would have asked for a larger percentage. Greedy, just greedy.

Since they sent you a counter-offer you could send them your counter-offer. You could state two options - charge a fee for your performance or donate your services. Period. No mention of a percentage in your reply. It might cause you to lose the gig but if you agree to their terms now you will set a precedence for the future.

OK, that is weird. Usually how it works is that the entertainers donate their time or give steep discount which serves to draw in more people and garner support. I have never heard of having to PAY(ie giving them your tips) a nonprofit to entertain their guests at their fundraiser. If you want to donate money on your own accord, you can, but this is bad business on their behalf.

Wait, there is one thing I want to make sure I have straight: you approached them, yes? In that case you are a vendor. I can see where the Muse people may be a little confused. As I understand it, they did not come to you and say, come dance for free and tips. you said, we want to dance to promote ourselves. Yes?

I might suggest that you plan on donating all your tips. As this, if I am reading this correctly, was planned as a promotional venture for you, you probably aren't losing anything. Also, and this is just harsh reality, you probably won't make that much in tips. I have danced on Third St. Promenade and The Venice Board Walk - places where busking is expected - and unless you really know how to play the crowd, you probably won't make a lot in tips. Just my experience.

Just make sure you have lots of cards with you.

{{{HUGS}}}

One of our troupe members just informed me that this is common practice for bands at charity fundraiser things. My agenda wasn't the money, it was wanting us to be taken seriously. I didn't want us to be looked at as nonprofessionals because we perform gothic bellydance.

Understood. And it is, indeed, a common practice. Vendors many times pay a booth fee and a percentage. In contrast to when you are directly hired by the event. And even then, many times they expect a % if you take any money in.

{{{HUGS}}}

And yes, we were most likely going to give them all of our tips. I guess I just didn't expect to be asked. I've been to charity events but not really a part of one before.

are you going to get many tips to begin with at an event like this? Not that that's the main issue here; you don't want to give them any tips, but if I saw a group performing while I was waiting in line I'd assume they were hired by the haunted house and I wouldn't tip them...

One more questions: Are they giving you add space? this might be a valuable exchange!

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Safiyah

are you going to get many tips to begin with at an event like this? Not that that's the main issue here; you don't want to give them any tips, but if I saw a group performing while I was waiting in line I'd assume they were hired by the haunted house and I wouldn't tip them...

No not many. We were going to set up a table with cards, etc and a tip jar.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

One more questions: Are they giving you add space? this might be a valuable exchange!

{{{HUGS}}}

They're doing some ads on Halloween day. I think they just now decided to add us to them. Yes, this could be very valuable. Another thing they surprised us with, but a good thing..g.:

Yay my first star!

Wait wait wait!

You asked haunted houses about dancing for free? I'm sorry, but that isn't ok. If you want people to respect you and your dancers, you MUST charge money for your dancing. And if you don't think that you're at the point where you should be charging money for performances, then you shouldn't be dancing professionally. Sorry that's a little blunt, but too many people in the general public think that they can have dancers for free. "Exposure" doesn't pay the rent.

Originally Posted by wayauwohali

One of our troupe members just informed me that this is common practice for bands at charity fundraiser things. My agenda wasn't the money, it was wanting us to be taken seriously. I didn't want us to be looked at as nonprofessionals because we perform gothic bellydance.

I'm not going to address the museum issue, rather I want to back it up a bit and look at something else you said right off the bat and how it conflicts with what you just wrote.

I understand the need to promote one's troupe, but I have a hard time reconciling offering to dance for free at events like haunted houses (which have a budget, paid employees, admission price - etc). An occasional benefit is one thing, but working for free at events where other people are getting paid to do their job isn't very professional (regardless of style), nor is it really going to get you the kind of respect and positive feedback and exposure you truly want.

Honestly, the issue isn't that you're going to be looked at as nonprofessionals because you perform Gothic Bellydance, it's that you could be looked at as nonprofessionals because you're not charging for your work. Money may not be that important to YOU when it comes to the dance, but on the larger scale of things - what you charge, how you present yourself, how clean and professional looking you are in movement, music, and interaction - that's where your best bet is.

And I confess, one of my biggest pet peeves is dancers working for free in normally paid situations under the guise of "getting exposure." It's the difference between "cover of Vogue" exposure and "cover of Hustler" in your community.

So don't sell you and your troupe short, nor the art of Gothic Bellydance. If you want you/it to be treated as valid, then demand what you're worth.

Kiaroskuro and Rosehips,

I appreciate that you are concerned with the perception of bellydance as an art. I was wondering when someone would bring up your points. When we contacted these people we made it (or at least tried to) make it clear that we do charge for our services and that this was strictly a one-time deal for promotional purposes. The museum was our first choice but if they had not been interested we would have danced somewhere else for the sole purpose of reaching our target audience. Our area is not very openminded and the people that would enjoy gothic bellydance can be difficult to reach.

p.s. Like the comic strip Kiaroskuro.

Originally Posted by wayauwohali

Kiaroskuro and Rosehips,

I appreciate that you are concerned with the perception of bellydance as an art. I was wondering when someone would bring up your points. When we contacted these people we made it (or at least tried to) make it clear that we do charge for our services and that this was strictly a one-time deal for promotional purposes. The museum was our first choice but if they had not been interested we would have danced somewhere else for the sole purpose of reaching our target audience. Our area is not very openminded and the people that would enjoy gothic bellydance can be difficult to reach.

p.s. Like the comic strip Kiaroskuro.

while many on the board may understand a 'one time thing', offering to dance for free anywhere but a fundraiser is setting a bad precedent, and will only make it harder for you to find good, solid paid gigs, not easier.....yes, your target audience will be difficult to reach, but the ones that will pay will do so cuz you ROCK, not cuz you did a free gig for exposure.........

free gigs will garner people who EXPECT free or cheap, cuz 'you did it free there......', a good solid rate that you stick to will get the people willing to pay out for solid entertainment..............

whether you're dancing goth, ats, orientale or any fusion, it's never a good idea to perform anywhere for just tips, and if it's a fundraiser, any tips you DO get should go into the cause.........

you may wish to rethink the free aspect

Originally Posted by ruta21030

free gigs will garner people who EXPECT free or cheap, cuz 'you did it free there......', a good solid rate that you stick to will get the people willing to pay out for solid entertainment..............


you may wish to rethink the free aspect

I don't see how the patrons would know if we were paid. As I said earlier it was kind of a foregone conclusion that we were going to give our tips to the museum. We just had not discussed it with them and when they asked for part of the tips it was unexpected. Thanks for the input, I do see your point.

And just to clarify for everyone, the reason I brought up being looked at as non-professional because we perform gothic bellydance is that is very likely to happen around here. As much as I hate to admit it, there are a lot of close-minded judgmental people that look down on bellydancing in general when they've never seen it. Gothic bellydance is a double-whammy.

I don't see how the patrons would know if we were paid.

The patrons will know if you were paid or not because when they inquire with the museum as to how to contact you and how much you charged, the museum will tell them. Don't expect to get exposure and not have people find out what you charged.

In my area, there are not a lot of people willing to pay for bellydance performances, and I've lost many gigs because people were not willing to pay my professional price. I'd rather hold true to my standards and not undercut the industry than take gigs paying sub-standard for what I know I deserve to be paid.

As soon as one bellydancer dances for free in my area, no matter what the situation and who they have their "secret" with, no one wants to pay for bellydancers anymore. I've even done benefits where I've danced for free. If the public can see bellydancers for free they will never want to pay.

Perhaps you can work a deal with the museum that you get paid per patron who comes because you are there, and start promoting your gig to people you know who might want to come see your troupe dance and attend the haunted museum thing.

Originally Posted by wayauwohali

And just to clarify for everyone, the reason I brought up being looked at as non-professional because we perform gothic bellydance is that is very likely to happen around here. As much as I hate to admit it, there are a lot of close-minded judgmental people that look down on bellydancing in general when they've never seen it. Gothic bellydance is a double-whammy.

Excuse me while I tongue-in-cheek make the "hand-staple-head" motion.

You're talking to the woman who first pushed through the barriers that made GBD the phenomenon it is today - I know all about the trials and tribulations of presenting it to the public AND to the bellydance community. And I've taught and performed all over this country - and trust me, there's close-minded judgmental people everywhere - regarding both regular and fusion bellydance. Heck, where I live right now in Southern NJ seems more redneck and backwards than where I lived in South Carolina. They're everywhere, and the only way you can combat it is by presenting yourself professionally, at the top of your game, and with a solid education and rhetoric to discuss why and how you're doing what you're doing.

I'm not trying to be a ***** or antagonistic - I just don't want you to sell yourself short. Don't cater to the ignorant, EDUCATE them and prove them wrong, and don't assume they're all schmucks either. If you're sincere about what you're doing, and are presenting something solid - well rehearsed, costumed, and worked-out, that will show and win over people regardless of what you're doing.

-Tempest

Originally Posted by wayauwohali

No not many. We were going to set up a table with cards, etc and a tip jar.

Aside from the comments above about devaluing your art by performing for free.....I can understand the museum wanting money from you because you are setting up a table with cards, tip jar, etc....then you're also a vendor and not just a performer. Hopefully you can come up with some sort of compromise, even if it's an arrangement that you are performing to pay for your vending area.

Originally Posted by wayauwohali

I don't see how the patrons would know if we were paid. As I said earlier it was kind of a foregone conclusion that we were going to give our tips to the museum. We just had not discussed it with them and when they asked for part of the tips it was unexpected. Thanks for the input, I do see your point.

And just to clarify for everyone, the reason I brought up being looked at as non-professional because we perform gothic bellydance is that is very likely to happen around here. As much as I hate to admit it, there are a lot of close-minded judgmental people that look down on bellydancing in general when they've never seen it. Gothic bellydance is a double-whammy.

as someone mentioned above, they find out........they always do, whether thru the museum or someone attached to it! and as Tempest says (a pioneer in the GBD brance), that you must not sell yourself short......

the biggest hurdle is going in with the expectation that people will want to pay top dollar for quality entertainment...........with that they expect to see talent, polish, and excellence..........if you possess all those attributes, and you INVEST heavily into your art (top notch instruction, quality costuming, good makeup, solid props, heavy practice), then you deserve, should be and MUST be compensated for it..........

regardless of style, the only way to be taken seriously as a professional, is to BE professional and charge accordingly, by your local market and stick to them.......as tempest mentions, gothic style is NOT the norm, but practitioners are still respected when they stand tall and stick to their guns.....which is why artists like tempest, zoe, naimah, asharah, belladonna, etc., THRIVE in some of the most conservative areas around.......

just set your price, stick to your guns, compromise when NEEDED and appropriate, but don't dance free unless it's for a charity......non profits and similar have budgets for such things..........

I don't want to rag on you, but here's the problem with Exposure: how many of us have ever gotten gigs thanks to an exposure-only gig? If yes, then how many? The question to ask is this: Is setting the precedent of free dancing in this one venue going to garner enough paid work that it won't matter? Probably not.

Besides, if you get paid, people still see you ... you still get exposure. I know so many performers (outside of bellydance) that get so excited about these big exposure gigs and the result is always the same - people really liked and enjoyed them, maybe they sold some CDs or products, they got some new myspace friends, but they never seem to get paid work from it.

Rosehips, I have your video! lol I didn't realize that was you until just now. Nice to meet you even if we're disagreeing, lol.

Leyla, we've actually gotten some good business from exposure-only gigs. I think the main thing is people don't realize there are bellydancers here.

I think that as a professional troupe, you should be out soliciting paying gigs. If you sit at home waiting for your phone to ring with offers, you're going to be waiting a looooong time. Sure, eventually your name will get out and people will contact you to perform, but while your troupe is in the launch phase you'll need to be doing the legwork. Why would you offer yourselves to everyone for free simply because you approached them? Determine a rate, make yourselves a nice press kit, start attending some networking events & join your local arts council. Don't negotiate, be firm on your price. Your price doesn't have to be the same for every gig. In fact it shouldn't be. 4 hours on a cold october friday night for 1,000 people is worth alot more than 15 minutes on a Sunday afternoon for 200. Quote a rate based on the amount of time & effort you'll need to put into the gig. Always have a rate prepared & be ready to break down the expense if asked to justify the rate.
If they ask you to negotiate or you're not sure what they might be willing to pay ask "what is your budget for entertainment?".
I have an 8 member troupe & we dance for free at 1 event annually. We are paid for everything else we do & have been for almost 5 years. We're booked for paying gigs into October 2009. Most of these are gigs we have solicited.

As for your original question, I would say a very polite thank but no thanks to the musuem. Even if you do dance for free (which you shouldn't), you absolutely should not donate any part of your tips. Now not only are you undercutting the market & selling yourselves short by dancing for free, you're actually paying someone else to allow you to dance. Yuk.