Thread: combatting undercutting

I know someone in another town who is coping with this right now. How do you do it? It sucks, but it is a free market economy. Let's assume that you already know outright that you won't get support from the greater community. So how do you do it? are you forced to lower your own prices, or is there some sort of marketing you can do (without slandering anyone else, of course?)

no, you don't lower your prices

do regular marketing, but DO indicate the worth of your 'product'....you don't have to slander anyone, or even put anyone down.........simply state, 'my rates reflect the experience, investment and quality of my training, so you will get the best experience....' blahdeblahdeblah

basically telling them 'you get what you pay for', without using those words...........it's a terrible shame there won't be support from the community (are you sure of that?), cuz THAT is how change is made..............

don't budge on your prices - hold firm!

There always has been and always will be undercutting. It's an unfortunate fact that there are dancers who simply won't get the gig at "going rates" and will engage in all sorts of unethical practices and rationalizations just to get the gig.
There are also dancers who WOULD get the gig at going rates, but they simply haven't been taught better.
Either way- I believe trying to be positive and trying to educate helps A LOT. It's what we started in DC a good number of years ago and it did wonders. There are STILL undercutters of course- but you know, for most of the professionals we've gotten the rates up to a place where they actually make sense for a business...which is a goal of a "profession" is it not?
There are will always be the girls at Ren Faire "performing" in cabaret costume for way too little. Set your sights higher. The low paying gigs are not worth your time as a professional.
In your market Sonja can you focus more on parties and corporate events than the regular venues?
Here's a blog post I wrote in response to a thread about undercutting and rationalizing undercutting "because of the economy". (yea, tell that to the gas station)
Egypt is hungry.... - tribe.net

In an effort not to undercut other dancers as far as teaching prices in my area I posted the question to the community. I was surprised that only three people contacted me.

I know there are dancers in our area who are undercutting only charging around six dollars and hour for lessons.

Then their is a master instructor who I feel is also undercutting her prices for her time and experience. I for one would gladly pay a higher price of 15.00 an hour with her for class lessons.

One person said I should charge 10 percent less cause I dont have the overhead of renting a studio, but if I did that then I found that I would actually be raising my rates even with a 10 percent decrease from the studio rates.

Then after looking at my previous instructors rates. They remained constant whether she was teaching in a studio or in our private studio. She had classes in both and I think it was just done to simplify matters as far a record keeping was concerned.

But one thing that was also mentioned was dance experience. That a dancer with less experience shouldn't charge as much as say an experienced dancer of twelve or twenty years. That rates should also be based upon experience.

I'm sooooo confused.

Studios are charging 10 an hour....

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

But one thing that was also mentioned was dance experience. That a dancer with less experience shouldn't charge as much as say an experienced dancer of twelve or twenty years. That rates should also be based upon experience.

I'm sooooo confused.

Studios are charging 10 an hour....

You are SO right that experience makes a difference in price. But it can also be used as an excuse to undercut, so one has to be careful.
For example- party rates here in DC. We've been saying for over a year now that "minimum" is $200.
That means that "new dancer" rate is $200 and more experienced dancer rates are higher. What happens though is that newer dancers rationalize "well, I shouldn't charge as much as Shapoopie, cos she's got more experience, so I'll charge $150." When really, Shapoopie is charging $275. That newer dancer is undercutting.
For class rates, I'd keep it pretty close. Are studios near you pretty much ALL charging $10? I'd try it at $10, honestly.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

You are SO right that experience makes a difference in price. But it can also be used as an excuse to undercut, so one has to be careful.
For example- party rates here in DC. We've been saying for over a year now that "minimum" is $200.
That means that "new dancer" rate is $200 and more experienced dancer rates are higher. What happens though is that newer dancers rationalize "well, I shouldn't charge as much as Shapoopie, cos she's got more experience, so I'll charge $150." When really, Shapoopie is charging $275. That newer dancer is undercutting.
For class rates, I'd keep it pretty close. Are studios near you pretty much ALL charging $10? I'd try it at $10, honestly.

Shapoopie, I like it..g.: I may have to change my dance name!

Isn't Shapoopie a song from Music Man?

When I first started teaching, I offered my classes at the "going" rate of $100 per 8 weeks. This was the price all of the other teachers in town were asking. I felt that, as an experienced teacher in other forms, I could be comfortable with charging this rate as I made sure that I had a "full package" for my students. I created extensive lesson plans, handouts, and a variety of other student resources including a regular informative newsletter (not one that just advertised my classes), DVD reviews, costume tutorials, etc. I feel completely justified in charging what I charge when comparing to other local teachers.

Since then, as student attendance has waxed and waned, it's been interesting to see what other teachers have done in order to try to keep up their business. One teacher, who was once my instructor, now charges $125 for as many classes as you can take in an 8 week period. She offers 4-6 classes a week and the $125 will cover you to go to as many of them as you like. It's a great deal, to be sure, but I was very surprised when she did this as she was once a great champion against undercutting. I'm also surprised to read that her new marketing advertises that she has "the cheapest rates in town." What an odd thing to say about your class, eh? Please understand, I'm not criticizing, just more scratching my head and trying to figure out why she'd do that...is it undercutting? I think it is - especially since a student could conceivably take 4 classes a week for 8 weeks so 32 classes for $125 instead of 8 classes for $100...it seems odd that someone would clearly undercut and yet not seem to understand what they were doing to the local dance economy.

Another teacher in town offers 10 weeks of class for $100. To me, this is also undercutting and sends a very odd message to the students. won't they wonder why dancer X charges $___ but dancer X only charges $___? This person also knew the going rate but specifically chose to change it so that it would be cheaper per class. I know they probably thought it was cagey business sense to offer more at the same price, but i don't think they realize the potential of how much it hurts everyone all across the board.

There are still 3 teachers in town that have kept the $100 per 8 week rate but I wonder as these other 2 teachers persist in undercutting how the fees will respond. I'm pretty ambivalent to the whole thing - I'm happy to teach and enjoy doing so and really don't care too much about the fees - but it does strike me as pretty sad that other teachers would deliberately undercut what they know to be the going rate. I hold firm to my price for several reasons. One, I take a lot of time to research and study, attend additional workshops, etc to bring material to my students and need to recoup some of that loss. But second, and probably most importantly, this is supposed to be the local rate and I'm sticking to it.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

In your market Sonja can you focus more on parties and corporate events than the regular venues?
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I can, and will. Thanks Samira. It's not me that is being affected, though... This was a question raised by a friend elsewhere who is worried that undercutting might be affecting her business.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Originally Posted by misha

Another teacher in town offers 10 weeks of class for $100. To me, this is also undercutting and sends a very odd message to the students. won't they wonder why dancer X charges but dancer X only charges ? This person also knew the going rate but specifically chose to change it so that it would be cheaper per class. I know they probably thought it was cagey business sense to offer more at the same price, but i don't think they realize the potential of how much it hurts everyone all across the board.

..c::Yes, it is odd that people don't wonder why one teacher is more expensive (or at least odd that they don't ask).

Several of us in town check in with each other regularly to make sure we are keeping our rates even. Others, not so much. Hopefully we'll be able to mend some fences here, though, with time and some love.

My understanding is that when people ask they're told things like "oh, I just love to give out good deals" which again strikes me as a super odd thing to say. I think, at least here, the people who are undercutting are looking at it as good business sense but again don't realize what they're really doing.

And I totally agree on the love :) That's what's been keeping the other 3 of us sticking together - that, and respect! I think having respect for your fellow dancers plays a huge role in it too.

I think it's greed plain and simple. People think they will definitely be hired if they charge less, and also, some people are greedy not for money but for public dance opportunities and would readily dance for nothing because they do not think of dancing in a business sort of way. They just love dancing and getting attention for it.

WRT to undercutting - I don't think I've mentioned it on Bhuz, but if you think that BDers undervalue themselves, you should check out *hookers*. Now that prostitution is legal in NZ people advertise upfront in the newspaper. I saw adverts for half hour full service priced at $40, $60 recently. I was horrified. I think if we deserve as much as a clown, then those women deserve as much as a belly dancer. Surely.

OK they might not have the same overheads but ... *shudder*.

oooh here's a gem from last night! one of my students (middle eastern) approached me after class and wants me to dance at her family's banquet/event. DJ and all. She asked me for a cabaret number with a costume change to folkloric. 150 guests she says. Because she has been my student for a long time and because I like to help my students out I give her a serious discount rate of $275. She is appalled at the amount! AY YAY YAY! She thinks that is seriously expensive! She then starts telling me about all these superstars (literally - I won't name names but actual BDSS) who have danced at her banquet hall for way less. Uhhhhh I know quite a few of the actual superstars she was mentioning and unless she hired them 10 years ago when they were just starting out no way did she pay less! So I said ok I'll check with these big name girls one of whom I will be seeing this weekend and double check the rates with her to make sure we are all in the same ballpark. That stopped her in her tracks and immediately she said $275 was not a problem. Geeeeezzzzz! I was already doing her a favor!

Originally Posted by samiramirage

Isn't Shapoopie a song from Music Man?

shapoopie shapoopie shapoopie the girl is hard to get! Yes the Music Man! I am embarassed to say that I know ALL the lyrics!

Another thing I wanted to just mention is that I tried charging a base rate for a basic bellygram (I hate that term) of $150 in Los Angeles. Not thinking about undercutting but just to see if that would spark business. Even at that rate people were actually calling me and saying it was too high and that they found someone who was willing to do it for $75 and were calling around to get a cheaper rate than that! Whaaaaaatttttt? Who is charging such a low rate????? Who are these beotches!?? I don't get into my costume for less than $150 let alone dance! I was just testing the waters with that price and now I find out other dancers are willing to go out to a party for $50-75?!!! That really burns me up!

Eshta - Good for you for calling your student on her bluff! That's unbelievable.

Unfortuntaely, Eshta, I have had that experience here, too. I had a lady call and inquire with me and 2 others about our rates. We checked with each other and offered her exactly the same rate. and figured that whoever she went, she'd be basing it on the appearance or style she was looking for...turns out she went with someone charging much less. And listen, we were not charging alot compared with what other cities charge. No wonder I don't get a lot of gigs..... hmm.

I feel the exact same way! At a hafla a girl came up and asked me how much I'd charge to do a short performance at a corporate party. I said $175 - again cause she was my student - and 5 minutes later one of my dance friends came up and asked me how much I charge to do a short corporate party. It turned out that this lady was shopping the crowd and asking all the dancers what they charge. Luckily at least 3 of us all quoted her similar prices. She didn't hire any of us because she thought it was too expensive. Does anyone know the going rate for other kinds of party entertainment like clowns, strippers, mariachi bands? I know a mariachi band in LA is $300 an hour for 4 guys.

I looked around on google & it seems like between $400-$1000 is average for wedding entertainers like DJs, etc... My friend is a jazz guitarist, and he charges at least $250 or more if he plays alone, and much, much more if he plays with his band. They were paid $2500 for a one-hour community event this past spring, which worked out to $500 each. Compare that to what I quote people, and you'd think they'd be clamoring for dancers as entertainment!

It's frustrating, for sure. I think here, we're also dealing with a town with very few people who would think to hire a dancer, anyway, plus a saturation of people who dance anywhere and everywhere for free, so it's just not special or unique anymore.

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

I feel the exact same way! At a hafla a girl came up and asked me how much I'd charge to do a short performance at a corporate party. I said $175 - again cause she was my student - and 5 minutes later one of my dance friends came up and asked me how much I charge to do a short corporate party. It turned out that this lady was shopping the crowd and asking all the dancers what they charge. Luckily at least 3 of us all quoted her similar prices. She didn't hire any of us because she thought it was too expensive. Does anyone know the going rate for other kinds of party entertainment like clowns, strippers, mariachi bands? I know a mariachi band in LA is $300 an hour for 4 guys.

A GREAT place to check for rate comparison is Craig's List. Many times entertainers will place ads/classifieds listing their rates. It's nice because you can sift through to find out what other artists and entertainers are charging and get an idea of how our dance rates compare. You might also find support in local arts leagues. Frequently they host meetings for their members where entertainers and artists can get together to talk shop.

I've also had people call me to do the whole rate comparison. I don't mind shopping around, but I do get frustrated when it seems like potential clients want something for nothing.

I do want to say, though, that I really appreciate having this forum for discussion! It's so nice to hear what others think and experience, too!

Originally Posted by misha

A GREAT place to check for rate comparison is Craig's List. Many times entertainers will place ads/classifieds listing their rates. It's nice because you can sift through to find out what other artists and entertainers are charging and get an idea of how our dance rates compare. You might also find support in local arts leagues. Frequently they host meetings for their members where entertainers and artists can get together to talk shop.

That's a great idea Misha. Also maybe googling different entertainers websites. The ones with their own web presence might have different price points from those advertising for free in craiglist. (this thought only coming from the dismal "looking for dancer" rates on craigslist).

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

I don't get into my costume for less than $150 let alone dance!

This is me!!!! LOL....It has to totally be worth it for me to do a gig. I will do charity stuff.....but if it is a regular gig...then they have to pay my full rate!

Ok, so I have a question.

I live in a small town. There is not as much demand for bellydancers here, in restaurants, bellygrams, whatever, and my experience has been that some of the more seasoned dancers can be very possessive of their resaurant gigs. A few have become rather tight-lipped with me when I have tried speaking with them about ongoing rates, how they got their gigs, etc. I think they feel it is "their" racket and they don't want some newbie honing in on their digs.

So what's a newbie to do? I do feel a bit alone in this endeavor. I certainly want to market myself of my "worth", and get a fiar price,but I know of a few other girls (I am not bashing here, but yes, they do happen to be of the Tribal style), who are willing to dance for free or tips. How can I market myself in a small town?

Yes unfortunately in San Diego area we are having problems of undercutting dancers. I personally think that you should feel confident when you say your fee, you should be proud and not to compromise from your standard. There are a lot of dancers in our town that charge less than $120 or even perhaps lower than that for a regular 20-30min show which is way below standard going rate being as far as I know $150-250.
How do I know, because I get a call and I dont get hired even though the client tells me he/she is interested in hiring me but will call back (yeah right!), and I find the party information (same information/same time/same day) which is usually pretty rare in dancers website, or I hear from another dancer. So it is pretty obvious that this person is shopping around.
There are times I just give my price and no shopping around no bargaining, I get hired...so if the customer is looking for some cheap act, they get it...cause they dont care about talent, look, costuming, professionalism, all they care someone knows how to shake and entertain the crowd.
On the other hand, these type of undercutting dancers never get the huge corporate parties that pay at least $300-500 a show.
San Diego is a small town, few times I sent out emails to known dancers, few responded back to me with their price range. How sad!

Originally Posted by Elianae

Ok, so I have a question.

I live in a small town. There is not as much demand for bellydancers here, in restaurants, bellygrams, whatever, and my experience has been that some of the more seasoned dancers can be very possessive of their resaurant gigs. A few have become rather tight-lipped with me when I have tried speaking with them about ongoing rates, how they got their gigs, etc. I think they feel it is "their" racket and they don't want some newbie honing in on their digs.

So what's a newbie to do? I do feel a bit alone in this endeavor. I certainly want to market myself of my "worth", and get a fiar price,but I know of a few other girls (I am not bashing here, but yes, they do happen to be of the Tribal style), who are willing to dance for free or tips. How can I market myself in a small town?

I know, this is really hard. I don't know, because I have the same problem except for the restaurant part, which I was very lucky to have been able to join in on, here.

I'm struggling, too, with how to market myself. There are a lot of "free" dancers here. And we are a small town, too, and right now we are overrun with bellydancers dancing free at every single event in town (literally). Actually, the interesting thing here is that our tribal gals seem to do really well for themselves. They are a smaller group of ladies and seem to have really carved out a real niche for themselves.

Anyway, if you figure it out, let me know what you did. I am just about ready to throw in the towel, myself. Who's gonna pay for something they get for free? Especially when the free stuff they see is beginner-level, so how are they going to know what a pro dancer looks like? And why would they pay for something that has become commonplace? ..c::

While this morning I was reading the article in Gilded Serpent about Copyright of Music for Video production, I found this article. Thanks Michelle.....it is somewhat related
Michelle Joyce writes about How to Charge for the Gilded Serpent
I am going to use some of these tactics seriously...Lately I am getting emails for party fee request and if I am available. I response back to them asking to call me because I offer different customized packages that price might change, and never get response back...I think it is a scam by local dancers trying to get information how much I charge or bother me by making me thinking that oh how nice I am getting private parties....Email addresses are coming from hotmail, gmail, yahoo which 5 year old can get....hmmm....

Dilek, it may not be what you think. I get requests like that all the time, I respond back with the price range of my services and provide some brief details, for example length of show, does it include fire, is traveling included, do they want other dancers, dj or musicians, etc. I always ask for more info from them.
I usually get responses back and I am often hired like that.
Sometimes people just don't like calling. Also often people might send an email like that to several dancers, and figure whoever will get back to them with the most desirable prices/services is the one they will hire.

Originally Posted by misha

One teacher, who was once my instructor, now charges $125 for as many classes as you can take in an 8 week period. She offers 4-6 classes a week and the $125 will cover you to go to as many of them as you like. It's a great deal, to be sure, but I was very surprised when she did this as she was once a great champion against undercutting. I'm also surprised to read that her new marketing advertises that she has "the cheapest rates in town." What an odd thing to say about your class, eh? Please understand, I'm not criticizing, just more scratching my head and trying to figure out why she'd do that...is it undercutting? I think it is - especially since a student could conceivably take 4 classes a week for 8 weeks so 32 classes for $125 instead of 8 classes for $100...it seems odd that someone would clearly undercut and yet not seem to understand what they were doing to the local dance economy.

I'm not so sure that I view this example as undercutting - it seems like an astute business move on her part. She's probably banking on the likelihood that most students won't get to more than 1 class a week (or not very often). But, by offering that possibility, she's getting students to pay more upfront. She's essentially locking in a higher payment, not less. I'm starting to think about various ways to achieve that in the future myself, given the state of the economy (I'm not saying I'd offer this deal particularly).

Undercutting would be if she pro-rata'd that offer backwards and said "OK, unlimited classes is $125, so if you want to do only half the classes, it'll only be $62.50." Because then she's just reduced the minimum term payment substantially.

I don't like the idea of using a 'cheapest classes in town!' line to advertise and probably wouldn't use it myself, but it's really a misleading line...there's fine print! I think what she's advertising is 'it's the cheapest per class if you actually pay me more, but then attend more classes.'

Originally Posted by turkishdancer

While this morning I was reading the article in Gilded Serpent about Copyright of Music for Video production, I found this article. Thanks Michelle.....it is somewhat related
Michelle Joyce writes about How to Charge for the Gilded Serpent
I am going to use some of these tactics seriously...Lately I am getting emails for party fee request and if I am available. I response back to them asking to call me because I offer different customized packages that price might change, and never get response back...I think it is a scam by local dancers trying to get information how much I charge or bother me by making me thinking that oh how nice I am getting private parties....Email addresses are coming from hotmail, gmail, yahoo which 5 year old can get....hmmm....

I used to be a cheap dancer when I was first getting started. I was terrible and just starting out and didn't get paid a lot. I didn't have money, so getting a little was better than losing a private party to someone else.

Someone once told me something that will stay with me forever: "if you have a lot of work and feel busy, you aren't charging enough." It is so true.

Once I got experience and people knew me I raised my rates (and posted them on my website). So I sort of see undercutters as doing me a favor. All of the cheap clients will call them. Plus, being so much more expensive than dancers on Craigslist makes me look more professional. After years of working for difficult people, I now try to only get the kind of client who is proud to have one of the more expensive dancers at their party.

But I am really freaked out about the economy and what it will do to the private party biz. I see a very real drop in business right now.