Thread: Attitude: Competitive or courteous?

Some belly dancers believe that conflict should be avoided at all costs. They believe that we should be warm and giving to everyone, and if someone tries to exploit them (ie, take advantage of them without giving in return), they believe that this person should be given the benefit of the doubt and forgiven. They believe that we should all band together as a community in a common goal of elevating the art form.

Some belly dancers believe that each and every belly dance performer, vendor, teacher, and video producer is in competition with everyone else. They believe that it is appropriate to be ruthless. They believe that generous people are naive and deserve to be exploited. They believe it's okay to undermine other dancers at every turn by undercutting prices, spreading rumors, etc.

I think most of us fall somewhere in the middle - but it's a pretty wide continuum. Where do you stand?

Consider these examples:

1. At a "teacher's showcase" event in a restaurant, there is a flyer table where ALL participating performers can place their flyers advertising their classes. One performer takes it a step farther - during intermission, she goes to each and every table in the restaurant and hands her flyers to the people sitting there - people who most likely are students of the other performers. Is this savvy marketing or ruthless self-promotion at the expense of others?

2. A local dance supply shop has flyers at the counter advertising classes taught by Dancer A. When Dancer B comes in, the shop owner invites her to bring her flyers in, too so she does. Is Dancer B competing fairly by putting her flyers in the same place as the other dancer, or should she find other places to distribute her promotional materials?

3. A dancer sees promotional text that she likes on a different dancer's web site. Is it okay for her to copy it word-for-word and put it on her own web site without telling the original person? What if the original person is 2,000 miles away and therefore not a direct competitor - does that make it okay? What if the original person is local and competing for the same students and gigs?

4. A corporation is looking to hire a dancer to perform at its "diversity day" event, and contacts two local dancers. Both dancers are young, slim, and professional-level in their skills. Only one will be chosen. The organizer hasn't actually seen either dancer in person, only their web info. Dancer A tells the organizer that Dancer B is old and fat and doesn't look anything like the photos on her web site. Is Dancer A using astute competitive practices, or is she being a slimeball?

Who else wants to pose a scenario for us to examine?

1. This is dirty. I've seen it done and makes me queasy. Those who are interested will pick up the information or find the dancer they want to talk to. There's no need for this "up the ante" stuff, really.

2. This is fair- no one should get upset about it. The bd shops I go to has everyone's card in it and if you ask, will allow you to bring in posters or flyers about upcoming workshops etc.

3. No- word for word is never ok without explicit permision from the other person regardless of how far away you are.

4. She's being a slimeball and it will come back to get her ;) This has happened to me before where an organizer contacts a couple dancers and then picks whoever gets back to them first (we all have the same rates and uphold them). I've had organizers call me back for a future engagements. Also, if I can't take a gig, I offer the oppurtunity to the other girls who dance in the restaraunts/professionally.

This also got me thinking about my promotional practicies:

The reason why I have business cards, and am building a website and have mini workshops is so I can share my love of this dance with others, not play Queen of the Castle.

I DO want to dance more and be hired for performances/classes/workshops but not at the expense of my reputation or out of disrepsect for other local dancers, some who I call my friends.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Consider these examples:

1. At a "teacher's showcase" event in a restaurant, there is a flyer table where ALL participating performers can place their flyers advertising their classes. One performer takes it a step farther - during intermission, she goes to each and every table in the restaurant and hands her flyers to the people sitting there - people who most likely are students of the other performers. Is this savvy marketing or ruthless self-promotion at the expense of others?

2. A local dance supply shop has flyers at the counter advertising classes taught by Dancer A. When Dancer B comes in, the shop owner invites her to bring her flyers in, too so she does. Is Dancer B competing fairly by putting her flyers in the same place as the other dancer, or should she find other places to distribute her promotional materials?

3. A dancer sees promotional text that she likes on a different dancer's web site. Is it okay for her to copy it word-for-word and put it on her own web site without telling the original person? What if the original person is 2,000 miles away and therefore not a direct competitor - does that make it okay? What if the original person is local and competing for the same students and gigs?

4. A corporation is looking to hire a dancer to perform at its "diversity day" event, and contacts two local dancers. Both dancers are young, slim, and professional-level in their skills. Only one will be chosen. The organizer hasn't actually seen either dancer in person, only their web info. Dancer A tells the organizer that Dancer B is old and fat and doesn't look anything like the photos on her web site. Is Dancer A using astute competitive practices, or is she being a slimeball?

1. Restaurant Showcase: I put my stuff with everybody else's; but I'm quite a bit of a rule-follower in cases like these. When I do see this more "aggresive" action, such as going from table to table, sometimes I wonder if I should be doing it, too.

2. Dance Supply Shop Flyers: I would ask to put my flyers out, too. Chances are, there are multiple dance schools with info out at the shop; heck, one shop near me has an entire wall devoted to flyers from different studios!

3. Web Site Text: never, not in a million years, would I use someone else's copy. That said, it can happen that folks will use very similar or the same verbage in presenting something, but it will probably be limited to just a few words or a phrase; more than that and it's probably direct copying, which is a big no-no without express permission from the original author. In addition, I'd say the original author should be credited, too.

4. "Diversity Day Disaster": how do people sleep at night???

Deborah

Shira,
These are really interesting! Here are my thoughts on the scenarios you posted:

1. At a "teacher's showcase" event in a restaurant, there is a flyer table where ALL participating performers can place their flyers advertising their classes. One performer takes it a step farther...

It's excessive on the part of this dancer to aggressively hand out the fliers at the individual tables when there is a flier table set up that is open to all. However, I think it would be OK for the dancer to do some verbal self-promotion as she engages with attendees...as in, "Oh, hey great to see you! BTW, will I see you at my hafla coming up next week? If you're interested, I have some fliers over on the flier table!"

2. A local dance supply shop has flyers at the counter advertising classes taught by Dancer A. When Dancer B comes in, the shop owner invites her to bring her flyers in, too so she does. Is Dancer B competing fairly by putting her flyers in the same place as the other dancer, or should she find other places to distribute her promotional materials?

I don't see any problem here with Dancer B putting out her materials, especially since she was invited to by the shop owner. This shop is "neutral turf" because it's in the best business interest of the shop owner to maintain good relationships with a variety of local teachers.


3. A dancer sees promotional text that she likes on a different dancer's web site. Is it okay for her to copy it word-for-word and put it on her own web site without telling the original person? What if the original person is 2,000 miles away and therefore not a direct competitor - does that make it okay? What if the original person is local and competing for the same students and gigs?

This is wrong...it's plagiarism, simple as that.

4. A corporation is looking to hire a dancer to perform at its "diversity day" event, and contacts two local dancers. Both dancers are young, slim, and professional-level in their skills. Only one will be chosen. The organizer hasn't actually seen either dancer in person, only their web info. Dancer A tells the organizer that Dancer B is old and fat and doesn't look anything like the photos on her web site. Is Dancer A using astute competitive practices, or is she being a slimeball?

Um, she's being a slimeball.

I believe that competition is a necessary part of what we do as businesspeople (because those of us who are performing/teaching for money are businesspeople, whether we like it or not), but competition does not mean sacrificing ethics. I believe to succeed in my business I have to stand on my own merits rather than succeed through the destruction of others (cause there's no success in that...it just means you are the last man/woman standing). The last example, in particular, smacks of desperation on the part of the slimeball dancer.

This is an interesting topic! I'll see if I can think of a scenario...

There's nothing wrong with being competitive and being good at advertising, but a dancer can do that while still being courteous.
1) Nothing wrong with posting promotional materials at the same place as another dancer. Each dancer has something different to offer.
2) As far as handing out flyers to people who "might" be someone else's student: I take classes from more than one teacher so teacher B
handing me a flyer isnt going to hurt teacher A's business.
3) Not being competitive, that's called plagarism. You at least have to write it in your own words and to decribe YOU.
4) This scenario isn't being competitive. It is called being insecure and unable to handle the competition.

I believe both. I believe that conflict should be avoided at every opportunity, and I believe that as performers and teachers we are in a competitive business market. I FIRMLY believe that the best way to avoid conflict and grow your business is to work with other teachers and dancers and promote the industry as a whole.

1) Handing out fliers vs. leaving them on a table: great idea. Gives a face and personality to the flier rather than a piece of paper that will end up in the trash. "Hey, you're taking classes with X on Tuesdays? She is a FABULOUS teacher, I've taken classes with her myself, isn't she great? Hey, if you're interested, I'm teaching X class on X date if you're interested in coming. I think you'll really like it." or something to that effect. Talking to prospective students is NEVER a bad idea.

2) In a free market, you advertise and promote where you can. If more dancers/teachers are advertising there, it actually creates MORE interest. Why do you think Blenz is always across the street from Starbucks and two doors down from Cuppa Joe?

3) Plagarism is plagarism and its lazy and hurtful to your business (not to mention your Karma).

4) Slander and outright lying again is hurtful to your business and your Karma.

Another scenario: once, I arranged for my students to take a field trip to visit the home-based vending business of a local dancer. Of course, the students had a fine time shopping. I overheard one of my beginning students commenting to the vendor (who also performed and taught in the area) that she found it hard to move and play finger cymbals at the same time. And then I overheard the vendor/instructor replying, "Well, you should come to MY classes! I have a foolproof way of teaching finger cymbals that ANYONE can learn from."

I couldn't help but feel just a bit cranky. My students have ALWAYS been welcome to take classes from other teachers, but I kind of felt as though this other person was abusing my support of her business by proactively promoting her own classes to my students. I also felt as though the way she replied to my student seemed to insinuate that there was something wrong with how I taught finger cymbals. (I didn't mind the fact that she had flyers on display promoting her own classes, I just didn't like how aggressive she was in the conversation I'd overheard.)

So, do you think I was right to feel cranky, or overreacting?

My first teacher was very jealous of the other local teacher and spoke very negative of her and FORBID us from taking classes with her while we were her students. I stuck with her for five years and decided I couldn't learn from her anymore b/c of her attitude. She actually wouldn't share workshop information with us UNLESS she was able to vend at them. It was that point I said, so long.

I haven't looked back. I do wish there was a PROFESSIONAL level teacher in my area. I can only do workshops.

Originally Posted by anyadance

I DO want to dance more and be hired for performances/classes/workshops but not at the expense of my reputation or out of disrepsect for other local dancers, some who I call my friends.

I'm ITA with the above.

One thing I do that really seems to surprise some people is that I'll refer class inquiries to other teachers if I know it'll be closer for the prospective student. There's no way I'm going to pretend like someone has to drive 45 minutes to take my class when I know for a fact there's a perfectly decent teacher 10 minutes away from them.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

So, do you think I was right to feel cranky, or overreacting?

I think it is fair to feel a little bothered...and I hope you had a conversation with her later about it.

Another scenario: once, I arranged for my students to take a field trip to visit the home-based vending business of a local dancer. Of course, the students had a fine time shopping. I overheard one of my beginning students commenting to the vendor (who also performed and taught in the area) that she found it hard to move and play finger cymbals at the same time. And then I overheard the vendor/instructor replying, "Well, you should come to MY classes! I have a foolproof way of teaching finger cymbals that ANYONE can learn from."

I couldn't help but feel just a bit cranky. My students have ALWAYS been welcome to take classes from other teachers, but I kind of felt as though this other person was abusing my support of her business by proactively promoting her own classes to my students. I also felt as though the way she replied to my student seemed to insinuate that there was something wrong with how I taught finger cymbals. (I didn't mind the fact that she had flyers on display promoting her own classes, I just didn't like how aggressive she was in the conversation I'd overheard.)

So, do you think I was right to feel cranky, or overreacting?

I think it's wrong. Unless the other teacher was under the impression that your student was teaching herself zills (and doesn't sound like it), her comment really undermined your skills as teacher.

As for your questions:

1. Smart business. Being friendly and putting yourself out there will probably attract more clients. It's aggressive, sure, but it probably works well.

2. That's completely fair.

3. I don't think stealing text is ever right. That has nothing, IMO, to do with being competitive. You're being lazy or uncreative.

4. Being a jerk is never acceptable. That is taking it over the top.

Here's sort of a scenario. What about billing yourself as the "best" in the area (sort of like how restaurants will all claim to have the best Thai, for instance)?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Another scenario: once, I arranged for my students to take a field trip to visit the home-based vending business of a local dancer. Of course, the students had a fine time shopping. I overheard one of my beginning students commenting to the vendor (who also performed and taught in the area) that she found it hard to move and play finger cymbals at the same time. And then I overheard the vendor/instructor replying, "Well, you should come to MY classes! I have a foolproof way of teaching finger cymbals that ANYONE can learn from."

I couldn't help but feel just a bit cranky. My students have ALWAYS been welcome to take classes from other teachers, but I kind of felt as though this other person was abusing my support of her business by proactively promoting her own classes to my students. I also felt as though the way she replied to my student seemed to insinuate that there was something wrong with how I taught finger cymbals. (I didn't mind the fact that she had flyers on display promoting her own classes, I just didn't like how aggressive she was in the conversation I'd overheard.)

So, do you think I was right to feel cranky, or overreacting?

This happened to me recently- but I'm offering a finger cymbal workshop! I didn't say OH MY, you really ought to learn from ME because I'm hot sh**. I said, co-incidentally, I have a finger cymbal workshop that may help you develop your skills. The woman you're referring to was being greedy and dirty! BAH!

This goes back to the i'm better than and I know more than and I'M THE QUEEN OF THE CASTLE AND SANDBOX.

You should have felt slighted! I would have! Headhunting/poaching is wrong and silly. It also shows that someone is jealous of your success and they want it all for themselves. mine! all mine! mwahahahaha.

Originally Posted by indigostars

Here's sort of a scenario. What about billing yourself as the "best" in the area (sort of like how restaurants will all claim to have the best Thai, for instance)?

Here's something I've noticed lately- people who bill themselves as "the best" are usually trying to compensate for something or they are the "only" in the area so they have nothing to compare themselves to.

My partner is almost a black belt in kung fu and his Sifu (master) owns a school and his philosophy is "you will always be #2 in kung fu because someone will be better than you- a reason to train harder!" But now you have to imagine a bald chinese man with a little belly and broken english saying it.

I've been at workshops with the "best" and watched them yawn and lie on the floor and not participate...and we were taking a workshop with a woman who is considered to be amazing and incredibly knowledgeable. I think once you go to the place of feeling that you are the best, you lose the sense of wonder that accompanies M.E.dance and stop learning. If you're the best, what else is there left to learn?

Shira, thanks for lighting a fire...

1. I think talking to customers would be fine, but I think handing out material is taking it too far. Imagine if everyone was pushing their flyers on customers! It would be awful. I don't think the behaviour is "ruthless", I'm just not sure it's appropriate, when there seems to be a tacit agreement about marketing material.

2. I see no problem here.

3. Plagiarism is simply wrong and demonstrates a slovenly, apathetic mind.

4. That's not marketing, that's just being nasty and potentially slanderous (stating that the other dancer is misrepresenting herself).

Okay, I have a question!

A client contacts you about performing at a birthday party. Your quote is $200, and let's say, in your community, $200 would be at the lower end of the "going rate" - but not undercutting. The client tells you that another dancer quoted $250. You know this dancer is more experienced, which is why she charges more. How do you justify your rate? Do you say, "Well, $200 is a fair rate, you shouldn't need to pay more than that" (implying she's overcharging), or do you say, "Actually, she's a more experienced dancer than I am" (which may affect the client's opinion of you as a professional performer)?

The second response may be more courteous and correct, but it's not the most competitive response. WWBD?

1. I'd say it is fine, and would probably think "oh wow why didn't we think of that?"
2. Fine.
3. Theft. In the latter case, really dumb theft because you'll be called on it eventually.
4. Being a slimeball.

Nat's question: I would instead say "well our rates do vary and if you would like to try her services, please do by all means, it's up to you" while kicking myself for undercharging, probably.

1. Fine. Happens here all the time. Events here aren't cheap. Even dancers who come to events and are mostly there to smooze and hand out flyers are welcome (not paying and standing outside to flyer...distrusted and word gets around). I don't mind being flyered and meeting the people who'll be dancing at an event. It sometimes helps me put faces to names if not everyone is on a flyer or I don't recognize someone out of make-up. I do it. I don't bad mouth anyone when I push events my friends and I are in.


2. Dancer B thinks "great! This is a place to promote!" and I don't blame her. Many dancers here from different studios have promo up in the same few places. It's life.

3. Plagarism. Uncool.

4. Stupid, crude, lying. It will bite that dancer in the ass. It can also easily checked. I've been asked if my card photos are "up to date" and I don't take offense when asked or think twice about it.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Another scenario: once, I arranged for my students to take a field trip to visit the home-based vending business of a local dancer. Of course, the students had a fine time shopping. I overheard one of my beginning students commenting to the vendor (who also performed and taught in the area) that she found it hard to move and play finger cymbals at the same time. And then I overheard the vendor/instructor replying, "Well, you should come to MY classes! I have a foolproof way of teaching finger cymbals that ANYONE can learn from."

I couldn't help but feel just a bit cranky. My students have ALWAYS been welcome to take classes from other teachers, but I kind of felt as though this other person was abusing my support of her business by proactively promoting her own classes to my students. I also felt as though the way she replied to my student seemed to insinuate that there was something wrong with how I taught finger cymbals. (I didn't mind the fact that she had flyers on display promoting her own classes, I just didn't like how aggressive she was in the conversation I'd overheard.)

So, do you think I was right to feel cranky, or overreacting?

I think you have a reason to be cranky but to let it blow over.

I also think people have doubts about anyone who pushes their teaching method as foolproof and that it's not the best tactic...it's doomed to a small failure rate, NO teaching method works for everyone.

I think it would have been much smarter for her to tell your student that it gets easier, maybe give her a small tip or advice (something to practice or think about), and encourage her to keep at the zills. It would have kept the other teacher "a class act" and planted the seed in case your students does look for another teaching style to help her with zills.

I have been working in the corporate world for 12+ years. I know - not an eternity but long enough to learn a thing or two.

Practices such as the restaurant example are normal in any other industry. Why is it not acceptable for bellydancing?

One thing I have noticed is that dancers (and studios) who are successful are the ones who pound the pavement DAILY and makes them self noticed. They are pro-active. I think that is a positive thing. It will force others to do the same.

Item 2 is just simple competition. I see nothing wrong with it. What it does is make both Dancer A and Dancer B step up their game. Maybe they advertise their specialty or get more training to be a better teacher. Some people will go after the cheapest class. Some will go after the most skilled. Survival of the fittest. This is true competition.

Item 3 is not suggested in my opinion. Though - I feel it is ok to see maybe some text and be "inspired" to write something similar. Copying word for word is not cool.

Item 4 is not right. Though - I know - personally - that I would question Dancer A's ethics. IS this someone I would want to represent the image of my company? Now - this is a decision for the customer to make. Though - I feel most would see through this lie. In the corporate world - this is slimy too.

I know that most do not agree with me but...

If we ran the Bellydance world like - well - every other industry, I believe things would be different. Sure - there would still be undercutters and there would be harsh competition. I say - leave this to the customer to decide.

Now - I realize that 80% of the time, the person watching you dance is watching a bellydancer for the first time. So - if you completely suck - that is their overall impression of bellydance. I kind of believe that theory and kind of do not.

oh - this is so hard to put my thoughts into words. There are just too many scenarios to cover. This is a perfect example of a topic that needs to be handled in a round table discussion.

Originally Posted by Nat242

A client contacts you about performing at a birthday party. Your quote is $200, and let's say, in your community, $200 would be at the lower end of the "going rate" - but not undercutting. The client tells you that another dancer quoted $250. You know this dancer is more experienced, which is why she charges more. How do you justify your rate? Do you say, "Well, $200 is a fair rate, you shouldn't need to pay more than that" (implying she's overcharging), or do you say, "Actually, she's a more experienced dancer than I am" (which may affect the client's opinion of you as a professional performer)?

The second response may be more courteous and correct, but it's not the most competitive response. WWBD?

I have been on both sides. I have received the calls stating that Dancer A charges $250+ and the other side which is Dancer B charges $80. I am honest about my skill set. I never give specifics about the competition. I simply state that each person charges different rates based on experience and specialties.

One time when I had a call about a gig and the customer stated that another dancer was willing to do it for way less, I simply justified why I charge what I charge. I never slammed the other dancer nor did I give the "you get what you pay for" comment. I only discussed me.

Well - the customer choose the cheaper dancer. It happens. It sucks but such is competition.

Originally Posted by Nat242

A client contacts you about performing at a birthday party. Your quote is $200, and let's say, in your community, $200 would be at the lower end of the "going rate" - but not undercutting. The client tells you that another dancer quoted $250. You know this dancer is more experienced, which is why she charges more. How do you justify your rate? Do you say, "Well, $200 is a fair rate, you shouldn't need to pay more than that" (implying she's overcharging), or do you say, "Actually, she's a more experienced dancer than I am" (which may affect the client's opinion of you as a professional performer)?

The second response may be more courteous and correct, but it's not the most competitive response. WWBD?

"The pay rates from individual dancers do fluctuate some within a certain range. My rate is within the local rates you'll find for professionals in this area, as is dancer X's. Dancers decide their price based on a variety of personal, professional, and economic reasons."

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Consider these examples:

1. At a "teacher's showcase" event in a restaurant, there is a flyer table where ALL participating performers can place their flyers advertising their classes. One performer takes it a step farther - during intermission, she goes to each and every table in the restaurant and hands her flyers to the people sitting there - people who most likely are students of the other performers. Is this savvy marketing or ruthless self-promotion at the expense of others?

2. A local dance supply shop has flyers at the counter advertising classes taught by Dancer A. When Dancer B comes in, the shop owner invites her to bring her flyers in, too so she does. Is Dancer B competing fairly by putting her flyers in the same place as the other dancer, or should she find other places to distribute her promotional materials?

3. A dancer sees promotional text that she likes on a different dancer's web site. Is it okay for her to copy it word-for-word and put it on her own web site without telling the original person? What if the original person is 2,000 miles away and therefore not a direct competitor - does that make it okay? What if the original person is local and competing for the same students and gigs?

4. A corporation is looking to hire a dancer to perform at its "diversity day" event, and contacts two local dancers. Both dancers are young, slim, and professional-level in their skills. Only one will be chosen. The organizer hasn't actually seen either dancer in person, only their web info. Dancer A tells the organizer that Dancer B is old and fat and doesn't look anything like the photos on her web site. Is Dancer A using astute competitive practices, or is she being a slimeball?

1 = ruthless self promotion (and rude)
2 = this is completely fair and perfectly fine
3 = never ok to copy someone, unless she gets permission
4 = slimeball and should be shot and thrown in the East River

Originally Posted by Nat242

A client contacts you about performing at a birthday party. Your quote is $200, and let's say, in your community, $200 would be at the lower end of the "going rate" - but not undercutting. The client tells you that another dancer quoted $250. You know this dancer is more experienced, which is why she charges more. How do you justify your rate? Do you say, "Well, $200 is a fair rate, you shouldn't need to pay more than that" (implying she's overcharging), or do you say, "Actually, she's a more experienced dancer than I am" (which may affect the client's opinion of you as a professional performer)?

The second response may be more courteous and correct, but it's not the most competitive response. WWBD?

How about just saying "I am not well acquainted with her, but my going rate is $200"

then next time, you can charge more.

To the original post:
1) It's not exactly ruthless, but it would be so annoying if everyone did it!
2) perfectly OK
3) Wrong under any circumstances!
4) Criminally wrong.

To the zill teaching example:
I would have felt cranky. If it was someone I had a good enough relationship with, I'd say 'Hey, I brought my students here to support your business. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to sell them on why you think you're a better teacher than me while they're here.' If she did it again, I'd reconsider bringing groups of students to shop with her.

Billing yourself as 'the best' in the area:
Automatically puts down others. All the others. And it's pretty subjective. If you've got something to back up that judgment with -- a title from a competition, a quote from a famous expert -- advertise THAT. Yes, it's pretty standard advertising practice in a lot of industries, but not in industries where the competitors expect to hang out together or offer referrals to one another or share a potential gig someday.

The price quote:
As long as I know I'm not undercutting, I'm not going to take on the job of selling my client on why they should pay MORE to hire someone else. That's the job of the person who charges higher than the base local rate. I'm not going to criticize her pricing to the client, either, even if I think she's being delusional. I'd just say 'Mmm hmmmm.' and move the conversation along. If the person in question were a friend, I might feel compelled to say 'Oh, yes, I've seen XX dance, she's lovely.' I think clients respond well to seeing you as a warm, friendly person, anyway, rather than a cold, calculating....


Competition in our business is clouded by the fact that we're a small community, we often need to work closely together -- and many of us are friends, or would like to be. After all, we share a love for a pretty obscure art form.

I'm a businessperson, and I think having the competition out in the open and behaving like ethical competitors is better than pretending we're all BFF and then stabbing each other in the back (which seems to be what happens when women can't deal with openly competing).

I'm glad everyone thinks plagiarism is uncool. I've just this moment had to send an email to a dancer who's website biography bears a remarkable resemblence to my own. *Sigh* Nice to be reassured that I'm not just being nitpicky.

I don't think there's ever a need to be viscious in competition, and I think that ultimately, being an overcompetitive ass is bad for your own business. There's nothing wrong with keeping your cards close to your chest, or not sharing all your gigs around, but generosity seems to reap it's own rewards. For eg, I share lots of info via way of articles on my website. It means I get higher search engine ranking, and thus more business. I also refer gigs I can't do to other dancers, or book them and take a commission. They do the same for me in return, so we all benefit from the collective power of each other's marketing.

There's nothing mystical about karma, people just like to give business to, and deal with those that are generous with them. And, when everyone puts their efforts into creating opportunities rather than hoarding them, the sum total of oppotunities expands rather than contracts.

1. Hmmm.... Ive seen this done before at Haflas and so forth. Events where several teachers in the area get together and have student performances and classes etc etc. I have no objection to other teachers handing out fliers. In situations where there are many different teachers getting together its clear that there will be promotional spots for different classes and such. Its not dirty, its not mean, its business. Besides, students are not cattle. They have minds of their own and can make their own choice about which class they'd like to attend. Who knows, they may end up going to both! (I did for quite sometime!) Also, each teacher has a different specialty. What one teacher may teach very well, their current instructor may not. If the best interests of the students is taken into account and not the "territorial" disputes of the teachers, there should be no problem with students learning about other teachers in the area. So basically, if its all done with the spirit of community, and not with a competitive territorial motive... I think its just fine.


2.Again, I find nothing wrong with this... Lots of dance supply shops have fliers for different Ballet teachers in the area, why should belly dance be any different? Variety is the spice of capitalism. Potential students should have lots of different things to choose from. Allow the students to choose whom they would like to study with. Again... students are not mindless cattle. And if you have their best interests in mind and not just the silver lining their pockets... you should see nothing wrong with it either. If you are afraid your fliers or promo materials are going to be in competitions with somebody elses... make them a brighter color and look professional.

3. An emphatic HELL NO. This is a no no, no matter what the situation of the other dancer is. If your information on your website is counterfeit, how much else of you is counterfeit? Why cant you use your own creativity to come up with your own text? Is it that you dont have any? Then what kind of dancer are you? No No NO on this.

4.Lying is/has never been/never will be a fair business practice. Any time you open your mouth and speak and untruth you've done something wrong in my opinion. This is just slimy. Im sure that if anybody in MY community got caught doing something like this... they would be ousted and shamed. That's terrible.

Originally Posted by Amber_moon

1. If you are afraid your fliers or promo materials are going to be in competitions with somebody elses... make them a brighter color and look professional.

Yes, that's exactly it. Compete by improving what you offer, not by dragging your competitors down.

Gee, if only someone told the politicians that.....c::

1. Is this savvy marketing or ruthless self-promotion at the expense of others?
While I don't necessarily think it's hugely unethical- personally it's too forward for my taste. I'd avoid this teacher like the plague. Her dancing and her teaching skills should stand on their own.

2. Is the decision to choose an almost-identical title savvy marketing, to capitalize on the buzz the other dancer has generated and perhaps benefit from the confusion, or is it ruthless competition?
I can't presume to know the intentions. But with knowledge of the first video it at the very least seems *very competitive* in what is a small community.

3. Is this a smart competitive practice, or an underhanded trick?
Really really lame.

4. Is Dancer B competing fairly by putting her flyers in the same place as the other dancer, or should she find other places to distribute her promotional materials?
It's a dance shop. The owner invited both dancers to put flyers there. It's all good.

5. What if the original person is 2,000 miles away and therefore not a direct competitor - does that make it okay? What if the original person is local and competing for the same students and gigs?
I think it's lame regardless of proximity. Inspiration is FINE, but at least have the courtesy of rewording it.

6. Dancer A tells the organizer that Dancer B is old and fat and doesn't look anything like the photos on her web site. Is Dancer A using astute competitive practices, or is she being a slimeball?
Completely abhorrently unethical and lacking forethought.

As Sasha said on tribe, just because someone CAN do something doesn't mean they should, and it doesn't make it right.
Trying to paint others in a bad light usually backfires and makes the speaker look bad.
When we have confidence in our dance and what we have to offer we have no need to do those sorts of things.
Regarding fees- I hear often "but so and so charges $XXX" (less than me). I reply that my experience and training is reflected in both my dance and my fees. Sometimes I get hired, sometimes not. It's all good provided said other dancer is charging at or above the going rates. If she's under that $200 line (in DC/Baltimore area)- she's undercutting and unprofessional.