Thread: "Professional show" vs "Amateur show"

A while back, I attended an excellent belly dance workshop featuring an instructor that I admire.

The show, however, was disappointing. The workshop instructor was brilliant, no complaints there. However, aside from her, only about 4 other performances in the 2-hour show were at a professional level of skill, and the rest of it was basically a student recital of the sponsor. I'm not exaggerating - one beginning class was on stage for about 10 minutes, then there were the "advanced beginners", and so on.

I couldn't help but feel a bit ripped off for my $20 show ticket. As I watched, I found myself wondering, "I paid money for *this*? I incurred the cost of an overnight hotel room so I could stick around and watch *this*?"

This made me start thinking about standards for workshop shows.

What level of dance skill should workshop attendees justifiably expect to see if they come in from out of town to attend a workshop and its corresponding show? And what is a fair fee to pay for seeing the show? Professional dancers only? Highly skilled hobbyists who might not be suitable for professional work due to age, body type, or other issues but are still damned good dancers? Advanced-level student dancers? Anybody who bought a workshop ticket and wants to be in the show with no filter on skill/experience? Student recital of the sponsor?

And let's say you, as an event sponsor, decide to merge your workshop show with your student recital, or let's say you decide to let anybody dance who asks to without doing any filtering/auditioning. Should the flyers warn workshop attendees that they'll be seeing at least 90 minutes of your student recital and only 30 minutes of professional dancing if they buy a show ticket? Should such a show be marketed to the general public?

So, my first message above was specific to workshop shows. But the issue of "professional" vs "amateur" shows goes beyond workshops.

How many people actually differentiate in their marketing between a show of all skill levels (including student performers) vs a show of professionals only? Ie, how many market their "anyone who wants to dance" shows strictly to the belly dance community and friends/family of the students, versus how many advertise those "anyone who wants to dance" shows to the general public?

Should we market "anyone who wants to dance" shows to the general public? Does such marketing create an image in the public's mind that all of us are as unskilled as some of the fledgling performers who may sign up to perform in such shows? Does it undermine the opportunity for professionals to be paid what they're worth when the public pays money to attend a show and then sees novice performers who are still working on their skills? Or is it better to "expose" the public to our dance form regardless of the skill level they may be seeing?

By the way, I firmly believe that it's important to create opportunities for students to perform. I'm just selective about who my marketing targets when I promote such shows.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Professional dancers only? Highly skilled hobbyists who might not be suitable for professional work due to age, body type, or other issues but are still damned good dancers?

That's who'd I'd think should be in such a show, otherwise it should be billed differently. Also, some advanced students are pretty incredible, ones that are too busy to dance pro, but are just as good. I don't think that any show, other than a student night, should allow dancers to dance without any filter, it isn't fair to the paying audience.

I had a similar experience this past year. It's not what we're used to, and it was disappointing. Luckily, my troupe danced, so we had not had to pay for the show itself. I'd be kinda pissed if I'd stayed an extra night!

We've talked about inviting a student group to dance at the shows we put on as an act of encouragement as well as to show off some burgeoning talent, but that's one act in the whole show.

I don't know, that's what I think anyway.

Most of the workshops I've attended have had shows that were mostly like recitals, with a minimum cost ($10 to $15) and were primarily marketed and attended by workshop participants and their families. I think in many communities it would be hard to market a professional level show of only bellydance to the general public, I think it's usually easier to have a mixed show with other styles of dance. However, for the upcoming Halloween workshop we're having here in New Orleans, we're trying for a more "professional" show in a general public venue (a club in the French Quarter). I'm interested to see how it will be received.

I'd also like to add an aside, I'm a big proponent of time limits. An "amateur" show is so much better when you aren't watching the same amateur troop/dancer for 10 minutes in a row.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

So, my first message above was specific to workshop shows. But the issue of "professional" vs "amateur" shows goes beyond workshops.

How many people actually differentiate in their marketing between a show of all skill levels (including student performers) vs a show of professionals only?

By the way, I firmly believe that it's important to create opportunities for students to perform. I'm just selective about who my marketing targets when I promote such shows.

I differentiate all-skill-level shows from pro-only shows -- it's absolutely essential.

I will not advertise an all-level show to the general public, as only professional-level folks should represent the art in such a setting. For the same reason, I wouldn't put a group of beginning dancers on the stage at the county fair or at "world day" at the university; only very well-trained intermediates and above perform in public settings like those, IMO, and then only as a group.

The GP always deserves the best we have to offer. Everyone starts somewhere on his/her path to BD discovery, and that start is at the beginning. As our training increases and our gifts unfold, we then earn the right to represent our chosen art to the general public.

Deborah

Around here, it's *very* hard to get a good number of attendees at a workshop showcase. One of the ways to boost attendance is to have student troupes perform - because as has been discussed here before, it's the students that bring friends and family out in droves to these events. It can also be a way to drive workshop attendance, if you are requiring performers to take one of the workshops in order to be on stage.

I don't like to see too many student performers (troupe or soloists) in a workshop show, but I do enjoy watching dancers of all levels, and don't mind if they are scattered about through the program. I actually like it when a pro dancer has her students included in the show (though not the marathon you described, Shira!), because the audience can get a sense of the teaching side of the pro performer through watching her students perform.

All of that said, I do expect the students who perform at a workshop showcase to be polished, rehearsed and well presented. "Recital" to me means that everyone gets to perform, no matter how prepared they are. Even if they are students, anyone appearing in a workshop showcase should be able to present the dance in a way that is respectful to the guest instructor.

Shira,
You have hit upon something that I believe is a HUGE issue. I feel very strongly that students should be offered performance opportunities appropriate to their skill levels and that event organizers should be very clear, in marketing shows to the GP, whether the show features student or pro-level performers. I feel that it does a huge disservice to the dance when the GP attends something like a workshop show and sees primarily beginner student performers (it is also unfair to the students themselves, because they are sort of "thrown to the wolves" before they are ready).

In my case, my Level 2 students (I guess you could call them "advanced beginners" or "beginner intermediates") are offered opportunities at haflas and my annual recital. My Level 3 students ("advanced intermediates"? "beginner advanced"?) are offered opportunities at haflas, my annual recital, a handful of local festival and charity events that I do each year, and perhaps a workshop show. Occasionally I have incorporated advanced students into bookings for parties and the like...but there are very few students who I would send off to these types of gigs on their own; I'm generally there, so it works as a kind of apprenticeship.

I really feel that workshop shows should feature professional dancers and advanced students. I do NOT think that a workshop show is the place for a beginner student to bust out her first solo. It's not fair to that student, and it's not fair to the audience. I guess I just don't subscribe to the "everybody gets to dance!" school of workshop show organization... because honestly, even if the attendees are just dancers and family and friends of dancers, we often seem to forget that the latter group of people are part of the proverbial GP as well.

On the other hand, I believe that students are capable of putting on outstanding student showcases/recitals that the GP can enjoy if teachers would just be willing to set the bar high and let students know that they CAN achieve more than just bopping around for 5 minutes to the pop song du jour. My recital is open to the general public (and most of the audience is GP) - it's hosted by the comm. college where I teach, so I HAVE to open it up - so I am very concerned with 1. being very clear that it is a STUDENT RECITAL, but nevertheless 2. putting on a high-quality, polished show. I get frustrated with the mentality that "It's JUST a student show" because this becomes a cop-out for teachers either being too passive or too lazy to adequately prep their students before they put them out on a stage in front of God and everyone.

It has taken me an eternity to organize my thoughts here so I am sure by the time I hit "post" that others will have already made a lot of these points...

Shira, thanks for bringing this topic here to Bhuz. It's one that I have found very helpful.

I feel I have been battling these issues for ages. My own event has undergone huge shifts in the demographic of our attendees--going from mostly local to mostly visiting. And balancing the needs of the locals and the needs of the travellers has been a huge consideration.

Originally when I started the event, I only had a "hafla" (pretty much anyone could dance). Then my event grew and I started bringing on more "staff" members to assist me in managing the endless number of tasks. In 2007 we decided to add a professional "show" (invite only--only professionals & high level hobbyists). For good measure, the price for the show was more than the hafla. We did this to reflect the difference in the "quality" of what was being presented. The feedback we received in our post-event survey indicated that the preference really was for the "show"...regardless of price. People really responded to seeing a quality show.

So in 2008 we opted for 2 shows instead of the show/hafla format. We still created 2 very different "flavors" by keeping our Friday show a more formal experience in an actual theater, and the Saturday show being in the convention center following a cocktail party.

However, as an organizer, I can also appreciate the dilemma of meeting the needs of the community. The culture of the belly dance community tends to allow amateurs and students ample access to the stage. Additionally, there are many students and troupes that attend events specifically because they can perform, regardless of their qualifications.

So to that end, we are adding a festival to our event next year, but it will be during the day... and our evening shows will continue to be more "exclusive".

And yes, for whatever it's worth, it is blasted hard to walk that line! I've managed to inadvertently offend numerous people. I've even been told that I am limiting people's creativity due to some of the standards we are choosing to impose. Not everyone is going to be happy with our choices. Seriously, balancing the needs of so many people is a delicate balance...and when you are doing a decent job of it...you might even get accused of being too political. You need to have a tough skin to do all this stuff.

I do think we have done a couple of things "right" that I don't mind sharing.

Specifically, we didn't leave the choice of who was "in" and who was "out" to only one person. We had a "selection committee" that sat down and watched all the youtube/dvd submissions and hashed out what we wanted our line ups to look like. The people who were on the committee all came from a variety of backgrounds so that many perspectives would be represented.

The other thing I think we did "right" was that we created a vision first. We wanted 2 distinct shows with 2 distinct flavors, and we wanted to make sure we were embracing the spectrum of the belly dance umbrella. Our event supports "tribal" and "oriental" (and nearly everything in between) and we wanted to make sure our shows reflected that. We wanted quality performances as well as diversity amongst the performers. And we wanted things to be family friendly. That's our vision. It may not be the vision of every event out there...but at least we've had the conversations. So we were all clear about what we wanted to accomplish.

As far as price, we opted for a $25 ticket price so we could afford to compensate most of the professional performers. We are proud to say that everyone in our show does get compensated in some way. We have a range of things we give to our artists, including classes or workshops, gift cards, or cash. $25 may seem "high" to some, but we are also in Las Vegas and the theater and venue costs are substantial.

Ok...I didn't mean for this to get so long. I am looking forward to hearing more about what other people do regarding these issues in our community.

Perfect example right here: we had our annual school show split midyear, because we hosted an international teacher's workshops, so we gave a show featuring her, some out of town dancers and dancers/teachers from other schools, and our more experienced students and dance friends. Our usual lower level classes had a show of their own with performances from teachers etc. Well, the first, workshop show, almost tanked because we could not sell enough tickets, and the price was higher than usual. It is the babies that put bums on seats. We were surprised, we thought lower level students would want to come and watch, but quite a lot didn't - we just didn't think it through.

Also, is it possible that what you consider "amateur" *is* professional in that area?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Perfect example right here: we had our annual school show split midyear, because we hosted an international teacher's workshops, so we gave a show featuring her, some out of town dancers and dancers/teachers from other schools, and our more experienced students and dance friends. Our usual lower level classes had a show of their own with performances from teachers etc. Well, the first, workshop show, almost tanked because we could not sell enough tickets, and the price was higher than usual. It is the babies that put bums on seats. We were surprised, we thought lower level students would want to come and watch, but quite a lot didn't - we just didn't think it through.

Also, is it possible that what you consider "amateur" *is* professional in that area?

This doesn't surprise me, because I see this sort of situation in my town too, but it is so disheartening. It seems like a lot of students only come to shows if they're dancing in them.

Ooo I want to reply to this one, but it may have to wait a while until I have the time to do so (unless Sedonia or someone else beats me to the points I'd make).

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

This doesn't surprise me, because I see this sort of situation in my town too, but it is so disheartening. It seems like a lot of students only come to shows if they're dancing in them.

Yes. Really saddens me.

But I have to remind myself that most people "take up" BD for fun, and a few might even stay for a couple of levels, but then they're gone. There simply isn't a real interest in the dance itself.

And that's just how it is.

<shrug>

Kinda hard to swallow when this BD thing is an absolute passion for you.

Deborah

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Shira,
You have hit upon something that I believe is a HUGE issue. I feel very strongly that students should be offered performance opportunities appropriate to their skill levels and that event organizers should be very clear, in marketing shows to the GP, whether the show features student or pro-level performers. I feel that it does a huge disservice to the dance when the GP attends something like a workshop show and sees primarily beginner student performers . . .

. . . I believe that students are capable of putting on outstanding student showcases/recitals that the GP can enjoy if teachers would just be willing to set the bar high and let students know that they CAN achieve more than just bopping around for 5 minutes to the pop song du jour. My recital is open to the general public (and most of the audience is GP) - it's hosted by the comm. college where I teach, so I HAVE to open it up - so I am very concerned with 1. being very clear that it is a STUDENT RECITAL, but nevertheless 2. putting on a high-quality, polished show. I get frustrated with the mentality that "It's JUST a student show" because this becomes a cop-out for teachers either being too passive or too lazy to adequately prep their students before they put them out on a stage in front of God and everyone.

I think it's extremely important to prepare students of any level to bring the best of themselves to any show, be it a hafla, workshop show or open-to-the-public student recital at the community college; I find it unconscionable that instructors at the college level would bring anything less to a recital!

I think it also behooves the organizers of this type of event to include, if at all possible, a fine example of professional-level dancing by a guest artist or group for each genre presented. I believe that by including high-grade dancing at a recital, most importantly one that is open to the GP (such as one at a comm coll), the audience will see just what to expect from a well-trained dancer in that discipline.

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

I think it's extremely important to prepare students of any level to bring the best of themselves to any show, be it a hafla, workshop show or open-to-the-public student recital at the community college; I find it unconscionable that instructors at the college level would bring anything less to a recital!

I think it also behooves the organizers of this type of event to include, if at all possible, a fine example of professional-level dancing by a guest artist or group for each genre presented. I believe that by including high-grade dancing at a recital, most importantly one that is open to the GP (such as one at a comm coll), the audience will see just what to expect from a well-trained dancer in that discipline.

Deborah

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. I always put myself in my student shows...not to showcase my own awesomeness, mind you , but to mix in a pro-level performance so that both the GP and current/potential students understand that there is a challenging path to follow if you wish to become a pro-level performer. Lately I have a few local pros doing classes and private lessons with me, and I have invited them to perform in my programs in order to add more representation of pro-level dance, while still keeping the program a showcase of my own student performers.

There is a hula teacher who teaches at the same comm. college and she puts on a very nice recital of her own. Between the two of us, I hope we're doing a lot to introduce the public to these dance forms, while also showing students the great things they are capable of.

Nisaa

Well, this is also related to the "long show" thread.
A local club has a policy of "everybody who passes the proficiency test" performing. That was fine when they had 25 members split into three classes... but now they have 100 members! And the beginner choreo is very very beginner. I don't think they should be putting these ultra-beginners in the same show as the visiting pros. It makes the show long and the level of the show very uneven.

It's not like it's a hafla. Haflas can be designed to give beginners a chance to show their stuff (that's how ours is done). But when you have a massive production that starts to be 60% student recital, it's a bit dull for the average spectator!

It seems like a lot of students only come to shows if they're dancing in them.

True, and I have to say I can be guilty of this myself, though I try to go to shows given by other dance schools in my town, and it helps with them that they usually only have *one* a year.

But there are issues like money involved too. Times are tough, as everyone is sick of hearing, and the way people spend their dance dollar is changing. What would someone actually spend on a local show? The ticket price, transport there and back, perhaps food for the supper, babysitting for the evening, perhaps something to drink etc etc... for much the same price, I could buy a DVD and watch it over and over. Especially once there start to be many shows to see. I pick and choose what I go to because I am just not drowning in dough, and if I spend money on dance it needs to be money that benefits me/my students. So, for example, I went to a tribal fusion show here the first time they gave it but I've never been since, because it's expensive for me to get there and back, there's a door charge, I can see what they do at school events anyway and frankly it's just not my cup of tea. If I had a lot of money I might have gone once or twice more, but I don't.

As long as there's truth in marketing, I think all solutions can be acceptable.

My student recital is called a 'student recital.' It is promoted to the GP, but as a student recital, so it's very clear they shouldn't expect pro dancing. Mostly the only people outside family and friends who come are those who've been thinking of taking a class. I make a point of clearly spelling out in the program what level the groups are, and whether the soloists are pros, teachers, first timers, etc. so there's context. I also invite guest soloists to be certain that the audience gets to see some pro dancing.

Workshop shows around here are rarely marketed to the GP, as far as I can tell.

But I'd be pissed if I spent $20 plus a hotel night to watch the sponsor's students. I can understand needing them to fill seats, though. The obvious solution is to clearly sell the show as 'Studio XYZ student recital, featuring special guest [workshop teacher] and other guest dancers from around the region' and then price the thing halfway between a recital and a pro show.

I think the word 'hafla' is meaningless outside the bellydance community (and they vary from location to location anyway) so it's not usable in promoting to the GP. Student recital if it's a stage show, studio party and student showcase if it's more casual.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

As long as there's truth in marketing, I think all solutions can be acceptable.

My student recital is called a 'student recital.' It is promoted to the GP, but as a student recital, so it's very clear they shouldn't expect pro dancing. Mostly the only people outside family and friends who come are those who've been thinking of taking a class. I make a point of clearly spelling out in the program what level the groups are, and whether the soloists are pros, teachers, first timers, etc. so there's context. I also invite guest soloists to be certain that the audience gets to see some pro dancing.

Workshop shows around here are rarely marketed to the GP, as far as I can tell.

But I'd be pissed if I spent $20 plus a hotel night to watch the sponsor's students. I can understand needing them to fill seats, though. The obvious solution is to clearly sell the show as 'Studio XYZ student recital, featuring special guest [workshop teacher] and other guest dancers from around the region' and then price the thing halfway between a recital and a pro show.

I think the word 'hafla' is meaningless outside the bellydance community (and they vary from location to location anyway) so it's not usable in promoting to the GP. Student recital if it's a stage show, studio party and student showcase if it's more casual.

Lauren, will you just sign my name along with yours on all your posts? It'll sure save me alot of time!

Deborah

I belong to a semi-professional troupe (1 or 2 paid gigs a year, but mostly community events or shows like Rakassah), and we put on a little stage show once a year. It used to be our annual hafla, but it grew in scope when we lost the free space where we used to host it. So, we now rent a hall with a little stage, have professional sound, real stage lights, programs, etc. All of our performers are either instructors or skilled hobbyists. Most of us are over age 40 and are not involved with the professional/restaurant scene in the Bay Area. We "market" (OK, we stick up posters around town and email our friends) our show to the GP, and charge $10 a ticket. I think it's a pretty good deal for live entertainment here in sleepy El Cerrito? We're lucky if we break even, usually the funds from whatever paid appearances we've had make up the shortfall. I'm not sure the local market would bear a higher ticket price than $10.

I think every workshop show I've seen has involved both pro and amateur dancers of all levels. For a $10 ticket, I'm pleased with a pleasant night out watching a bunch of new dancers. For a $25+ dollar ticket, though, I'd expect a well-run, all pro show with at least one big name on the program.

Hmm, I've seen shows like the one Shira is talking about. The problem is, unless you live in a belly dance city like LA, NYC, or Las Vegas, and there's only one visiting big name dancer, I think you're going to have to let some amateurs in to fill a 1 1/2 to 2 hour show. Also, the promoter probably has to charge $20 or so to offset the cost of sponsoring the workshop. I guess I just consider part of the price of supporting the dance scene.

Originally Posted by Zamira

Hmm, I've seen shows like the one Shira is talking about. The problem is, unless you live in a belly dance city like LA, NYC, or Las Vegas, and there's only one visiting big name dancer, I think you're going to have to let some amateurs in to fill a 1 1/2 to 2 hour show. Also, the promoter probably has to charge $20 or so to offset the cost of sponsoring the workshop. I guess I just consider part of the price of supporting the dance scene.

We belly dancers are such funny creatures.

* When we're baby bellies we either spend hundreds of $$ on a costume 'way beyond the scope of our current abilities OR we think a request from Teacher for a tank top, yoga pants and a coin hip wrap is too much to ask for the area hafla. Hmmmm . . . sometimes these opposites reside in the same person! .w.:

* We'll spend nearly $100 a month on exotic coffee confections, but handing over a 20-dollar bill to pay for an evening of good-quality BD a few times a year is considered an exorbitant expense. ..c::

You get the idea.

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

The GP always deserves the best we have to offer. Everyone starts somewhere on his/her path to BD discovery, and that start is at the beginning. As our training increases and our gifts unfold, we then earn the right to represent our chosen art to the general public.

Deborah

I agree that the general public deserves the best we have to offer. And like some of you pointed out, that depends on your community. I agree also that how you market an event needs to be a true representation of the performances one should expect to see. Here in my town there was a professional belly dance show that was advertised to the general public. Some of the professionals in the show commented on the fact that a lot of the other talent was not up to professional standards, and couldn't believe the general public paid what it did to see the show. For those of us who care about the integrity of this art form this is a big issue. We want our art form to be expressed and portrayed in the most authentic and professional way to the general public to gain respect for what we do. I feel that with a show like this you should have a commitee and screen performance clips and have standards and guidelines for the talent to be represented in the show; which these organizers clearly did not do. They just put themselves and who else they knew in it without doing their research. As far as workshop shows, I have been to many and do enjoy and expect to see a range of talent. But definitely the level of talent in any show depends on many things, and that is fine as long as the sponsors are honest about it when promoting it.

Originally Posted by bellydancewear

I agree that the general public deserves the best we have to offer. And like some of you pointed out, that depends on your community. I agree also that how you market an event needs to be a true representation of the performances one should expect to see. Here in my town there was a professional belly dance show that was advertised to the general public. Some of the professionals in the show commented on the fact that a lot of the other talent was not up to professional standards, and couldn't believe the general public paid what it did to see the show. For those of us who care about the integrity of this art form this is a big issue. We want our art form to be expressed and portrayed in the most authentic and professional way to the general public to gain respect for what we do. I feel that with a show like this you should have a commitee and screen performance clips and have standards and guidelines for the talent to be represented in the show; which these organizers clearly did not do. They just put themselves and who else they knew in it without doing their research. As far as workshop shows, I have been to many and do enjoy and expect to see a range of talent. But definitely the level of talent in any show depends on many things, and that is fine as long as the sponsors are honest about it when promoting it.

I get around this getting less-than-expected-quality problem by making my pro events invitation-only. I do the inviting and I only invite performers with whose work I am very familiar.

No one to blame but me if the show's not up to snuff. Kinda scary, but it seems to have worked so far.

Deborah

There are certain barriers to putting on a truly professional show (going a little outside the scope of the OP, sorry Shira).

It would be lovely to make everyone audition their dance, to rehearse together with tech staff repeatedly in order to get lighting cues just right, etc. etc.

But unless you're actually going to PAY the dancers a full rate that would cover their rehearsal time for the show, etc. you can only ask so much of them -- and the true pros often have several hundred dollars worth of gigs lined up on a Friday/Saturday night, so they'll NEVER be the ones participating in your stage show if you can't afford to pay them.

A real, professional dance show can't usually pay their expenses out of door receipts alone. There are usually all sorts of grants and corporate sponsors who give thousands (or tens of thousands!) of dollars to make it happen. That money is not generally available in our art form. (BDSS did have some sponsorships, I don't know of any others).

Compared to the 'real' dance performances that are put on in my area, my shows will always look like homegrown affairs. But I do my best!

Oh Lauren! I agree with all of that. I would love to produce a truly professional show as you described, but again...it's damn near impossible without much more funding. Ticket sales only go so far.

A workshop I took in 2007 had nice compromise: two shows. There was about 45 minutes of performance time that was open to anybody who took the workshop, followed by a show with the instructor and professional dancers who had been specifically invited to perform. They were back-to-back (with a short break), but billed as two different events in the workshop materials.

It worked really well. Some people came for the early show, some waited for the pro-only show, and everybody knew exactly what they were getting.

It would be helpful to have a flyer or something indicating who is dancing and maybe some background. I prefer to pay more to watch a show with pro dancers too and am disappointed when it's more of a recital.

but as Zumarrad perfectly pointed out the students put bums in seats:)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

There are certain barriers to putting on a truly professional show (going a little outside the scope of the OP, sorry Shira).

It would be lovely to make everyone audition their dance, to rehearse together with tech staff repeatedly in order to get lighting cues just right, etc. etc.

But unless you're actually going to PAY the dancers a full rate that would cover their rehearsal time for the show, etc. you can only ask so much of them -- and the true pros often have several hundred dollars worth of gigs lined up on a Friday/Saturday night, so they'll NEVER be the ones participating in your stage show if you can't afford to pay them.

A real, professional dance show can't usually pay their expenses out of door receipts alone. There are usually all sorts of grants and corporate sponsors who give thousands (or tens of thousands!) of dollars to make it happen. That money is not generally available in our art form. (BDSS did have some sponsorships, I don't know of any others).

Compared to the 'real' dance performances that are put on in my area, my shows will always look like homegrown affairs. But I do my best!

I know just what you mean, Lauren, and perhaps I should modify the thoughts in my posts above to clarify.

So far, my "pro shows" have been shows that feature pro-level only performers. They're like a showcase at a restaurant/club, only no "student level" performances; therefore, I, too, have yet to produce what one would call a "real" dance concert with the cued lighting and all that good stuff -- heck, I've never even had a curtain to pull!

Deborah