Thread: Can we talk about show length?

Recently, someone told me about an event she attended that involved a 3 1/2 hour show.

That makes me wonder, WHAT WAS THE ORGANIZER THINKING?

Now, it's one thing to have a festival (such as Rakkasah) where people come and go throughout the day, vendors are in the room, and audience members aren't trapped in their seats. I think these are fine.

But I remember enduring some painfully long "dancer showcases" back when I lived in California that made me want to run screaming into the night. It doesn't matter how stellar the perfomers are, a 3 1/2-hour show is just too long! And it's not fair to the dancers who are scheduled at the end of the show - I remember being at some shows waiting to watch one of my friends dance, watching the audience start to shrink after the first two hours, and by the time my poor friends came on at midnight, there were only about 5 people left.

I believe that a show should not exceed 2 hours, and that 2-hour span should allow time for a 15-minute break halfway through. In other words, no more than 1 hour 45 minutes of dancing. And I actually prefer shows that end after 90 minutes (ie, 75 minutes of dancing with a 15-minute break). This is fair to audience members, the dancers who perform at the end, and the poor people who have to do the cleanup after it's over.

Comments? Disagreements?

One of my teachers out here used to say "the mind can only absorb what the ass can endure". I think that 2 hours is pushing it. But then again, I have a serious case of ADD and making me sit through a whole movie is painful. Ask my friends. I either fidget until someone elbows me half to death or I fall asleep. ,s::

I remember the first ACN competition that went on for something like 4 hours and being delirious by the end and laughing myself into a fit that I couldn't stop.

For the love of all that is good and holy, limit your show!!!! 2 hours maximum!!!

Maybe it's because some organizers can't say NO?
They put too many people in the show and allow them to dance longer than the agreed limit - just to be nice.

Our studio show has gone down from 8 minutes to 5 minutes per dance number.
We never had a show that went longer than 2 hours, rather 90 minutes.
And the audience was happy with that! I never heard anybody complain that there was not enough dancing...

MEISSOUN

I'm in TOTAL agreement. I think two hours is getting to be on the long side. 90 or 105 minutes is a good time, with a break inbetween. I don't care who's dancing!

It helps a lot if alcohol is served. ..g.:

Originally Posted by Taj

It helps a lot if alcohol is served. ..g.:

I dunno...for me, I just end up drunk and disgruntled, not a good combo...

I agree with Shira, 90-120 minutes is ideal. Longer than that, everybody starts blending together. And it sucks if you are one of the people in the second half of one of those marathon shows...

Yep - anymore than 2hrs and your audience will be climbing the walls!

Do you think that it would help the overall show length if performers are only allotted a certain amount of time i.e. capping a solo performance (unless they are the "star") at around 5 min.? There are often times that I feel that some dances are too long…is that possible, do organizers do that already and just over book a show?

also on a side note...what do you feel is a good solo time? i've always heard around 6 minutes... :)

cheers!!!

I had the misfortune to be in a 4hr show once. I was at the end of the second half. Most of the audience had left by that point, as it was almost midnight on a week day...and the other half were so hammered they probably didn't even remember being there.

What was the organizer thinking? She wasn't. (she is a mentor and friend) and a few weeks after, she couldn't believe what she had done. Looking back on it now we laugh, but you better believe that will never happen again. She got so excited about choreographing and rehearsing and designing the show and all the incredible stuff that was going into it, she neglected to think about the time. Brain fart. Big one.

The standard around here is 3-4 mins for a solo and 5-6 mins for a group piece. I think more than 6 mins for a solo piece is too long, unless you are headlining the show. I like the concept of "leave them wanting more".

I agree with what everyone has mentioned already. No more than 2 hours and limited amount of time per performance. 3-4 mins for a solo and 5-6 mins for a group piece is fabulous.

There is an annual showcase here (going on its 24th year, I believe) that never, ever comes in under 3 hours. Usually, it's more like 3.5 hours. And yes, it's painful to sit through, even though some of the dancing is awesome.

Two hours (or a bit less) with a brief intermission is much more enjoyable for the audience, IMO.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

It doesn't matter how stellar the perfomers are, a 3 1/2-hour show is just too long!

I'd agree in the general case; when I performed regularly in shows, I'd keep under 3-4 minutes in part because of that very point!

However, there are exceptions. And my experience is that shows that have the qualities can go over a coupe of hours:

* Must do more than present dance after dance,
* Must also change up style and presentation of show,
* Must give ample time for intermissions and breaks, and
* Must be of the highest quality.

And even with all that, it's a hard slug to making a 3+ hour dance epic work. The times it has, I've been absolutely entranced, and have had a number of styles, and changes in presentation -- much like a Opera, actually. But your stagecraft has to be top-notch, esp. if it's going to be for General Audiences.

When we talk about show length, are we including time to get the show actually started? I know how hard it is getting everything ready before a show, plus getting the audience settled, but when you count time to arrive at the venue, and the 15-20 minutes late that the show inevitably starts, the audience may have been sitting for an hour before seeing any actual dancing!
Nikki

I've attended multiple after-the-workshop evening shows that have stretched to four hours. They are exhausting.

I always think of these shows as like eating cheesecake ... a slice of it is divine, but you can't really eat the whole thing at once -- or if you do, you aren't enjoying it by the end.

Originally Posted by nisreenbrooklyn

i always think of these shows as like eating cheesecake ... A slice of it is divine, but you can't really eat the whole thing at once -- or if you do, you aren't enjoying it by the end.

you said it!!

Yes, 2 hours max is good. And also, if you can mix it up so that is it not just one cabaret dancer after another.... maybe one person does veil, the next cane, a drum solo, an egyptian opening song... etc. That always keeps the audiences attention.

I'd agree that around 2 hours should be the max. I've noticed a recent trend for shows/halfas/whatever to get very long indeed but even though I generally have excellent concentration skills, I usually find that I've wilted under the table or am busily engaged in chewing my own leg off at around the 2 hour mark.

I think a lot of show organisers are now under a lot of pressure to include every single person who expresses and interest in dancing in the show.

I also think that some shows/haflas get prolonged by long pauses to shop. Whereas I can understand the reasons for this entirely (and I don't think its going to go away), I'm not convinces that doing this is really that helpful in terms of breaking the show up or creating intervals.

I'm still a beginning dancer and much though I enjoy seeing other dancers, I think the show shouldn't be longer than 2 hours. It's hard to focus on the later dancers and give them the attention they deserve. If a workshop has 3 and 1/2 hours worth of show, I think it should be split over two days or afternoon and evening.

Edna

I am in agreement with everyone else. I have been to 3+ hour shows and after a while, your brain just gets foggy and you stop enjoying each dancer. I have also seen a lot of attendees leave when it drags on too long. It stinks for both the attendees and the performers.

I'd also like to add that talking or announcing between performers really adds a lot of time to the show and is often not necessary. I've been to a few shows which could have been a lot shorter and sweeter without all that talking. Especially when they're just reading what is already written in the program.......

Originally Posted by laura 2

There is an annual showcase here (going on its 24th year, I believe) that never, ever comes in under 3 hours. Usually, it's more like 3.5 hours. And yes, it's painful to sit through, even though some of the dancing is awesome.

Two hours (or a bit less) with a brief intermission is much more enjoyable for the audience, IMO.

Amen sister friend! ..l;,

Originally Posted by khadiya

I think a lot of show organisers are now under a lot of pressure to include every single person who expresses and interest in dancing in the show.

I think you nailed it. I've been to a lot of workshops/shows where the show part seemed to go on forever.
I just hosted the very first workshop/show for my area that I know of. When I started planning for the show I knew I wanted no more than two hours including a ten minute intermission, preferably closer to an hour and a half but I was willing to go as long as two hours. I had to turn away a couple of dancers who didn't register for the workshop or talk to me about wanting to be in the show until after I had a full show lineup. Yes I have one of them bad mouthing me to everyone and anyone who will listen (which to be honest from her this is nothing new) over it. When I hear the comments via other people or I'm asked by those she's whined to I tell them the same thing I told her "Unfortunately when she talked to me it was too late since the show slots had been full for a few weeks at that point." I've taken some flack for it but I stood my ground on how many spaces I had for performances and those that got on the list first got to perform, those that waited until a couple of weeks before were out of luck. It's hard to turn away dancers who want to perform but sometimes you have to be the "bad guy" and do so if you want to keep your show a reasonable length.

I think two hours is about as long as you want, and I also think it's a good idea to have an intermission of 20 minutes. People need the toilet, they need to stretch their legs and have a chat.

Lengths can always be problematic, because on the one hand, three to five minutes is good and you can pack the performances in that way. On the other, longer pieces are increasingly rare in belly dance shows and by leaving them out, we're actually penalizing people who dance to oriental music (hard to get a piece that's not six minutes or longer) and giving a false impression of what belly dance is (used to be?) all about. For instance, I know that there are students who believe that oriental dance is choreographed and tribal is improvised. Because that's what they see and that's what they are told by the MC. An oriental soloist doesn't usually have it announced that she is improvising, especially not a really good one. Classes and groups don't usually do improv because it is an unholy mess. But when tribal groups dance, the teacher makes a big deal out of telling everyone that they are doing IMPROV!!! That gives the impression to those who don't know much about BD that only tribal is improvised. That's just *one* of the things that occur.

Similarly I can understand why people have dances introduced, because an audience of new dancers or family members might have not the slightest idea of what they're seeing. Why is that lady dancing in a dress with a big black veil thingy? Why are those ladies wearing sari-looking things with pots on their heads? Why is that lady there wearing jazz pants with a skirt tucked into the hips and tattoos on her face? Round these parts programmes are very short keepsakes - they have the name of the item, the music, and the performer name and not much else. But I agree, introductions can be toooo long, which is why I try to keep mine short. Zumarrad dances to X in X style, please welcome her. Other people like to give long long long introductions telling the audience all about the style, why it is so great, what you should look out for the dancers doing, how great they all are, etc etc. Sometimes that rankles because *you* thought about brevity and *they* thought about making their item seem more important and special than any other. So sometimes I wonder if long intros are about competition, too.

I'm also in favour of something posted on the other show thread, making the second half shorter than the first.

If you have a band your whole 5 minutes and 6 minutes is out the window. I do not have stop watch hanging on my mic stand. Might be a little longer or shorter depends on song or songs requested. One show I went to with a band was nice. The drummer just said the dancers name and they they started playing. The show to me didnt seem long at all.

Originally Posted by zahena

One of my teachers out here used to say "the mind can only absorb what the ass can endure". I think that 2 hours is pushing it. But then again, I have a serious case of ADD and making me sit through a whole movie is painful. Ask my friends. I either fidget until someone elbows me half to death or I fall asleep. ,s::

I remember the first ACN competition that went on for something like 4 hours and being delirious by the end and laughing myself into a fit that I couldn't stop.

For the love of all that is good and holy, limit your show!!!! 2 hours maximum!!!

Speaking from a woman who fell asleep during "Baby Mama" last night and then had to sit through TWO two-hour meetings today, I concur. I can only sit for so long. A show that clocks in at 3+ hours is just not fun any more.

I generally impose a 5 minute limit on solos. I don't care who you are, most people will be ready for something new after 3 minutes. (This is the GP I'm talking about, but also a lot of dancers).
I can't tell you how many people have told me they were bored to death with dancer so-and-so who felt the need to grace the stage for 8 minutes. I'd rather have the audience leave the show unable to remember the many outstanding numbers than be able to tell you how many sequins the 8 minute dancer had on her costume.
Long songs can be shortened, or new songs selected.


I'm hosting a show next month that will have 3 acts because I am having problems coordinating the costume changes. The intermissions will be 10 minutes. The total show time will be less than 2 hours.
I threw out my 5 minute rule because of my logistic problems, but some of that is with combining troupe numbers, so even though the costumes and dancers are the same, at least the song and style will be different.

I have a 7 minute limit at our haflas knowing that many of the dancers who perform at it will pick songs more at the 5 minute mark, because there are fewer dancers in my town who do full orientales. But I'm glad I did so... because at the last hafla one of the best young pros in our area got up and did one of the long numbers off one of the Wash ya Wash albums and blew everybody away. I would have been sad to miss that.

But I also make the dancers tell me when they sign up what they plan to dance to. Not everybody answers right away, but I can get an idea how many 7-minuters there will be and reduce the number of performance slots accordingly.

It is good to have a firm limit, though... I once had a local pro do her whole 20-minute restaurant set. Oops.

I think Rakkasah and Cairo Carnival have a rule of 7 mins for soloists / duets and 10 for troupes? That seems to work as long as the bands don't run long! (had this happen!)

Show length, in general, is best at around 2 hours. If you look at most movies today, they run between 1.5 and 2.25 hours. This has definitely influenced our ability to sit through anything longer. (Remember that the average play / concert used to be more than 3 hours!)

I agree with Zum about the 5 mins time slot being too short. I love Oriental sets and 5 mins just does not allow enough time!

{{{HUGS}}}

Festivals are a different ball of wax from *shows* IMO so the requirements can be different.

Like Tahiradancers posted, at festivals such as Cairo Caravan (formerly Cairo Carnivale), SAMEDA Faire, my own Market at the Casbah, etc, (all in California) the maximum time alloted for soloists is 6-7 minutes; group time slots can be quite a bit longer, but I limit them at Market at the Casbah to 9 minutes. Most dance festivals are all-day affairs, so keeping each set relatively short is a good thing.

Then again, many shows are more like festivals in that the only "qualifier" is that a person must have paid for the workshop or something similar. Although some performers might be invited guests, the majority are folks who simply "sign up." Having a time limit helps Nancy Newbie avoid trying to dance for 10 minutes when three minutes would be just fine.

Then there are *show* shows where all performances are invitation-only, might even be paid, etc. Something like this would have ticket prices that reflect the all-pro nature of the show.

However, whether it's a workshop show or a *show* show, length needs to be considered. Shows should be two hours maximum (including a 15-20 minute intermission) and start and end on time.

Deborah