Thread: Reflecting on "So You Think You Can Dance"

The season of So You Think You Can Dance that recently ended didn't show any belly dancing once again this year. I remember a season or two ago the judges made some comment after the New York auditions about having no idea there were so many belly dancers out there.

But I wondered, as I watched the show over the course of the recently-ended season, what would happen if a high-quality belly dancer were to do something emotional/expressive like a sinuous tribal fusion taqsim or Egyptian-style dance to Oum Kalthoum music for the auditions? But what if, instead of wearing the archetypical belly dance costume of bra/belt/skirt set, the performer were to wear something more similar to what female dancers of other styles wear? Ie, a nice tank top or crop top with shorts, or maybe yoga pants? In other words, what if they made it difficult for the judges to immediately recognize it as belly dance and mentally dismiss it as being "not what we're looking for"?

Obviously, my hypothetical performer would still need to be top-quality talent with excellent dance technique and stage presence. But let's assume she is. Do you think she'd get some air time? Do you think they'd pass her through to the next phase of the auditions?

I have only watched the show a few times, but what a great idea! I guess it would really depend on the dancer; if she was amazing, and did not immediately "look like" a belly dancer, I think she could possibly get past the first phase.

I think that someone like Rachel Brice would probably have a better chance because her style of tribal fusion is modern and edgy and in my mind, not the public's idea of what belly dance is.

That would be a brilliant experiment. I think so often (GP) people can't get past the costume, and don't really look at the dance movement. I'd hate to think that dance professionals fall into the same trap, but they probably do.

EDIT: Wish I had the dance skills to try this myself!

I think it would work, but she also would need to be great in anouther style like ballet

One of the problems with doing something slow and gooey, like a taqsim or a baladi progression is the time limit on the first audition. I think you only have a 30 second limit, and you really need to wow the judges in that time frame. A lot of "good" BD, especially Egyptian style, depends on building energy and drawing the audience in slowly and craftily. You just can't put that sort of thing across in 30 seconds or less.

I think that any Belly Dancer who wanted to make it to Vegas would have to put together an audition that would showcase the type of physical strength and strong dance technique (posture, line, foot positions) that could translate to the other forms of dance they'll be expected to master. Since the judges seem to appreciate the skill needed for hip hop pop n' lockers, if I were going to audition, I'd probably do a drum solo.

Originally Posted by laura 2

One of the problems with doing something slow and gooey, like a taqsim or a baladi progression is the time limit on the first audition. I think you only have a 30 second limit, and you really need to wow the judges in that time frame. A lot of "good" BD, especially Egyptian style, depends on building energy and drawing the audience in slowly and craftily. You just can't put that sort of thing across in 30 seconds or less.

I think that any Belly Dancer who wanted to make it to Vegas would have to put together an audition that would showcase the type of physical strength and strong dance technique (posture, line, foot positions) that could translate to the other forms of dance they'll be expected to master. Since the judges seem to appreciate the skill needed for hip hop pop n' lockers, if I were going to audition, I'd probably do a drum solo.

Just to build on this -- another "limitation" of belly dance in the context of the show is that it can be very internal and doesn't necessarily require much if any traveling, whereas most of the dancing featured on the show tends to involve bigger, more athletic movements that cover much of the stage. In other words, belly dance and SYTYCD privilege different aesthetics.

Originally Posted by NisreenBrooklyn

Just to build on this -- another "limitation" of belly dance in the context of the show is that it can be very internal and doesn't necessarily require much if any traveling, whereas most of the dancing featured on the show tends to involve bigger, more athletic movements that cover much of the stage. In other words, belly dance and SYTYCD privilege different aesthetics.

*muses* This leads to an interesting thought - do we want to have our cake and eat it too?

How many threads have we had where come people point out that a western dance training is nearly worthless in BD, because the skill set is so different. But yet, we also complain that we'd never have a chance making it on a show where the judges are entirely western-dance trained.

On the one hand, it seems like we want to revel in how completely different and unusual our art form is, but at the same time we want it to be appreciated and rewarded by people who have no clue about the mechanics or difficulty of the form.

I sure would love to see someone give it a shot.

Originally Posted by NisreenBrooklyn

Just to build on this -- another "limitation" of belly dance in the context of the show is that it can be very internal and doesn't necessarily require much if any traveling, whereas most of the dancing featured on the show tends to involve bigger, more athletic movements that cover much of the stage. In other words, belly dance and SYTYCD privilege different aesthetics.

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Word. For the most part we don't do and real leg extension or jumping activity, so something like a grand jeté (split leap) is going to be technically out of range for the BD-only dancer. We also don't "throw ourselves around" and learn about the limits of weight distribution. Hip hop dancers do this more than we do and I can see how they would find something like partnering or a big horizontal barrel turn something fun rather than a challenge.

And notice that a similar type of comparatively small range dance, tap, doesn't cut the mustard on the show either!

I agree with the points others have made about the format of the auditions and the judges' expectations limiting a bellydancer's chance of success as a contestant, but why not show a spectacular dancer or troupe in a guest performance? This last season, especially, they ventured into more "unusual" styles--remember Joshua and Katie's Bollywood routine, and the Russian folk-type dance on the finale with Joshua and Twitch? I would LOVE to see someone like Rachel Brice & the Indigo, or Jillina and the Sahlala Dancers do a guest performance (to use examples of two very polished, professional groups).

Originally Posted by ouroboros

And notice that a similar type of comparatively small range dance, tap, doesn't cut the mustard on the show either!

But they *did* show tap on last season's finale--remember the kids, with Nigel joining in?

I say, it's our turn!

Originally Posted by wv_wahine

I agree with the points others have made about the format of the auditions and the judges' expectations limiting a bellydancer's chance of success as a contestant, but why not show a spectacular dancer or troupe in a guest performance? This last season, especially, they ventured into more "unusual" styles--remember Joshua and Katie's Bollywood routine, and the Russian folk-type dance on the finale with Joshua and Twitch? I would LOVE to see someone like Rachel Brice & the Indigo, or Jillina and the Sahlala Dancers do a guest performance (to use examples of two very polished, professional groups).

Absolutely, I agree that this would be wonderful. And Nigel's comments after the Bollywood and Russian dance numbers that he's delighted to finally see "world dance" be part of the show is very encouraging indeed.

I don't think that any of the limitations we've been discussing about competing on the show would translate to BD being unsuitable as a feature on the show.

Originally Posted by ouroboros

And notice that a similar type of comparatively small range dance, tap, doesn't cut the mustard on the show either!

I'm pretty sure that in the most recent season a couple of tap dancers did make it through to the next round in Vegas.

They certainly made it on the show (ie, we viewers got to see their auditions).

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I'm pretty sure that in the most recent season a couple of tap dancers did make it through to the next round in Vegas.

True, but I recall one girl saying that although she had trained in basic western technique, her strength was tap, so she chose to audition in that style.

Tap dancers (just tap dancers) still don't make it far. ..g.:

I am certain that a belly dancer who had some western training and/or had flexibility, extension, jumping ability and passion but chose to do something visually arresting like tribal fusion for the audition would have a chance to make it to the top 20.

There was one (very) brief clip of a belly dancer in one of the audition montages in one episode. She was wearing a green Neckleman's costume and threw a veil over the camera. (Yes, I have TiFaux:)).

I think it would be difficult for a belly dancer to really compete on this show mainly because so much of it comes down to the partner dancing. Let's face it, the costume would be a huge plus in Nigel's eyes, dirty old man that he is, but when it comes to doing the samba or the tango, a belly dancer is going to be at a huge disadvanatge.

I had hoped that one of the results night performances would be belly dance this year. The had that shirtless Flamenco guy who was all sweaty BEFORE performing; I'd love to see Aziza or Suhaila or even Rachel Brice (yes I'm cabaret and biased) represent an other form of dance. I have hopes for the next season since they did have the Bollywood number that Josh and Katie did and they talked about representing more world dance (wow I just realized how condescending that term is). But the judges on the show don't have any experience in anything beyond Latin Ballroom.

In other words, belly dance and SYTYCD privilege different aesthetics.

This.

It also has to be said that when BDers compete in the "real world" they can get a nasty shock. Some tribal dancers in my town, who do a very cool fusion of their own, entered a TV talent competition and got into the elimination round. They were really upset that they didn't get through when, for example, endless cute kiddies and a dancing dog did. I think what worked against them was that they were a group (although a couple of groups did get passed through) and they were doing something that the judges had *no idea about*. They really did not know what to make of them or how to respond. Fortunately, they never managed to make them look stupid though, which I think is an indicator a) that they did an OK job and b) that they impressed enough that the TV folks didn't try to make them look stupid.

BUT, the other thing is, the judge's criticism was that one of them got her poi tangled, and that their formations were "messy". Now I wasn't there so I did not see. I know they would have rehearsed their butts off for this and so I seriously doubt that they were particularly messy. But what that comment said to me was that they were being assessed against the big kids, and the big kids are ballet/contemporary/jazz/theatre dance, and those standards don't make exceptions for an injury (one of them had her arm in a cast) or tangling props. If you're not 95 percent you're out. The standards are simply not the same and the aesthetics are not the same. What we work really hard at are things that non BDers might not even notice. Whereas the things we don't mind being loose and organic are the very things they don't like and will criticise.

Interesting feedback.

another "limitation" of belly dance in the context of the show is that it can be very internal and doesn't necessarily require much if any traveling

There's a lot of traveling in belly dance - Egyptian dancers do plenty of it. A good dancer should be capable of incorporating some into her dance. As for the internal aesthetic, a good juicy drum solo should be able to address that.

I think it would be difficult for a belly dancer to really compete on this show mainly because so much of it comes down to the partner dancing. When it comes to doing the samba or the tango, a belly dancer is going to be at a huge disadvantage.

Well, EVERY performer in the show is pushed to learn and perform styles that they have never studied. Hiphoppers, like belly dancers, are challenged by the ballroom and contemporary stuff. One of the points of the show is to discover dancers who have the versatility and aptitude to take on something that's new to them and make it look good.

I think belly dancers would have some advantage in hip hop because of our experience with isolations, and I think our comfort with hip movement would help us out in salsa.

It also has to be said that when BDers compete in the "real world" they can get a nasty shock.

Are you saying we set lower standards for our art form, that we praise mediocrity?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Hiphoppers, like belly dancers, are challenged by the ballroom and contemporary stuff. One of the points of the show is to discover dancers who have the versatility and aptitude to take on something that's new to them and make it look good.

I think belly dancers would have some advantage in hip hop because of our experience with isolations, and I think our comfort with hip movement would help us out in salsa.

Are you saying we set lower standards for our art form, that we praise mediocrity?

I totally agree with you, I can do hiphop dancing and latin dancing (I'm hispanic). Belly Dancing has actually helped me with my salsa and meruengue because I've really learned how to use my hips. Especially since I used to just mimic how my parents would dance without exactly realizing what they were doing. So Belly Dancing is a HUGE plus for latin dancing. Belly Dancing has made me a better dancer all around.

Actually, I was ballroom, jazz, hip-hop and ballet dancing long before I started bellydancing. Each style has given me advantages in the other style. That being said, although I LOVE to compete, apparently at 48, I'm too old to even audition! I think I heard the cut-off age is either 28 or 32-not sure.

Maybe there should be a new show - SYTYCBD - So You Think YOU Can Belly Dance? Dancers would have to dance each style of bellydance, e.g., Egyptian, Turkish, Tribal, etc. Hey, the judges could be the BDSS!

In the first season of SYTYCD many NYC auditioned and didn't make it past the second round. One was a tribal fusion dancer who Nigel called an "alien" (probably due to the whole "alien in the belly" thing). Another one is an amazing modern dancer as well has a belly dancer and so she can do those crazy things with her legs. Another dancer told me that they loved her but they "did not know what to do with her". I think it's definitely possible for a well-trained bellydancer to get through the audition process but I really do think that Nigel is not a fan of bellydance. Though I would love to see a supposedly "modern dancer" bust out a bellydance routine during their 30 sec. "dance for their life" solo. From this past season, I could see Kourtni Lind becoming a tribal dancer in the future- she had that look.

Originally Posted by amyraks

In the first season of SYTYCD many NYC auditioned and didn't make it past the second round. One was a tribal fusion dancer who Nigel called an "alien" (probably due to the whole "alien in the belly" thing). Another one is an amazing modern dancer as well has a belly dancer and so she can do those crazy things with her legs. Another dancer told me that they loved her but they "did not know what to do with her".

Amy, just for curiosity's sake - did these dancers wear archetypical belly dance garb - ie, bra & belt sets with skirt/pants? Or did they wear garb that could be associated with a different dance form such as yoga pants and a crop top without a hip scarf?

I think there may actually be something to the costuming thing - I haven't followed the early auditions TOO closely in any season, but the few I did catch with bellydancers they were wearing full bellydancing costuming - and I think it works against them ... not necessarilly as a prejudice against bellydancing as much as it makes them look too dependent on their costuming / props ... and even a little unprofessional in this setting ... if you look around at the other dancers who they would consider the "serious" dancers they are wearing workout / audition clothing ... you don't see the ballerinas breaking out their tutus for example - their dancing speaks for itself and then they are ready to work learning choreography. I think it just highlights the fact that the bellydancers are out of place in this setting and makes it even more difficult for the judges / choreographers to imagine them fitting into the show despite their abilities. I'm not sure exactly what a bellydancer would want out of this show - but if they did want to make it through and have a chance, I'd think they would a) have to be cross trained, b) choose their choreography carefully and c) let their dancing speak for itself and in all other ways come across like any other more "typical" auditioner (not do the in your face I'm a bellydancer look)

...

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

That being said, although I LOVE to compete, apparently at 48, I'm too old to even audition! I think I heard the cut-off age is either 28 or 32-not sure.

I used to be a little pissy about the age limit (in principle, not because I thought I should ever try out!), but now that I've actually watched the show I can kind of understand. The intensity and time frame of the rehearsals seems brutal to me, particularly in later shows where they are learning 2 or even 3 completely different choreographies in less than a week. I would think that you would have to absolutely be in peak physical condition to live through it all.

Originally Posted by portiaangel

if you look around at the other dancers who they would consider the "serious" dancers they are wearing workout / audition clothing ... you don't see the ballerinas breaking out their tutus for example - their dancing speaks for itself and then they are ready to work learning choreography. I'd think they would have to let their dancing speak for itself and in all other ways come across like any other more "typical" auditioner (not do the in your face I'm a bellydancer look)

Exactly! This is a key point, to my mind, as to why we haven't seen belly dancers make it to a level where they get "air time".

Much of the public (including these judges) has a preconception about belly dancing which may or may not be favorable, and may or may not be valid. If these judges have seen a fairly junior-in-skills restaurant dancer who got the job through undercutting rather than through dance skill, they'll have a negative preconception of belly dancing, and it would be extremely difficult for any belly dancer, no matter how fabulous, to cut through that in a 30-second audition.

Also, I think reliance on props for the auditions works against belly dancers. Adeylah mentioned someone with a veil. I remember one year they showed a brief glimpse (only 1-2 seconds) of someone facing the camera in an archetypal belly dance costume holding up Isis wings. Even if the dancer performs well in her audition and exhibits excellent technique with intricate moves, the prop is going to draw the eye to itself and distract the judges from noticing how good her technique is. Y'know, if you can't be an eye-catching dancer without a prop, do you really belong in the competition?

I totally agree with the "no costume" and "no props" points!

It also has to be said that when BDers compete in the "real world" they can get a nasty shock.

reply

Are you saying we set lower standards for our art form, that we praise mediocrity?

NO! But you know how you can sometimes tell a raw newbie BDer at a workshop before any dancing has started? She's never been to a workshop before and looks out of place. If a belly dancer has never been to a professional dance audition before and has no idea about it, she will probably not know about the basic procedures and standards and look like she doesn't know what she's doing. Practice clothes are worn so the auditioners can see the dancer's body. Prop use is completely pointless. Things like quick retention of choreography are critical. The point of an audition is to show off your crazee mad dance skills, your ability to adapt to the needs of the auditioner (ie., the show) and, of course, show a sparkling personality!

Originally Posted by Shira

I remember one year they showed a brief glimpse (only 1-2 seconds) of someone facing the camera in an archetypal belly dance costume holding up Isis wings. Even if the dancer performs well in her audition and exhibits excellent technique with intricate moves, the prop is going to draw the eye to itself and distract the judges from noticing how good her technique is. Y'know, if you can't be an eye-catching dancer without a prop, do you really belong in the competition?

I think there are lots of valid points regarding costuming and use of props, but the irony is that the only time I saw a bellydancer get picked for the show, she auditioned in full BD costume and was using isis wings. It was the first season and she didn't make it past the second episode, but she definitely auditioned in the full get-up. I believe she said her name was Isis and she was a dancer from Florida.

It might be that the judges remember they picked a bellydancer once and she didn't work out and they're reluctant to go for that again. Overall, I agree that in that setting, costumes and props probably work against bellydancers, but in at least one instance the judges went for it.

People are turning up for a general *dance* audition with *ISIS WINGS*?

It's dancing, not prancing about and waving sticks. (No disrespect to Isis wings, people can do beautiful things with them, but they do not usually indicate much about how well a person can really DANCE other than whether or not she has lovely posture.)

hings like quick retention of choreography are critical. The point of an audition is to show off your crazee mad dance skills, your ability to adapt to the needs of the auditioner (ie., the show)

And many very good BDers do not have that ability, especially if they don't choreograph. On the other hand, you want to put those ballet dancers on the spot and make them improv, see what you get. It is a *different kettle of fish*.

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

Maybe there should be a new show - SYTYCBD - So You Think YOU Can Belly Dance? Dancers would have to dance each style of bellydance, e.g., Egyptian, Turkish, Tribal, etc. Hey, the judges could be the BDSS!

It's ironic that you would mention this because I've been bantering around that idea in my head for awhile. I don't mean in terms of creating a show around it, or involving the BDSS, but I have considered adding some sort of SYTYCBD contest at my event. The idea being that the winner would be the most DIVERSE performer instead of the most SPECIALIZED. I haven't figured out how to do it in a way that was logistically possible, but I really like the idea. A series of performances where they have to show how talented they can be representing a variety of styles.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I used to be a little pissy about the age limit (in principle, not because I thought I should ever try out!), but now that I've actually watched the show I can kind of understand. The intensity and time frame of the rehearsals seems brutal to me, particularly in later shows where they are learning 2 or even 3 completely different choreographies in less than a week. I would think that you would have to absolutely be in peak physical condition to live through it all.

And then there was the 40-something mom who rocked the world as a medal-winning olympic swimmer. Good thing they didn't have an age limit! She's been an inspiration to many. I think age-limits are lame. If you can't handle the demands...then you will cut yourself out along the way.