Thread: Resturant rates in Denver

Okay, there is a middle eastern resturant near my house that is in an out of the way location and does not have much business. I walk by almost every day on my way to the grocery stores, at different hours of the day, and they seem to do okay weekend evenings, but that is about it. They only opened a couple of months ago, and I would hate to see them close, so I want to propose that they hire a dancer to help bring in business. (This would be a friend of mine, I am just a beginner). My question is, what should she ask for? I know the business is struggling, so she would not get much in tips, and but I know she does not want to undercut the area. My fabulous regular teacher who performs weekly at a resturant is out of town for the summer so I can't ask her for advice =( Thanks for the help everyone!
Nikki

I believe the going rate in Denver is $65 for one show, $85 for two. But I'd check with Maria or Jawahir, both here on bhuz. :)

Originally Posted by joanneraks

I believe the going rate in Denver is $65 for one show, $85 for two. But I'd check with Maria or Jawahir, both here on bhuz. :)

that is correct, that is the going rate.

Can I make a suggestion? If the restaurant is really struggling, they won't be able to afford to pay the dancer and advertise the fact that she's there. Spending money on a dancer to entertain the sparse diners who are already coming in might not seem like a very appealing deal to the restaurant owners.

But if your friend teaches classes, has a following among the local dance community, is good at generating press attention -- IOW, if she can put butts in restaurant seats without the restaurant having to spend a lot -- then she can bring them business.

I'd stress that, and agree to a once-a-month schedule at first until both parties can see how it goes.

Lauren,
Are you suggesting she undercuts or even dances for tips?
.....oh, now that I've read it more clearly, I don't think you are.

I'd have a different suggestion- and it supports business on both sides. They HAVE business on weekends, but not so much during the week, right? I'd suggest hiring the dancer (at the going rate) on a weekend night to start to get the word out. They can afford a dancer those nights and there are clients who will start the word of mouth process. A business should be able to at the very least put up a sign with a picture in the window and table cards on every table or something. Maybe even invest in postcards if possible. Get the waitstaff excited about it- if they're talking about it will help A LOT.
Does the restaurant have a website? Put it on the website. Do you have a website? Put it on yours. Is there a local belly dance website/list/group? Announce it on there. Put it on tribe. Invite your friends, family, fellow dancers etc. If they've made any promotional material of course share it with your students (if you have any) if you don't have students, that fine- share it with your class mates, your teacher etc etc etc. Share it at the PTA! Anywhere.

So where is this restaurant? Is it any good? Maybe I should check it out.

Here's another idea for them, but I don't know if it's feasible since I haven't seen the space. Maybe if they had enough room for a little dance floor and a decent sound system, they could promote open dance nights for belly dancers or be a venue for local haflas or student shows.

Uh, People, that is all UNDERCUTTING what you are all suggesting.
we've busted buttocks to get $65 at the restaurants, if everyone starts dancing at restaurants for free or tips or hafla nights, whatever, we're in big doo-doo.
This is really pi&*ing me off here.....

erdited to add, i re-read posts, and i see undercutting isn't mentioned.
i get all worked up about it......
see my post below....

arghhhh, it just makes me crazy that people think we will dance for free or for $25.....
or, better yet, for chicken wings and food!,m:: ,m:: ,m:: ,m:: ,m::

You know what, I think I've seen the error of my ways, I am going to start dancing for free, for free everywhere.
Never mind the thousands of dollars spent on costuming, lessons, leasing space for classes, money on my website, business license, insurance, taxes I pay, my tax id number, my yellow pages ad, my other advertising dollars.
The heck with it....
I am in it for the love.

see many many articles about undercutting......search and you will find.
it is not cool to do so.
thank you,
end of me being on this thread, my nerves can't take it.

NEVER dance for free or tips or meals if you are pro. You will never get that restaurant to up their pay. never ever! if a restaurant cannot afford dancers, they should not have dancers, period! ya know if you want to schedule monthly student nights, that could be different. but do not offer pro services for no pay. that is not cool, at all. like maria said. please tell that restaurant they should call you when the business picks up or when they can afford to pay the going rate. we already dance for peanuts. really when you think about how much money, time and sweat we have spent on this dance form to try and make it professionally, it's insulting! i think we've made our points. ,m::

and if you are not pro, don't dance at a restaurant, unless it is a student night. those can be good but only occasionally, monthy or quarterly.

I'm confused. I didn't read Lauren's post to mean that she dance for free!!

I thought she was suggesting to use the dancer's potential to draw in customers (especially if she has a following) as a selling point for *hiring* her?

Originally Posted by yasmilah

I'm confused. I didn't read Lauren's post to mean that she dance for free!!

I thought she was suggesting to use the dancer's potential to draw in customers (especially if she has a following) as a selling point for *hiring* her?

didn't sound like that to me. but i guess i don't really understand what she was suggesting. i guess those of us who have been trying to raise the standards are just a little jumpy at that subject.

after re-reading lauren's post, i think she was trying to give a selling point. to say, you pay me the going rate, and i put butts in your chairs and sell you some meals...i think the part we saw was the part about restaurants not wanting to spend extra money, and giving them a way to do that without spending too much...that made me read into a suggestion of undercutting. maybe i read that wrong.

i think we read it wrong, that's why i edited my post above to say that I mis-read. I also mis-read other posts too, and It was MY BAD, and I am taking full responsibility for the mis-read.....
sorry, everyone.
I think Lauren meant it as a selling poing, yes Lauren? I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth,

I want to add, in case anyone misunderstood me, that I was thinking of the type of events sponsored by dancers for other dancers - more of an informal, social thing, not a free show advertised to the general public.

If anything, I would think that giving non-professional dancers more opportunities to get together & try out their moves and show off their new costume items would make them less likely to start taking gigs away from the professional dancers just because they want a chance to get out and dance.

Originally Posted by *maria*

You know what, I think I've seen the error of my ways, I am going to start dancing for free, for free everywhere.
Never mind the thousands of dollars spent on costuming, lessons, leasing space for classes, money on my website, business license, insurance, taxes I pay, my tax id number, my yellow pages ad, my other advertising dollars.
The heck with it....
I am in it for the love.

Oh goody goody goody... Then you won't mind flying out to Portland and dancing for free at my birthday party!!!!! GOD I luv you........l;, ..l;,

one thing that we have tried suggesting here for a low-volume place is to try bringing in the dance on an OFF night, for pay, and advertising it heavily. For instance the place has low business on weekends, and zero business on the weekdays then anyobdy who shows up at all for the dancer will make a big impact on the owners. Of course, this will only work if the dance really can deliver in terms of having a following.

Just an theory there.

Oh! and also I agree, once a month is sufficient to start. but it has to be consistent in time and day. Owners are so terrfied that someone wil come in before or after the show. let's say showtime is 8:00 in example. they don't understand that acutally if a customer misses the show, but knows for certaitn that if they had gotten there at 8:00 there would be a dancer.... well, they could get that person's money TWICE! Once when they missed you and again when they return.

Making the owners graps the consistency concept has been an ongoing challenge in the past though.

Good luck to your friend, in any case!

I have tried to make this suggestion in my own town, when a new restaurant opens and wants to hire dancers, ask for a higher rate than what the other restaurants are paying. It's easier to get a new restaurant to pay $100 or $125 if all the dancers stick together. The older established restaurants are a pain in the ,m:: to get a raise. I fully believe in establishing a belly dancers union!! I agree with Jawahir, if you aren't a pro dancer, don't take paying gigs until you are ready, it ruins the business for those of us that do make our living as dancers!.p::

Wow! I didn't say anything about dancing for less than the going rate, much less free!

I just suggested that the best way to make the sale is to stress the fact that you've got a following -- if you have one.

And that it's easier for a struggling restaurant to commit to, say, once a month rather than a weekly schedule. It's easy to increase the frequency if things go well, but painful all around if the dancer is showing up to an empty house every Friday night.

How anyone got free or undercutting out of what I said I'll never know. Where did I say anything like that?

Originally Posted by jawahir

after re-reading lauren's post, i think she was trying to give a selling point. to say, you pay me the going rate, and i put butts in your chairs and sell you some meals....

YES, thank you. That's exactly what I was saying.

I

Wow, I'm going to have a lot more sympathy in the future for new Bhuzzers who are misunderstood and get defensive.

That felt a LOT like being slapped in the face hard, 6 or 7 times.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wow, I'm going to have a lot more sympathy in the future for new Bhuzzers who are misunderstood and get defensive.

That felt a LOT like being slapped in the face hard, 6 or 7 times.

sorry lauren. i read too much into the part about restaurants not wanting to pay or something when i first read it and then the post directly after mentioned it so i think i read it wrong from there too.

This leads to an interesting and related topic that I have been thinking about for a while. Perhaps it deserves it's own thread?

Anyway, is holding student nights in establishments that normally have paid pro dancers in them a form of undercutting?

I have very mixed feelings about this. I 'grew up' in a studio where we did four student nights a year (to live music...swoon!) in a restaurant with live dancers. BUT it was held on a night the place was normally closed, and almost always sold out to patrons who knew they were seeing a range of dancers from newbie to pro. It was a great way to grow as a dancer, and I still dance in my former teachers show when I can. It was also an early and important introduction to the scene.

But as a teacher, and a teacher who is making sure to give my own students at least two opportunities to dance (as student dancers) per year, I have decided not to do it in a restaurant that the general public normally goes to see a pro belly dance show. I might change my mind--never say never!--but would love to hear others thoughts on this. Many dancers I admire greatly hold shows in clubs or restaurants, and some don't. But the former is the norm, and it just does not sit quite right for my own work.

Clearly I am taking this way off topic. Will start a new thread if it seems interesting to folks.

a group of local dancers here that work in the same restaurant promote occasional student nights together at that restaurant. i think their business is a little slow normally so for them it's great. i think in general though, it's better to hold those nights in a restaurant that doesn't have pros. we used to hold one in an indian restaurant, but they didn't ever have regular dancers. i think that's the way to go if possible...maybe this should be a new topic??

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wow, I'm going to have a lot more sympathy in the future for new Bhuzzers who are misunderstood and get defensive.

That felt a LOT like being slapped in the face hard, 6 or 7 times.

so sorry lauren, see my apology above!

Originally Posted by jawahir

sorry lauren. i read too much into the part about restaurants not wanting to pay or something when i first read it and then the post directly after mentioned it so i think i read it wrong from there too.

that's where I read it wrong also.....

Originally Posted by Aradia

I have tried to make this suggestion in my own town, when a new restaurant opens and wants to hire dancers, ask for a higher rate than what the other restaurants are paying. It's easier to get a new restaurant to pay $100 or $125 if all the dancers stick together. The older established restaurants are a pain in the ,m:: to get a raise. I fully believe in establishing a belly dancers union!! I agree with Jawahir, if you aren't a pro dancer, don't take paying gigs until you are ready, it ruins the business for those of us that do make our living as dancers!.p::

Exactly!
I can't tell you how many times when people here my bellygram rate, which is now $125 for UP TO 1/2 hour, say, "Oh, just send a student for $50"

NO WAY! I do not send students out, it ruins my business reputation.p:: .p:: ,m:: ,m::

Monica, I used to do student nights at the Mataam Fez in Boulder, two a year.
It was a Wednesday and closed to the general public. It was just open to friends and family of the students.

This is such a loaded topic, pay and undercutting, that emotions completely get in the way......

Aradia, a bellydancers union sounds good, but to be practical , how would one start, my gut feeling is it would end up as a type of "mafia" if we aren't careful.
Have you put any ideas of thoughts into it?