Spin-off thread - Rates for newbies

[danielabellydance]

Thanks, Michelle. We are on the same page here....

[tahiradancer]

I wouldn't think a dancer in a restaurant would get a paycheck, like an employee. A dancer would be working as an independent contractor (and running a small business, for tax purposes).

So you pay your own taxes on your earnings and provide your own health care & retirement benefits. But, you also get to deduct your expenses!

eta: I suppose a dancer who performs 6 nights a week at the same restaurant *could* become an hourly employee of the restaurant, but then how would you get paid for the time you spend rehearsing, shopping for music, etc? I figure that's all built into the independent contractor rate.

At Dar you are hourly employees. At Koutoubia, he write a check twice a month for the regular house dancers and 1099's them. Other venues it depends. Private parties are a mixed bag. I take paypal for hte deposit, and give receipts where it is appropriate.

{{{HUGS}}}

[*maria*]

Busines is business, and there is nothing wrong with charging 10 or $15 even $20 less than the going rate others are charging, but what happens with that, is a slippery slope, especially in the smaller areas of the country, cause everyone will start lowering $10 - $15, then newbies come along, they lower $10 - $15, then everyone does, and round and round it goes, till the prices are way down at the bottom.

So I may agree with Daniella and Michelle in THEORY, in practice, in the smaller areas of the country, it won't work - but will work in the bigger cities, such as NY, Chicago, California, etc.

[Shirin.]

that is awful. just because somebody would like the music they are using doesn't mean that the person is going to steal their routine. I think its more like they're afraid somebody might come up with a better routine which might make them feel small?
back on topic,I do agree though that a dancer shouldn't go get the gigs until she feels worthy of professional pay- no matter how long it takes. besides, if there are less amatuers in the market that means it would be better for those professionals who are dancing for their living. Better for the dancers, and better for the GP as well because they would have a better opportunity to see professional dancing. There are places students and not-so-experienced dancers can go, but IMO paid gigs should not be that place. If a person feels they are ready to try to go pro, that person should ask the instructor first and see what she or he has to say about their level of dancing.

[helenasdance]

I wish that experience truly did pay at a higher rate. It should. You would think it would. But...the fact of the matter is...in this business, unless you are a superstar; if the boss can get cheaper then it really does not matter what your experience level is. He will get used to paying one rate and that is it. And good luck getting a raise.
I agree with Maria and Sharin. Unless you conduct yourself as a professional and therefore are able to charge professional rates, then you should not dance in a professional venue.
The most experienced ladies in my area who have been dancing in Egypt and have about 20+ years under their bedlah still are only making $60.00 a gig due to less experienced dancers charging less at the professional venues.
Do you see what we are talking about? I know you have the best intentions but business is cold and harsh and there is no grey area when it comes to money. I wish it were different but it is not. :(

[ChristinaRizkallah]

My experience at restaurants has also been cash under the table as this seems the norm in this industry.

restaurants: cash under the table
private parties: sometimes cash under the table, sometimes with a bill
corporate parties/festivals/events: with a proper bill.

the restaurant i was dancing at was stressing about the cash under tthe table thing, i kept telling him it's allright, we can write you a proper bill, we are properly registered, i can write bills, and get paid "officially", and he just would not even believe that

a lot of the "corporate" events we do, we get asked "can we do it officially", and they are so glad when i say yes cause often they've called a few dancers already who said no

[AngelaDiCaprio]

Michelle, I was undercut for $15.00 a night at one venue and the other...the dancer is working for food. When I asked one of the girls why they would do this, they said their teacher told them they were not talented enough to get paid yet.
So here is a great question: If they were not talented to be paid yet, then why would they dance in a restaurant? And...apparently, the owner thought they were good enough. That is another point to this very important topic. It is brutal out there.

I don't understand some people. If your not good enough for professional gigs then do something about it so you can be.

I had a chat with my Instructor over lunch a few weeks back about my desire to turn pro in 2008. She stated what I already knew, that I wasn't ready. Well like I said I knew that and it didn't break my heart. So we talked about what I needed to work on and we set a plan in action... I'm already performing in restaurants at community events and student show cases so I'm gaining my experience that way. By the time I turn pro I will have about a years restaurant experience and several competitions under my belt. If I decide to do restaurant work I plan on charging a little above the minimum acceptable rate.

[indigostars]

I'm going to give those people the benefit of the doubt and assume they're not aware of why that's an issue. Perhaps teachers should be very blunt and thorough about performing. The dancers who are undercutting in that example might think it's some kind of ethics in charging money, like how a student photographer shouldn't charge as much for a wedding as a seasoned pro.

[micamica]

Well, I'm jumping into this thread pretty late in the game, but I thought I should share an observation. I think one problem for newbies, even those who are ready for professional gigs, has to do with terminology. It seems that "standard rates" and "minimal rates" are being used interchangeably.

When I hear the term "standard rate" I think it means the "average" dance price for professionals-so some people are charging more, some less. This leaves some wiggle room for beginners, who should not be charging as much as someone with 15 years experience. If I heard this term, I would really think I was not undercutting by charging slightly less, because I am assuming this is an average of the dancers in my area, including those with more than a decade of experience.

The term "minimal rate" implies that that is the rock bottom, just like minimum wage. So this is where I would expect to see a beginning pro, with the super pros earning significantly higher. After hearing this term I would see this price as my starting point, and it would be undercutting if I went lower.

Nikki

[shahravar]

[QUOTE=phillyraqs;26306]Some stories for you from my neck of the woods -
$40 a night, even though the going rate was $50, QUOTE]
Wow! we have one restaurant they pay 30 flat no matter what level you are! since they have been in business for twenty years it has always been the same change is hard for some people.
Either I lose the opportunity for a restaurant gig Or I lose money at the restaurant gig. At a certain level I maintain the gig just as a practice venue I look at it as a paid rehersal.....g.:

[danielabellydance]

Well, I'm jumping into this thread pretty late in the game, but I thought I should share an observation. I think one problem for newbies, even those who are ready for professional gigs, has to do with terminology. It seems that "standard rates" and "minimal rates" are being used interchangeably.

When I hear the term "standard rate" I think it means the "average" dance price for professionals-so some people are charging more, some less. This leaves some wiggle room for beginners, who should not be charging as much as someone with 15 years experience. If I heard this term, I would really think I was not undercutting by charging slightly less, because I am assuming this is an average of the dancers in my area, including those with more than a decade of experience.

The term "minimal rate" implies that that is the rock bottom, just like minimum wage. So this is where I would expect to see a beginning pro, with the super pros earning significantly higher. After hearing this term I would see this price as my starting point, and it would be undercutting if I went lower.

Nikki

I think this is an excellent observation, and probably the cause of much of the confusion and misunderstanding. Good point - we need to be careful how we use the term "standard rate" - because that does imply that it is an average and therefore there is wiggle room.

[MelanieLA]

This whole issue is so definitely NOT black and white. The teacher not providing the right guidance, the student getting proper guidance but not listening, and to me, the most often overlooked factor, the restaurant owners who will not pay more and could care less about the quality of their dancers.

I see a lot of finger pointing at the awful undercutters, when it's entirely possible that someone has been badly misinformed, has been introduced into "pro" gigs for less by a crappy teacher, and a restaurant owner has officially validated the way less than ready dancer's professional stance because he/she HIRED her.
The restaurant business in most cities is in such a need of an overhaul.
Good restaurants with quality entertainment seemingly should be doing better and able to afford the entertainment.
Crap restaurants who cannot afford a reasonable rate would not do as well because they cannot get a quality entertainer.
It all seems so logical.

But it also most likely means for a lot of us, we won't be working. Which is why I've been doing a whole lot more costuming and non-dance work. I won't lower my wage. Oh well.

Hey! How about a good old-fashioned STRIKE?
Oh wait, we need a union for that.

[artemisia_danst]

the student i caught undercutting: if it is who i think it is, and others are in the same boat: they KNOW they are not good enough to do pro-gigs, the KNOW they are not good enough to ask a pro-price, and that's how they rationalise asking a ridiculously low fee, saying that,

so it's not that they are a "starting" pro (and i think that's what's daniela is talking about), who asks 10 dollars less than a long time pro, but they see them selves as not even pro, and use that as a reason for bottom prices, claiming they only do 'some parties'.

what bothers me at least as much as their prices is their (lack of) quality and costuming choices. the audience will think that's what i have to offer too.

I don't understand some people. If your not good enough for professional gigs then do something about it so you can be.

[Nepenthe]

what bothers me at least as much as their prices is their (lack of) quality and costuming choices. the audience will think that's what i have to offer too.

Does the ubiquitous clown analogy apply here?

If I hire a clown, even a cheap clown, and they show up with shoddy clown gear - say, stuff I could pick up myself at Halloween time - and do a crappy job clowning (say, they can't even make a single balloon animal) and can't handle the stress of the kids surrounding them....

that means next time I'm going to hire a quality clown and I'm going to let everyone know not to hire said crappy clown. I wouldn't think that all clowns suck - just that clown.

Right?
So hopefully those people will call you back and say "You were right - we should have hired a professional like you - we can pay you your rate."

Maybe a good idea for professionals is to have a section on your website about hiring bellydancers, things to look for, questions to ask (of course, where the answers from YOU would be positive). That way, even if they don't hire you, the person is educated and can tell a bad bellydancer from a good bellydancer.

[artemisia_danst]

yes and no, i'm not sure a big part of the GP will realise they didnt have a pro dancer, others might not care

[indigostars]

I think you're right, we know what a quality pro clown is vs. a quality pro dancer.

[casbahdance]

yes and no, i'm not sure a big part of the GP will realise they didnt have a pro dancer, others might not care

That's true.

The only way for the GP to figure it out is to see the difference in "professionals."

"You are so much better than the dancer we had last time."

I've heard that a few times in my pro career. Now, lest anyone think "my, that Deborah's got an awfully big head," I want to let you know that I believe myself to be a better entertainer than dancer, although I'm not a poor dancer, I hope. Because I am honest with myself about my abilities, I am pretty darn horrified when I hear someone say I am the cat's meow compared to someone they've seen before!

Quite frankly, I think most folks who have said that to me probably are referring to my presentation and ability to entertain rather than to my vastly superior technical skills, but they can't articulate the difference.

Inexperience in performing in a professional setting is different than incompetence in technique: I can accept a certain amount of inexperience, I will not stand for true technical incompetence from a person claiming to be a pro dancer, no matter what style of dance.


On to the subject of the thread:

I have absolutely no problem with just-starting professionals charging at the lower end of the "standard rate" (defined as an average for one's geographical area) or at the "acceptable minimum" (defined as the absolute lowest one should charge in one's area).


To digress (yet again), I know a few people who knowingly charge less than the standard rate and even below the acceptable miniumum for private parties and don't really think too much about it because they have the work when the rest of us are sitting at home drooling over that Eman pictured on our favorite costume website.

But, you see, it isn't worth it for me to get all dolled up to drive an hour to wait around somebody's smokey house while they finish up cutting the cake and then dance for 20 minutes and make a lousy $100 (or less), but it might for another person. (FYI, I charge a minimum of $175 for that 20 minute set -- I'm in Southern California -- and many dancers here charge more. I think the minimum for 20 minutes is around $150. Other SoCal dancers, please feel free to chime in here.)

Okay, I've rambled enough. This thread was a good read!

Deborah

[*maria*]

I have absolutely no problem with just-starting professionals charging at the lower end of the "standard rate" (defined as an average for one's geographical area) or at the "acceptable minimum" (defined as the absolute lowest one should charge in one's area).


To digress (yet again), I know a few people who knowingly charge less than the standard rate and even below the acceptable miniumum for private parties and don't really think too much about it because they have the work when the rest of us are sitting at home drooling over that Eman pictured on our favorite costume website.

Deborah

Agree here!
There's nothing wrong with charging WITHIN the acceptable minimum, but to KNOWINGLY undercharge.....
.p::

[Lilladancer]

Deborah just as a point of reference, I and several other OC dancers are now charging $200 as a minimum for private parties, one show, anywhere between 15 and 30 minutes. I know there are dancers in the area still charging $150 (or even $100 in the case of newbies who never bothered to ask an experienced dancer, or just thought if they asked less they'd get more gigs) but the way I look at it is that $150 was the standard rate for a 20 min. show at a private gig when I started doing private gigs over 10 years ago, AS A NEWBIE. Inflation has raised the prices of EVERYTHING.... why would a bellydancer's pay be frozen in time for 10 years?

My attitude towards it at this point is that if people call and ask my rate, I tell them it's $200 minimum. (Charity events are a different situation - if I support the charity, I may donate a performance). If they say "Oh, well there are other dancers charging less!" I say "Okay, call them."

I guess I've just reached the point where if I'm not being paid what I think is fair for performing at a (often lavish) private event, I'd rather stay home.

Interestingly, more often than not, when I stick to my rate and suggest they call someone else if they want a cheaper price, the person on the phone becomes frantic to hire me and doesn't want to call anyone else! LOL

[SamiraShuruk]

Aaaaahhh, so many different things to ponder.

Terminology- "Standard" rate vs. "Minimum acceptable" rate. So as to not be confused with "price setting" or worse "gouging", "standard rate" is an easier term for legal reasons.

This is the paragraph preceding the price list on my page:

"This list has been created for the express purpose of being a pro-active tool for dancers to gain awareness of the
fair rates in their region. Remember its about being fair, not forcing higher rates than a region can support, or
creating a hostile environment with anyone. Most of these rates are examples of minimum or starting rates
for newer dancers. Variation based on experience is expected. These rates do not reflect extra for mileage, specialties,
experience, or special circumstances. Remember, when starting new venues that it is VERY difficult to get a raise once the
rate is set. This means you want to start it at a rate where you'll be happy two years from now. The low end of rates is truly not
where you want to start.
Holiday rates (New Years, Valentines Day etc) are often either 1 and 1/2 or double, depending upon region."

I DID have to be careful with wording- I don't want venue owners to find it and be mad at me.

[SamiraShuruk]

Oh, yea:
http://www.samirashuruk.com/standard...uidelines.html

Updates anyone?

Here in DC there are regular venues that pay with check and places that pay cash. Corporate clients always pay check, of course and often ask for an invoice.

There are regular venues that pay a range to different dancers. There are regular venues that pay more on weekend nights and less during the week. I'd say generally anywhere from a $10-$20 spread. I see no problems with this.... as long as Susie Bint SixMonth doesn't go in and undercut the minimum.

Like Shems (and many others)- I wonder why people go out and charge less than professional rates "because they're new". I always say one should be able to get and keep gigs at or above the going rate in order to be professional. Abide by professional standards, not just in dance and entertainment techniques, but also, conduct, costuming etc etc

[casbahdance]

Deborah just as a point of reference, I and several other OC dancers are now charging $200 as a minimum for private parties, one show, anywhere between 15 and 30 minutes. My attitude towards it at this point is that if people call and ask my rate, I tell them it's $200 minimum. (Charity events are a different situation - if I support the charity, I may donate a performance). If they say "Oh, well there are other dancers charging less!" I say "Okay, call them."

Interestingly, more often than not, when I stick to my rate and suggest they call someone else if they want a cheaper price, the person on the phone becomes frantic to hire me and doesn't want to call anyone else! LOL

Thanks for the rate update, Lilla -- I'm givin' myself a raise! WHOO-HOO!

Deborah

[MelanieLA]

Samira, thank you so much for having this fantastic resource on your site. It's such a benefit to all of us; I love that it covers so many different regions. ..g.:

[Genisis]

This whole shish kebob of badness is why I don't dance at restaurants at all. :-P That and I hear the pay in my area is absolute peanuts. Anybody who offers me $30 to perform at their club can bite my left bangle. :-P

~*Genisis*~

[mekyria]

There's a lot of information in this thread. Thank you for starting the whole 'standard rate' vs. 'basic rate' discussion. I never looked at it this way, and it's easier to explain to other people about why you should ask a certain amount of money even if you don't have a lot of experience.

Over here, restaurant payments are cash, but some restaurants demand the possibility of writing out billls in case the IRS needs to know. There are a lot of dancers out here who dance in restaurants for next to nothing because they want to perform and haven't learned to put a value on themselves yet.

On the bright side, there are also restaurants who put a high standard for their performers because they use the 'live bellydancer' to draw in more customers. They've had dancers for over 20 years I think and a lot of belly dance teachers take their students out to that restaurant because it's well known. The restaurant owner knows that the guests will probably be able to distinguish good entertainment from crappy entertainment, so he only hires dancers with a sufficient level for a rate of 80 euro's for two sets.

I'd want to add that places that hire dancers on a regular base should know that bad personel can be bad for business. For example, if I go to a restaurant and the waiter is rude to me, I will not recommend this restaurant to other people or return. If they hired more experienced staff, it would make the experience so much better. I might come back with my whole family because I know that they have great service.

same thing with dancers: if a dancer can't entertain the audience, customers will think 'I couldn't talk with my friends because someone was hopping around for 15 minutes on loud music and I didn't like it. Let's go somewhere else.'