Spin-off thread - Rates for newbies

[danielabellydance]

I just had a conversation with a young dancer the other day. She expressed the usual concern ... that she didn't feel she should charge as much as a pro with experience. I was so glad to have been able to inform her. She was happy to be informed, and then wondered why we don't have a union.

This is something I've been thinking about for a while. I am not a beginner, so please don't think I am trying to find an opportunity to undercut. I'm just trying to open up a dialogue.

I don't understand this notion that all bellydancers of all levels must charge the same price or they are undercutting. I am NOT promoting performing for pay by students and dancers who are not ready to go pro. However, a pro dancer has to start out somewhere, and are we saying that she needs to charge the same rate as someone who's been in the business 20 years, lest she be considered doing a disservice to her community?

I've tried to find a parallel profession where this is the case. I can't. I am an attorney, and I work in adoption and reproductive law. I work in a small start-up firm and when my boss started, she got the business by severely undercutting the prices of competitors. She had to. No one had heard of her. If she charged the same as the lawyers who had been doing this for decades, she would have quickly been out of business. Now that our firm name is recognized and we have an established client base, our rates have risen to ABOVE the average - but it took a while to get there.

Almost any profession I can think of charge less for newer professionals, and more for more experience. Law firms have hourly rates for their first year associates that are at least $100 less per hour than partners. Hire a photographer for your wedding, or a wedding planner, or a florist, and you will pay more for experience, even though you are dealing with the same job. The difference is hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of dollars.

(continued in next post due to space restrictions....)

[danielabellydance]

Need an accountant? If you want one with experience, you are going to pay more than if you hire someone new. Massage therapists too. And nail technicians. My hair salon has lower rates for "junior stylists" and higher rates for experienced stylists.

In NY, you can hire a string quartet of Juliard student musicians to play at your cocktail hour for over $1,000 less than you could hire an experienced quartet to do the same.

I could go on. My point is every single profession that I can think of makes it a standard practice for new members of the field to charge less than seasoned professionals. It is understood that you are paying for EXPERIENCE and EXPERTISE.

Why do we expect bellydancers to be different?

Ok....discuss.,r:;

[Michelle75]

Hi Danielabellydance,

Those are very good points you brought up. I agree one hundred percent with you.
If I ever decided to start dancing professionally, I would start with a lower price b/c I would want the experience under my belt. I have been dancing for nearly nine years off and on now and I couldn't even tell someone,oh, I charge the standard rate of________, here's my website with videos so you can see my performances. I could see the look of shock on their face and immediatley going to the next person who dances better for the same price. People KNOW that you get what you pay for and if you are honest about it up front than I would think someone would have a better chance of getting the job that way.
Just my two cents on this topic.

[shems]

I feel as though it is not an expectation that every dancer starting to take pro gigs should charge exactly the same as the seasoned dancers. I think there is an expectation that they should do their best not to lower rates overall and to meet an acceptable minimum.

In my community, the more experienced or more in demand dancers do get higher pay. They charge more for parties, they even get paid more at some of the clubs and restaurants. That makes perfect sense to me.

I think the important thing is the difference be upward and not downward. If for example an establishment pays all of it's dancers $60 a set, and somebody new comes along and agrees to $50 a set, then somebody newer comes along and agrees to $40 a set, then we are quickly on a slippery slope down to nothing. If on the other hand all the new dancers agree to no less than $60 a set, then the stronger dancers are more likely to manage negotiating $75 a set or $85 a set with the same establishment pointing out that they are worth more than the typical starting wage of $60.

There is a point in some dancers careers that despite their experience they have a hard time commanding greater wages. Sadly, at this point it might be a good idea to look honestly at oneself and see if one might be getting too old to be working certain jobs. There are also some of the more experienced dancers that seem to help perpetuate low wages instead of trying to improve things for themselves. They insist that beginning pros charge the same as them, instead of letting the beginners maintain an opening wage and their asking for more. Just because there are some experienced dancers who charge rock bottom wages, I don't think beginners should go lower than a certain standard minimum for any given community. Some people have to make their living at dance and we should make an effort to keep that possible.

[danielabellydance]

I feel as though it is not an expectation that every dancer starting to take pro gigs should charge exactly the same as the seasoned dancers. I think there is an expectation that they should do their best not to lower rates overall and to meet an acceptable minimum.

I like that "acceptable minimum" standard. I think this quote is the way to approach new pros entering the performing world.

[shems]

Just want to add a final note. If you can't command a reasonable minimum professional wage you should not be marketing yourself for professional gigs. I do think there is a certain quality requirement before one jumps out and starts gigging at any level.

[*maria*]

I completely disagree. The bellydance business/arts in general run completely different from the "real world".
Here's why:
The gp and restaurant owners DON"T CARE if you are a "seasoned" professional or a beginner. They want to pay the least they can. If a dancer walks in because they are new and says, I'll dance at the restaurant for $25 because I'm new and need the experience, and goes out for bellygram or any other kind of gigs and undercuts, guess what?
NO ONE, especially the general public will pay what we have worked for to get rates raised.
That is undercutting in the community......
I charge $125 for up to 1/2 hour bellygram now, if someone out there is charging $50 cause they are new, guess who the GP will hire?
Then WE ALL have to drop our rates just to get work and they WILL NEVER GO BACK UP......

[danielabellydance]

I don't know if I agree with that. Yes, many people only want a girl in a sparkly costume who can shake her booty and ta-ta's, but those aren't the gigs you want anyway.

I get phone calls all the time from people who say "Why do you charge $225 for 1/2 hour? I called a bunch of dancers and they will do 1/2 hour for $150". ALL the time. Most of the time, the "You get what you pay for" argument works well. Again, the times it doesn't, those are probably the gigs I wouldn't go to without an armed bodyguard, anyway....

[*maria*]

NY is different from the rest of the country though.
What works for NY doesn't work in most of the rest of the country.
For those reading this post, I'm from NY, been in Boulder Colorado 13 years and things are WAY different.

[*maria*]

I lose lots of grams and such because people won't pay my rate, and that's fine. Most of the gigs I get are people who have seen me, or word of mouth, and they are, for the most part, willing to pay my rate.
So, I understand that point.
But to Severely undercut, no, sorry, I disagree.

[*maria*]

luv to see other people chime in here......
gotta run! will come back and check thread later.....

[danielabellydance]

I do agree that NY is different than the rest of the world, which is partly why I posted this - to open a discussion and see what the deal is in the rest of the country (and world!)

And, incase it did not come across clearly enough in my previous posts - I am NOT promoting severly undercutting. I am questioning the philosophy that there is no wiggle room for new professional dancers to price themselves accordingly, in order to get their foot in the door. The analogy of my law firm severly undercutting was just that - an analogy.

Again, I like the idea of an "acceptable minimum" standard.

[Michelle75]

I'm not so sure I agree with Maria either. I'm disagreeing with a pleasant smile on my face.

When one starts dancing professionaly and you start off with an "acceptable minimum" rate as mentioned above then that leaves you room to increase your price as you dance regularly and improve with each gig. No matter what level you are when you start dancing professionaly, you will continue to get better and you should be paid for that experience and level of dance.

Now as for the $25, does that really happen or were you using that figure as an example. I can't imagine anyone dancer in their right mind agreeing to $25 for a gig.

[kamilia]

You don't think anyone would dance for $25 because you might not have seen what darkness lies in the hearts of dancers .w.: Come to DC! People will dance for a cookie here...

[*maria*]

You don't think anyone would dance for $25 because you might not have seen what darkness lies in the hearts of dancers .w.: Come to DC! People will dance for a cookie here...

yes.
*********************************

I know you weren't advocating undercutting Daniella, but that is what happens. the acceptable minimum will go down and down, then everyone else will have to lower thteir prices to meet the 'acceptable minimum".

If you are new and cannot get the going rate because you are new, then maybe you aren't ready to dance?
When I first started dancing in restaurants, I got the going rate......
same with grams and such.

[*maria*]

Guys, I'm totally fine with you all disagreeing with me.


Why is it in bellydance, students go out there, not ready, and ask for less money just to get jobs?
Bellydancers should get out there on a professional level when their teachers, etc., think they are ready to do so, not before, so they can compete at the same level as the professionals already out there.

DISCUSS.....

[phillyraqs]

Some stories for you from my neck of the woods -

A newbie dancer going pro recently started dancing at an area restaurant. She agreed to dance there for $40 a night, even though the going rate was $50, because she felt that she was new and shouldn't charge the same rate as other dancers at the restaurant, who all had at least 10 years of professional dancing experience.

What she didn't realize was that none of those professionals were charging $50 - they were charging $60, $70, $80. This dancer had inadvertently undercut herself! $50 is the absolute minimum she should have taken. Once a few dancers explained this to her, she negotiated with the owners and is now making more than the minimum.

I think it is a slippery slope - especially because people/restaurant owners will absolutely squeeze you dry on price. The restaurant definitely kept quiet in the example above and happily paid her much less. I definitely agree with Maria on her comments on the GP and with Rhabtour, who said "If you can't command a reasonable minimum professional wage you should not be marketing yourself for professional gigs." Absolutely!

Another example that recently happened in my area - a newer dancer did a private bellygram for $50, and the standard rate is $100. The people who hired her pressured her and knew that she was new and told her that she shouldn't charge the full rate, she needs to start somewhere, etc etc. But she didn't realize that the standard rate is the lowest rate - most of us charge much more than that for bellygrams. It would have been fine her to take the bellygram for $100, since my rate is $150, another more experienced dancer is $175, etc, etc and $100 is the minimum. But she undercut herself by taking a gram for $50 when my rate is $150! That's a huge price difference.

Sorry for the rambling and any spelling mistakes - I keep getting interrupted at work. (How dare they take me away from my bhuz?!)

[*maria*]

A newbie dancer going pro recently started dancing at an area restaurant. She agreed to dance there for $40 a night, even though the going rate was $50, because she felt that she was new and shouldn't charge the same rate as other dancers at the restaurant, who all had at least 10 years of professional dancing experience.

What she didn't realize was that none of those professionals were charging $50 - they were charging $60, $70, $80. This dancer had inadvertently undercut herself! $50 is the absolute minimum she should have taken. Once a few dancers explained this to her, she negotiated with the owners and is now making more than the minimum.

I think it is a slippery slope - especially because people/restaurant owners will absolutely squeeze you dry on price. The restaurant definitely kept quiet in the example above and happily paid her much less. I definitely agree with Maria on her comments on the GP and with Rhabtour, who said "If you can't command a reasonable minimum professional wage you should not be marketing yourself for professional gigs." Absolutely!

Another example that recently happened in my area - a newer dancer did a private bellygram for $50, and the standard rate is $100. The people who hired her pressured her and knew that she was new and told her that she shouldn't charge the full rate, she needs to start somewhere, etc etc. But she didn't realize that the standard rate is the lowest rate - most of us charge much more than that for bellygrams. It would have been fine her to take the bellygram for $100, since my rate is $150, another more experienced dancer is $175, etc, etc and $100 is the minimum. But she undercut herself by taking a gram for $50 when my rate is $150! That's a huge price difference.

thank you Jennifer, you agree with me, therefore you are BRILLIANT! ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

seriously though, it is a slippery slope.....

[mahsati]

Now as for the $25, does that really happen or were you using that figure as an example. I can't imagine anyone dancer in their right mind agreeing to $25 for a gig.

Yes, it does happen. At one of my previous restaurant gigs I was receiving $175 for two fifteen minute sets. A less experienced dancer came in and offered to dance for the entire night for $10 per set plus a meal. The owners came to me and asked me to lower my price to that and I refused. That restaurant is now paying $30 for continuous dancing from 7:30pm-1:30am.

I happens and it is a hard thing to undo in most cases.

I tend to think of standard rates *as* the acceptable minimum for the area. If you are better than a minimum level dancer, then you can charge more. In my current location I have fewer gigs than in my previous location because I choose not to work for low wages, but the gigs I do are fantastic. It can be hard to stick to sometimes, but I have a hard minimum price and simply let potential bookers know that my price includes a professional show from a dancer with a lot of years of experience.

I think one of the things that is different about New York is the number of available gigs. In most places, once a dancer charges less than the going rate, then it is a quick cascade to all the gigs in the area paying the same new low amount. If a law firm worked primarily with repeat customers from the beginning of the business, then those clients would likely balk at increases in pay over time. That is where dancers are stuck in most places. The owner who will gladly pay a beginner $25 will almost never raise that price for her as she improves. He will just move on to the next beginner dancer for $25. In most businesses you work to improve is rewarded by your employers - that is the exception rather than the rule in a lot of the belly dance scene.

Good questions - lots of food for thought

[*maria*]

At one of my previous restaurant gigs I was receiving $175 for two fifteen minute sets. A less experienced dancer came in and offered to dance for the entire night for $10 per set plus a meal. The owners came to me and asked me to lower my price to that and I refused. That restaurant is now paying $30 for continuous dancing from 7:30pm-1:30am.

Everyone, see quote above and ponder. It happens ALL THE TIME....

[Michelle75]

It would have been fine her to take the bellygram for $100, since my rate is $150, another more experienced dancer is $175, etc, etc and $100 is the minimum

Phillyraqs,

I think what you said is what Rhabtour was saying about an acceptable minimum. What I don't understand is how is it OK for an expierenced dancer to raise her price over the years but it is NOT OK for a newer dancer to start $10 lower and than continue to raise her prices with her expierence. That is the impression I'm getting. :Abiggrin:

$10 + a meal. WHY??????? What would that do for her? That is just retarded.

[Genisis]

*Dies Laughing* I'll just set out a tray of cookies and see who shows up. ;-)
Is that terrible humor?

~*Genisis*~

[phillyraqs]

To carry the law firm analogy a bit farther (since I work in a firm myself) -

Starting pay for first year lawyers is jumping up across the country. While the starting pay at a large, top 100 firm was $125,000, it has recently skyrocketed to $140,000 and even $165,000 in some areas. (I know, makes you want to be a lawyer, right?!)

But even when the pay was $125K, that was the absolute minimum for big name firms. I am sure that the Harvard Law grad who was editor of his or her law review and who volunteered in third world countries in their spare time while simultaneously clerking for a supreme court judge got a lot more than that. But the $125K was the minimum - no recent grad was going to say, "Hey, please hire me - and only pay me $95K because I'm new and didn't go to Harvard Law or clerk for a supreme court judge!"

That's kind of what happens in belly dance - we position ourselves too low sometimes.

I think, too often, we dancers put a lot of pressure on ourselves - "Ohhhh, I'm not a huge professional - I'm no Jillina or Maria or Daniela (or insert name here) so I need to charge a lot less." If you are performing professionally, then you need to charge a professional price. I'm fine if that's a bit lower than my price, but it needs to be in line with the general minimums in my community.

[Genisis]

I don't dance at private gigs much around here mostly because I've heard conflicting stories about pay. Restaurant managers seem to be offering peanuts but the established dancers have alluded to being paid properly. I think something foul is going on but since I work primarily with a troupe at faires and such I haven't done more research. I'm not even sure if it's my place to but my nose in.

~*Genisis*~

[phillyraqs]

Phillyraqs,

I think what you said is what Rhabtour was saying about an acceptable minimum. What I don't understand is how is it OK for an expierenced dancer to raise her price over the years but it is NOT OK for a newer dancer to start $10 lower and than continue to raise her prices with her expierence. That is the impression I'm getting. :Abiggrin:

Hee, can you tell I get all worked about this topic?! I never post so much!

I totally get what you are saying too, Michelle. Like I mention in my previous post, which I posted before seeing your reply, I'm fine with charging less than more experienced dancers and I can understand that. But it's a fine line, and I guess we all have our war stories where charging less than an experienced dancer turns into charging less than the going rate.

So hey, if we were dancing in the same area and you charge a restaurant $50 and the minimum for restaurant jobs is $50 but I charge $60 because I've been there 3 years and negotiated that price, no problem. If you were to charge $40 when no one dances for $40 in the area, then that's a problem. And it opens the door to restaurants lowering the minimum from $50 to $40.

Does that make sense? So, yeah, we're gonna charge different prices, and that's fine, as long as we all stay within a going rate. (Or on those happy rare occasions, raise the going rate!)

[indigostars]

I think the comparison to other professions, like dentistry (I go to a student clinic), even within the arts, is difficult, because belly dance simply doesn't have the same respect, celebrity, and established practices to have the scale. Ideally, I think there should be sliding scale according to your level and what you bring to the table, but I think in the current state of belly dance, it's not possible.

[artemisia_danst]

i agree with maria.

with lawyers, music bands, accountants, people seem to KNOW that "they get what they pay for", and that a cheaper option also might mean less good/qualified/experienced. it doenst work like that in the entertainment industry, unless you are only working for corporate clients. when i started out as a pro i lost gigs cause i quoted too low, so they thought she cant be any good at that price. but for restaurant, private parties, it does not work like that.

the other thing is that we all knwo that pros that start out and ask less 'cause they start out' do undercut, even though that's not what they want. i always run into students that are doing private parties for 50E cause "they are just starting out", and they cant charge what i charge (200E for the same party and tell my dancers that are starting out NOT to go below 150). i even know of some that go with 4 (a group of friends that are 'just having fun') for the same 50€. ugh.

it is such a struggle getting it into students head that they should charge a decent price, and if they dont think they are good enough, they should wait with performing untill they do feel they are worth that price.

artemisia

I completely disagree. ..

[nisaasaintlouis]

Just want to add a final note. If you can't command a reasonable minimum professional wage you should not be marketing yourself for professional gigs. I do think there is a certain quality requirement before one jumps out and starts gigging at any level.

Yes, yes yes!

And on a related note, and I'm probably stating the obvious because I can't imagine this is only happening here: in my area, many beginning dancers seem to view restaurant work as a primary means to get performance experience. So you have dancers with a couple of haflas under their belt going out and performing at paying gigs in order to "cut their teeth." Until dancers stop treating restaurants as performance practice, it will be impossible to raise pay standards in restaurants because owners have a flood of ready and eager inexperienced dancers, not to mention directors/instructors who actually encourage their students to perform in these venues. I say this with some chagrin because when I was new and inexperienced I started restaurant work WAY to early and with very little guidance from my instructor...which makes me think...a lot of this problem starts at the level of teachers and troupe directors.

I support the idea of minimum rates, but you need everyone in your community on board with it, otherwise nothing will change. For example, those of us who are posting here agree on maintaining fair rates, ethical standards, etc....but the people who are undercutting will never engage in these discussions and will continue to sabotage everyone else.

Nisaa

[resullivan]

(not that I am ready to go pro anytime soon, or ever for that matter)

So.......what I am hearing is that before going pro, one should really really talk to area dancers to get an idea of the minimum amount to get paid. And if one is an existing pro, one must share prices with other dancers, or they may wind up unintentionally undercutting.

[Michelle75]

Yes that is right Resullivan. I know two dancers right off hand that won't tell how much they make per gig and they won't share the name of music b/c they don't want someone "stealing" their routine. I said to her "you really believe that someone who wants that song will stop looking when you tell them you won't share" and she responded, "if they want it that bad, than they should have to hunt for it as I did".
I think her attitude is down right dispicable and I wouldn't be surprised if she is severaly undercutting ladies in my area.