Thread: Discussing our prices with clients

It seems as though every time pricing comes up for discussion, the knee-jerk reaction of dancers is to defend our prices by talking about how much prep time we put into shows, how much our costumes cost, how much we spend on workshops, etc.

Sorry, folks, but the expenses you incur are not what define value. I could spend all afternoon sitting in my back yard counting the leaves on the oak tree, but even though I put a lot of time and effort into doing that, no one is going to be willing to pay me for 4 hours of "work" in order to find out how many leaves I actually counted.

It just sounds defensive and whiney when we start saying, "Well, here are all the expenses I've incurred for my art."

Instead, we should talk about the value of what we offer. "I'm a highly-trained professional with x years of experience in performance. When people hire me, they know they can count on a quality experience for their guests...."

that's a really good point shira. i try to do that but i am guilty of using my driving time as an argument point- and tolls. a lot of times that is the main reason why i am so much higher. dancers in my area have worked really hard to get the rates up which is why i stick to my guns

I think that's a great insight, Shira! I agree.

Good tip!

I do agree with that as well, but as our clients are used to paying for services by the hour (accountants, lawyers, contractors, consultants, etc - all charge hourly rates), sometimes you'll get the "but you are only dancing for 20 minutes!" argument. At which point you have to justify it by pointing out that the preparation and travel time actually turn a 20 minute gig into a 3 hour ordeal. And then you price doesn't look so crazy to them anymore.

agreed Shira (though I'm not dancing in restaurants right now) ..when you defend a sale it almost seems as you are chasing the sale..let the client chase you

I had wonderful success in the past by approaching owners and asking if they would allow me to bring in private parties and be their dancer. This worked exceptionally well for restaurants that were not ME and maybe had never considered a bellydancer before. But they hear private party and they want your contact info for more parties.

Makes sense to me. Like Daniela, I wouldn't justify my rate by citing the time involved unless that specifically was the issue the client brought up -- though I haven't had to deal with that objection. In fact, I rarely get specific objections, people usually either pay my price or don't hire me, they rarely argue.

I think if they did I'd just say "I cost about the same as a plumber, and my costume is fancier."

To me, reminding ourselves of all the stuff that goes into our pricing (costumes, lessons, music purchases, etc) is internal work. We do it for ourselves -- and for each other -- so we can present our prices strongly to the client, without apology.

These conversations always remind me of the Picasso story. Could be an urban legend, there are lots of variations, but it's a great story!

The story goes that Picasso was sitting in a Paris café when an admirer approached and asked if he would do a quick sketch on a paper napkin. Picasso politely agreed, swiftly executed the work, and handed back the napkin — and asked for $1500.

The admirer was shocked: “How can you ask for so much? It took you a minute to draw this!” “No”, Picasso replied, “It took me 40 years”.

“No”, Picasso replied, “It took me 40 years”.

I love this!

I think if they did I'd just say "I cost about the same as a plumber, and my costume is fancier." ..l;,

Too funny Lauren...I will have to remember that.

Hi Shira,
It would seem that this thread is in response to my rant about not using a contract and then giving the non-client reasonings for my price.
I rarely justify my price, and I know that no one really cares. This lady whined about my price and seemed to want me to drop it, that is why I gave her a brief explanation. It made me feel better, so I did it.
You are right, we are worth what the client will pay and the value we will bring their event. I had discussed those issues with her previously.
Thanks for the insight.
Sandra

Originally Posted by SandraDances

Hi Shira,
It would seem that this thread is in response to my rant about not using a contract and then giving the non-client reasonings for my price.

Hi Sandra! Although it's true your rant inspired me to post this thread, I've seen dancers justify/defend our prices based on our cost structure many times in the past both here on bhuz and over on tribe.net. If your message was the first time I'd ever seen a dancer use that justification for pricing, I wouldn't have started this thread - so even though you inspired it, I wasn't meaning to target you as an individual.

A lot of dancers have never had any training in professional sales techniques, and a lot of what we do when we market ourselves comes from gut instinct, learning from our own errors, discussions on forums like this one, etc. Since I've worked in corporate sales and marketing in my day job for over 20 years, I just thought it might be helpful to share with everyone a selling skill that corporate sales professionals use every day.

I remember the time I called on a person at a market research company who wanted to sell a database of technical specifications on printers. I told her that the price she wanted to sell it for was exorbitant compared to what anyone would actually be willing to pay for it, and her answer was, "This data has value - it took us hundreds of hours to collect it." I had to explain the realities of life to her, that customers won't give a damn how much time it took her to collect it, they'll only care whether it is useful enough to justify the price.

The only time I have ever gone into the details about prep time/expenses with clients is when they've flat out asked me, "Why are you (or dancers in general) so expensive?" It doesn't happen often, but when it does I tend to go into the nitty-gritty. However, I always keep my tone light and professional while doing so.

Usually my response is that my prices reflect the professional quality of the services they will receive in regards to skill, costuming/appearance, reliability and experience with their event category (wedding, BellyGram, Corporate event, etc.). I usually leave it unsaid that if they're unwilling to pay the going rate for a pro dancer, they'll likely be disappointed with their experience.

Hi Shira!

Great topic. This year, I've gotten a lot of calls and emails about private parties and once I present my pricelist they go into shock. Then I get the questions "Why is it so much...?" Blah, blah, blah. My response is simply, because I'm that good

Seriously though, my response is similar to what Laura said. It's about the quality of the dancer, costuming, professionalism etc. In the end, they get what they pay for.

~Ahava

[QUOTE=laura 2;301786] "Why are you (or dancers in general) so expensive?" QUOTE]

It made me think...do people ever balk at musician (i.e. band) or even DJ fees when trying to hire for a wedding or some other event? Not usually and they cost into the hundreds if not, thousands of dollars. I agree...quality. And to add, my husband had to take his car into the dealer' service department and they charge $128 an hour. This all shows that when wanting and expecting professional services, it is not going to be pocket change.

Yes, overjustifying the price just doesn't sound right.
Once a photographer completely turned me off when he started to complain how many $1000 his equipment cost, etc. I didn't hire him, and when I hear his name I always think of how amateurish he sounded. (he's well known, with excellent work, so God only knows why he had to go into that).

In sales I always learned that it's best to talk about what the product can do for the client (features and benefits) as opposed to what it can do for me / why I want to sell it so bad.

It's true here also. Instead of going into how many hours and $ I put into it, from the clients point of view it sounds more valuable if we stress the value of a professional show, with quality dancing, years of experience, etc.

i never discuss prices. never. i dont legitimate prices either, except for the short tongue in cheek "well, there's lada's and there's mercedesses" if they say "other dancers are cheaper". hehe, no problems comparing myself to a car there ;-)

but nope, i quote my price and basically that's it. if they say, "it's too expensive", i just say "i'm sorry if it's too expensive for your party budget, but this is my rate", or "this is the rate for a professional dancer/profesisonal entertainment"... if they ask for a student/price of a student i tell them "all my students that perform at parties are professional level and their rate is the same"... and then either they hire me or dont. i feel it is completely useless to legitimize why i'm charging what i'm charging. do we ask other professionals why/how they came to charge what they charge?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

It seems as though every time pricing comes up for discussion, the knee-jerk reaction of dancers is to defend our prices by talking about how much prep time we put into shows, how much our costumes cost, how much we spend on workshops, etc.

Sorry, folks, but the expenses you incur are not what define value. I could spend all afternoon sitting in my back yard counting the leaves on the oak tree, but even though I put a lot of time and effort into doing that, no one is going to be willing to pay me for 4 hours of "work" in order to find out how many leaves I actually counted.

It just sounds defensive and whiney when we start saying, "Well, here are all the expenses I've incurred for my art."

Instead, we should talk about the value of what we offer. "I'm a highly-trained professional with x years of experience in performance. When people hire me, they know they can count on a quality experience for their guests...."

hey, i think in your situatuin i understand. i mostly mean the discussions beforehand on the telephone... or via email. when they are trying to decide whether or not to hire you. i dont do those.

Originally Posted by SandraDances

Hi Shira,
It would seem that this thread is in response to my rant about not using a contract and then giving the non-client reasonings for my price.
I rarely justify my price, and I know that no one really cares. This lady whined about my price and seemed to want me to drop it, that is why I gave her a brief explanation. It made me feel better, so I did it.
You are right, we are worth what the client will pay and the value we will bring their event. I had discussed those issues with her previously.
Thanks for the insight.
Sandra

Another thought along the same lines as my original post:

I've been working in corporate America since 1982. Not once have I told an employer that the reason they should pay me what I'm asking for salary is because my college education cost $x and therefore they need to pay me $y to cover that expense. Nope, I tell them they should pay me what they pay me because I'm good at what I do, and I prove it with the skills that I exhibit in the interview process! (For a dancer, the equivalent to the "interview process" could be having video clips on your web site.)