Thread: Pricing for workshops

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

First, I don't pay for meals. I think this is an abuse, no matter where you go or even if your at home you have to feed yourself. Why should they deserve free meals? I may consider making exceptions provided that the Workshop Instructor has the draw to fill the workshop. This is a hot button for me.

Well, I do understand the logic that eating at home and eating on the road are two different things. So I do think that headliners should be compensated for this; however, my personal thought is that they should just include this in their quote. When I'm paying someone $1500 or more for a day of teaching, then I don't want to be nickel'd and dime'd for another $40 dollar a day.

Another dancer posted on a different site and I think am also going to adopt this policy of not paying for travel and lodging expenses with the exception of the draw consideration.

I always ask my talent if they are willing to stay at somone's home to save on expenses and most of them are fine with that. However, at a certain point, I think it's unprofessional to expect all artists to be ok with this. These are professionals in their field. You wouldn't expect a prominent keynote speaker to sleep in your bed. Besides, a hotel room is usually $100 or less. In the grand scheme of things...it's a minor expense. I am not saying it doesn't add up. I am paying for 5+ hotel rooms for 4+ nights at
my event this year...and that adds up. But it just isn't worth the headache to have to figure out how to shuttle everyone to/from the venue.

As for insurance? The workshop Instructor needs to have their own liability insurance. I know that my insurance will only cover them if they are an employee of mine and that means filling out all the w-2's and withholding taxes. Now if it is a large event/festival that is a different scenario and I would pay that insurance and include it in my cost analysis.

I always held workshops at the studio I owned, so I was covered; however, I think it is in your best interest to cover your business. If someone gets hurt, it's the organizer who gets sued. Yes, teachers also need their own insurance.

Speaking of taxes, workshop instructors need to be given a 1099. Here is a link on info for 1099's What is a 1099 Form? I think this is important if you are going to be claiming workshop expenses on your tax returns. Then you are not responsible for with holding of taxes and you will not have to be looking over your shoulder in case of an audit by the IRS.

Only if you are paying someone over $500 a year. I had 2 individuals who wouldn't sign them last year, but luckily I have their emails to prove it and I can submit that as evidence to the IRS that they were uncooperative. This year these forms will be signed in advance. LOL. ..l;,

Originally Posted by MariaAya

I just had a horrible weekend with show and workshops.
I was hosting Ousama Emam from Kaoumeya troupe from Cairo to Athens.
Show on Friday night, workshops Saturday 3 hour pop baladi, Sunday 2 hours Nubian, 3 hours Saidi (no cane).

Due to the riots in Athens, on Thusrday night the Theatre of OUR show was occupied by anarchists and on the day of the show they BURNED the stage !!!
So imagine the morning of the show, i picked Ousama from airport and told him the news...... (500 euro lost from advertizing, flyers, radio stations, paying rehearshals musicians etc).

The workshops went better than was I exprected with all the problems (dangerous transformation with burning roads etc).
I had 13 cancelations from out of Athens students, so we had just 15 students in the workshops.
If I wasnt going from the begining for a PROFIT i would have been crying now.
The workshop payed for the lost of the show also.

Was the 8 hours, 120 euro = around 170 $

Its a difficult time nowdays with economy all over the world.
I'm organizing workshops 5 years now, more than 3 per year, and from last year, i see that students prefer to take lessons than come to a workshop.
So at this point i'm canceling the next workshops of February and giving my energy to my classes (12 classes of 1 hour and half per week).
And they asked me to give special workshops on subjects monthly 3 hours, and just clossed booking till April. (for 50 $ = 50 euro) the 3 hour.

I have the general feeling that we are in a turn in bellydance.
Festivals, workshops etc cost more now, and people just dont have the money.

and on the initial question, no the workshop is not expensive.
And many great advice given already

sorry just wanted to vent (and cry a bit)
Maria Aya, Athens Greece

This is the perfect example of why planning for profit is key. If you had merely wanted to break even, you would be paying out of pocket right now.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Only if you are paying someone over $500 a year. I had 2 individuals who wouldn't sign them last year, but luckily I have their emails to prove it and I can submit that as evidence to the IRS that they were uncooperative. This year these forms will be signed in advance. LOL. ..l;,

Actually it is mandatory for amounts over $500 but you still can report for amount under.

I use to be an independant contractor when I had my cleaning service. I had one customer that reported when only I was paid 150.00. I will file like this just so I can CMOA for deductions I take.....

Oh, Maria, how awful :-( I'm glad at least that the workshops went well, but what a terrible experience.

WRT hotel and travel expenses--in metro Boston, you are very unlikely to find a hotel for under $100, and if you do, it's most likely not somewhere you would want to stay yourself. And travel isn't cheap either, especially if airfare is involved. If a workshop instructor makes say $500 from teaching, is it fair to expect her to cough up at least half of that for hotel and travel? Where is the workshop instructor's incentive for ever leaving home?

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

I always ask my talent if they are willing to stay at somone's home to save on expenses and most of them are fine with that. However, at a certain point, I think it's unprofessional to expect all artists to be ok with this. These are professionals in their field. You wouldn't expect a prominent keynote speaker to sleep in your bed. Besides, a hotel room is usually $100 or less. In the grand scheme of things...it's a minor expense. I am not saying it doesn't add up. I am paying for 5+ hotel rooms for 4+ nights at
my event this year...and that adds up. But it just isn't worth the headache to have to figure out how to shuttle everyone to/from the venue.

This may be a minor expense for you, but for some of us smaller promoters it is a big expense. If I use my last negotiation this would have been 20 percent of my budget for one night. To me, that is a lot. Then once again
it also depends on the key word, "Draw," and who the instructor is.

I will try and keep an open mind on this, but whats to say they want a executive suite that costs 300 a night? Where do you put your limits, or do we just pass it on to the attendees and not worry about it? I know this is a silly question but what to say it may not happen?

Only if you are paying someone over $500 a year. I had 2 individuals who wouldn't sign them last year, but luckily I have their emails to prove it and I can submit that as evidence to the IRS that they were uncooperative. This year these forms will be signed in advance. LOL. ..l;,

It is only mandatory reporting for amounts of 500 or more. You can still report for lesser amounts.

When I had my residential cleaning business I had one customer who filed for 150.00. You are able to file for lesser amounts. It only become mandatory for amounts over 500.00. My choice is to CMAO for my tax records and business deductions.

I must say I am enjoying this conversation. Cause many times we have tried to have these discussions and it seems that people just don't want to give their advice. Like there is some sort of trade secret. I use to belong to the Worldwide events organizer group when it first started but it seemed like no one wanted to lend their advice, so I dropped out.

Originally Posted by MariaAya

I just had a horrible weekend with show and workshops.
I was hosting Ousama Emam from Kaoumeya troupe from Cairo to Athens.
Show on Friday night, workshops Saturday 3 hour pop baladi, Sunday 2 hours Nubian, 3 hours Saidi (no cane).

Due to the riots in Athens, on Thusrday night the Theatre of OUR show was occupied by anarchists and on the day of the show they BURNED the stage !!!
So imagine the morning of the show, i picked Ousama from airport and told him the news...... (500 euro lost from advertizing, flyers, radio stations, paying rehearshals musicians etc).

The workshops went better than was I exprected with all the problems (dangerous transformation with burning roads etc).
I had 13 cancelations from out of Athens students, so we had just 15 students in the workshops.
If I wasnt going from the begining for a PROFIT i would have been crying now.
The workshop payed for the lost of the show also.

Was the 8 hours, 120 euro = around 170 $

Its a difficult time nowdays with economy all over the world.
I'm organizing workshops 5 years now, more than 3 per year, and from last year, i see that students prefer to take lessons than come to a workshop.
So at this point i'm canceling the next workshops of February and giving my energy to my classes (12 classes of 1 hour and half per week).
And they asked me to give special workshops on subjects monthly 3 hours, and just clossed booking till April. (for 50 $ = 50 euro) the 3 hour.

I have the general feeling that we are in a turn in bellydance.
Festivals, workshops etc cost more now, and people just dont have the money.

and on the initial question, no the workshop is not expensive.
And many great advice given already

sorry just wanted to vent (and cry a bit)
Maria Aya, Athens Greece

Wow, I am sorry!

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I even put a chocolate mint on the pillows.

Speaking of taxes, workshop instructors need to be given a 1099. Here is a link on info for 1099's What is a 1099 Form? I think this is important if you are going to be claiming workshop expenses on your tax returns. Then you are not responsible for with holding of taxes and you will not have to be looking over your shoulder in case of an audit by the IRS.

1. I am spending the night at your house.

2. Yes 1099's are require for anyone you pay over $600 to .p::

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

This may be a minor expense for you, but for some of us smaller promoters it is a big expense.

I do smaller workshops too, not just the Intensive...so I really do understand. But most of the headliners I chat with these days charge between $150-$250 per hour of teaching time + airfare + accommodations + a fee for the show. By the time it is all said and done, for (2) 3-hour workshops you are looking at $1200 for teaching. At that price, what's another $100 for a room? (and in many places, you can find rooms for a lot less). I ask if they will stay with someone, but if they hesitate then I just bite the bullet and pay for the room.

You need to realize that many of these headliners have horror stories of their own. Sometimes sponsors will do just about anything to save a buck or two...including putting the artists in unsavory places infested with cockroaches. I've had headliners tell me they required a certain "star" rating for a hotel. But as long as you realize that the request might be due to legitimate concerns and not just ego...then you are in a place of power. Every single person I have worked with has complimented me on my professionalism. There are lots of bad hostesses out there. I understand why they wouldn't want to stay in some one's home and why they might want some privacy at the end of the day.

I will try and keep an open mind on this, but whats to say they want a executive suite that costs 300 a night?

Well, because you book the room so you have some control. I've never had a headliner ask for a suite. I have had one person refuse to share a room. Sometimes I ask them to share a room with another headliner to save on costs (2 queen beds, obviously), but I think that's fair. My expenses in Vegas are not cheap. The room rates are great, but I spend a fortune on the convention room. I have to take it all into consideration.

I must say I am enjoying this conversation. Cause many times we have tried to have these discussions and it seems that people just don't want to give their advice. Like there is some sort of trade secret.

Well...I am just not smart enough to keep my mouth shut...LOL. Some of my competitors read everything I write and take all of my ideas...hahahhaha. But oh well. You know what they say about imitation being the most sincere form of flattery. If my competitors raise their standards because of something I'm doing, then it is a win for everyone. Also, I can always come up with new and better ideas and I choose operate from an abundancy perspective. I truly believe there is enough for everyone and that the right people will be attracted to my event. Besides, I'd rather help educate new and potential organizers so they can contribute to the betterment of this market.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Actually it is mandatory for amounts over $500 but you still can report for amount under.

Actually, for both individuals, they made over $500. *sigh*... it was just silliness. No big deal. I have documented and covered my own self, and that is all I needed to do.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

You need to realize that many of these headliners have horror stories of their own. Sometimes sponsors will do just about anything to save a buck or two...including putting the artists in unsavory places infested with cockroaches. I've had headliners tell me they required a certain "star" rating for a hotel. But as long as you realize that the request might be due to legitimate concerns and not just ego...then you are in a place of power. Every single person I have worked with has complimented me on my professionalism. There are lots of bad hostesses out there. I understand why they wouldn't want to stay in some one's home and why they might want some privacy at the end of the day.

Well, because you book the room so you have some control. I've never had a headliner ask for a suite. I have had one person refuse to share a room. Sometimes I ask them to share a room with another headliner to save on costs (2 queen beds, obviously), but I think that's fair. My expenses in Vegas are not cheap. The room rates are great, but I spend a fortune on the convention room. I have to take it all into consideration.

Great points I had not considered. So I guess I will not offer my dogs house? ..l;,

No, I'm pretty sure it's $600
Instructions for Form 1099-MISC (2008)

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Great points I had not considered. So I guess I will not offer my dogs house? ..l;,

Your dog's place might be an improvement compared to some of the stories I've heard...LOL.