Thread: Pricing for workshops

So I'm getting a lot of feedback that my workshop that I'm hosting is expensive. I know it varies per area and such, but I don't really think it's expensive. I'm breaking even IF I get 15 dancers. It includes a show.

The instructor is well know in Boston area and charges $150 per teaching hour.

So it's a 4 hour workshop and I'm charging $70 in advance and $80 at the door. That's a max of $20 per teaching hour per person. Classes around here run $10-$20 each for an hour and a half.

Is this the norm? I try to go $20 per hour for $150 instructor and no more than $30 for $150+.

AND you don't have to drive to Boston, find a hotel, spend gas, etc.


Amity

It depends partly on who the instructor is.

If it's a "flavor of the month" dancer (which I would define as someone who has been teaching on the workshop scene less than 5 years or so), I wouldn't want to pay more than $10-$15 per classroom hour.

If it's a long-time instructor who has been out on the workshop scene for over a decade, who is well known for expertise in the field covered by the workshop, I'll consider $15-$20 per hour.

For example, I would consider paying $20 per classroom hour with Mahmoud Reda, but probably not more than $10 per classroom hour for one of the Bellydance Superstars.

I was considering flying to Philadelphia for Sahra's JTE 1 until I found out how much they were charging. It was exorbitant compared to what other places have charged for it. I then nixed that idea and approached some local dancers about sponsoring her here again instead, which is what I ended up doing.

Hi Shira,

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the problem is that we don't have a large enough dance community to make it cheaper per person. At $150 per hour for most teachers plus space,hotels,performance fees, etc. it's impossible...

I assume this is for the Najmat workshop and I do not think it is too much. I paid a similar amount for another one day workshop I just went to (Joe Paul Williams teaching Delsarte technique); it was SO WORTH IT (beyond worth it!) and I considered myself lucky to get an opportunity to do such a workshop in my rural area with just a 40 minute drive.

On the other hand, I'm struggling with money now in a way that I hadn't for many years. My costs of living have risen dramatically while my employer is also struggling and holding down pay raises. The decisions about what to spend on dance are a LOT harder than they used to be. This sort of thing is going on everywhere and affecting everyone.

So I would say for a workshop with this fabulous dancer the price is not too high. I suspect a lot of what you're hearing in this feedback is about student's ability to pay in a bad economy rather than a real judgement about whether it's a fair price. You are planning and offering this well ahead and giving people time to get the money together, something I appreciate. I for one am definitely planning to pay up and show up! I so admire Najmat and have never had the chance to get any instruction from her.

I of course have SEEN her dance (oh wow, oh wow!). Is it possible that a lot of the potential students in the area you're marketing to just aren't familiar with her? If that's the case and there's any video of her you can link to in your promotions (don't know if there is), it might be helpful. Just a thought.
Rosette

Originally Posted by amity

Hi Shira,

Thanks for the feedback. I guess the problem is that we don't have a large enough dance community to make it cheaper per person. At $150 per hour for most teachers plus space,hotels,performance fees, etc. it's impossible...

I obviously don't know your local dance scene, but I will say that if people perceive a workshop as being too expensive, they won't sign up for it and therefore you'll have limited attendance.

If you're certain that you'd still have small attendance even if the fee were lower, you could always try adding words to your promotional materials along the lines "SMALL class size! No more than 25 attendees accepted!" as a way of justifying/showing the benefit of the higher fee.

Originally Posted by Rosette

I of course have SEEN her dance (oh wow, oh wow!). Is it possible that a lot of the potential students in the area you're marketing to just aren't familiar with her? If that's the case and there's any video of her you can link to in your promotions (don't know if there is), it might be helpful. Just a thought.

She just posted a video to her Facebook account, so perhaps it's also on YouTube now, or could be put on YouTube for marketing purposes.

Najmat is a very well respected dancer in the Boston area. I can attest that a four hour workshop with her will be four solid dense hours of instruction by a top-notch instructor, better than I've had with some national level instructors. In fact, if you want a marketing blurb I'd be happy to provide you with one ..g.:

More on the point of the general question, it's a tough call, balancing what the market will bear with what you need to at least cover your costs. My problem when I sponsor gothic instructors down here in Boston is that I have the numbers of interested people, but space rental is high, so my costs are pretty steep. I think though it's important to hold to what you think is realistic, regardless of what people are saying to you. If you don't at least hope to recover your costs, then what is the point of holding the workshop? (unless of course you just see yourself as your area's benefactress and want to subsidize dancers' educations, but I'm guessing most of us are not in that position)

Amity, I PM'd you.

Deborah

Originally Posted by Rosette

I assume this is for the Najmat workshop and I do not think it is too much. I paid a similar amount for another one day workshop I just went to (Joe Paul Williams teaching Delsarte technique); it was SO WORTH IT (beyond worth it!) and I considered myself lucky to get an opportunity to do such a workshop in my rural area with just a 40 minute drive.

On the other hand, I'm struggling with money now in a way that I hadn't for many years. My costs of living have risen dramatically while my employer is also struggling and holding down pay raises. The decisions about what to spend on dance are a LOT harder than they used to be. This sort of thing is going on everywhere and affecting everyone.

So I would say for a workshop with this fabulous dancer the price is not too high. I suspect a lot of what you're hearing in this feedback is about student's ability to pay in a bad economy rather than a real judgement about whether it's a fair price. You are planning and offering this well ahead and giving people time to get the money together, something I appreciate. I for one am definitely planning to pay up and show up! I so admire Najmat and have never had the chance to get any instruction from her.

I of course have SEEN her dance (oh wow, oh wow!). Is it possible that a lot of the potential students in the area you're marketing to just aren't familiar with her? If that's the case and there's any video of her you can link to in your promotions (don't know if there is), it might be helpful. Just a thought.
Rosette

MWA :)

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I obviously don't know your local dance scene, but I will say that if people perceive a workshop as being too expensive, they won't sign up for it and therefore you'll have limited attendance.

If you're certain that you'd still have small attendance even if the fee were lower, you could always try adding words to your promotional materials along the lines "SMALL class size! No more than 25 attendees accepted!" as a way of justifying/showing the benefit of the higher fee.

Check! Thanks!

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

She just posted a video to her Facebook account, so perhaps it's also on YouTube now, or could be put on YouTube for marketing purposes.

Najmat is a very well respected dancer in the Boston area. I can attest that a four hour workshop with her will be four solid dense hours of instruction by a top-notch instructor, better than I've had with some national level instructors. In fact, if you want a marketing blurb I'd be happy to provide you with one ..g.:

More on the point of the general question, it's a tough call, balancing what the market will bear with what you need to at least cover your costs. My problem when I sponsor gothic instructors down here in Boston is that I have the numbers of interested people, but space rental is high, so my costs are pretty steep. I think though it's important to hold to what you think is realistic, regardless of what people are saying to you. If you don't at least hope to recover your costs, then what is the point of holding the workshop? (unless of course you just see yourself as your area's benefactress and want to subsidize dancers' educations, but I'm guessing most of us are not in that position)

LOL I am such a youtube feen I already saw it :) That's the best thing about her: she said ok when I asked for something besides choreo! I'd rather pay more for a dense workshop than a million choreos I'll never use with one or two movements I may poach.

Maybe you should do a gothic event in NH then :)

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Amity, I PM'd you.

Deborah

Thank-you.

I was a student of Najmat and can also attest that she is a great teacher.

Although I understand where you are coming from, I paid pretty much that amount (I can't remember exactly) for workshops with Aida Nour in October and Mardi Love in Nov. Granted, the workshops were more crowded, but they were also bigger names. This is Chicago, in case you were wondering.

Now that I see you're in NH, to maybe ballpark things, Sonya of Chicago hosts Kimahri (who is at least locally well known and of course, known on these boards :)) at her studio once a month for soloist training. According to her website, there's a min of 7 and a max of 16 students. It costs $22 for 1.5 hours.

Amity, you do what you need to, to make ends meet and don't feel guilty about it.

What I do is calculate travel expenses, meals, instructor's fee, hall rental, liability insurance, music licensing fees, etc. EVERYTHING! Then, I divide it up by the number of people I feel I can reasonably expect to attend.

If more come, then you make a little money - if fewer come, you have to be prepared to cover the difference or cancel the event (leave yourself an out and be prepared to offer refunds if need be).

I think your pricing seems fair. Don't go lower, its just like when we sell ourselves short pricing gigs, once you go lower people will assume they can always negotiate you down. Maybe offer 1 rate for just the workshops & 1 for workshops + show. As someone who's often double/triple booked on weekends I hate when my fees cover the show because I usually run to my next engagement & don't go to shows. Sometimes I don't do a workshop because I don't want to pay for a show that's I'm not going to see.
Make sure to send me your flyer.
Jess

i don't think it's too steep...she is well known and an excellent dancer.

I agree with Nayastrance that offering a 'workshop only' option is a good idea. You might also consider breaking up the workshop into two parts, with people able to attend the first part only, or both. If you do that, you could make individual workshops a few dollars more, but offer a discount for both (and a discount for workshop plus show).

Some people may like to come but simply not have the budget for the whole shebang. Rather than it being too much $/hour, it might be the total $ that they can't afford.

Well in these economic times I've been trying to keep my workshops down to 12.50 hr cost to the students. Especially since I don't know if the instructor has the draw. My break even point was 16 students minimum pre-registrations. At our original contract negotiation. That meant I made no profit and everyone else benefited.

Which was okay with me. It was more important for me to just be sponsoring and getting my name known as a good sponsor. In-fact I am willing to put on the workshop at minimum 12 student enrollment and take about 125.00 loss. Cause it is more important to me to have a reputation as someone who put on a good event.

Now if we had say twenty sign-ups I'm not going say how much I would have made but it would have been sweet very sweet. Unfornately we could not come to terms on a contract and so its not happening.,f::

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

That meant I made no profit and everyone else benefited. Which was okay with me. It was more important for me to just be sponsoring and getting my name known as a good sponsor. In-fact I am willing to put on the workshop at minimum 12 student enrollment and take about 125.00 loss. Cause it is more important to me to have a reputation as someone who put on a good event.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I only wish you the best, but I also want to offer you a different perspective.

If you don't plan for success, then you are a lot less likely to be successful. As a fellow sponsor, it really frustrates me to hear anyone say that they "don't mind breaking even" or they don't mind "taking a loss". Truthfully, it's the equivalent of "undercutting" IMHO (and I doubt you want that sort of reputation).

Why is it that when a dancer is out there working for next to nothing that we all think it is disgraceful, but when an organizer is willing to do all the work for nothing that it is somehow acceptable? I just don't get this. Organizers do sooooo much work. Why shouldn't they be able to make a decent amount of money for the time and energy they invest as well?

When a sponsor is merely willing to break even to get a good name, they run the risk of not properly charging for their event and a whole cascade of issues creep us as a result. It becomes a million times more difficult to raise rates if they are established at the lowest cost possible.

This is the "hot button" issue for me because I work very hard to produce a quality event, but the cost of putting on that event is much higher due to the market I live in. I plan for profit, but truthfully, for the amount of time and energy I invest into the event the ROI is dismally poor. In any other industry, I would be rolling in cash, but in the belly world it's incredibly tough. Every time a sponsor is willing to work for nothing to keep the costs low for his/her attendees...it hurts all the other sponsors out there. I'm not suggesting we gouge the market, but every sponsor should make SOMETHING. Certainly they shouldn't pay to sponsor an instructor.

There are numerous issues with the belly dance business/market. Students are trained to be "cheap"...and invest very little money into their dancing (compared to other dance industries). The "stars" of the belly world charge nearly 4 times what their respective counterparts charge...so the costs are incredibly high. The normal "terms" in this industry constitute a ridiculous business model (I am specifically referring to the notorious 70/30 split) and very often set up organizers to fail.

This isn't a personal attack. So I hope you take these comments in the friendly spirit which they are given. I just want to see more organizers work on creating PROFITABLE events...so that the rest of us can do so as well.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Organizers do sooooo much work. Why shouldn't they be able to make a decent amount of money for the time and energy they invest as well?

I agree.

I think your price is fair. I agree with everyone that you should make a profit for all the work involved. The problems as I see it are 1. that the economy is a mess and most people are all but broke, 2. This event is in early January when many people have spent what little money they had on holiday gifts, and 3. It is an area where the bellydance community is extremely spread out so people have to travel far and the weather is dangerously unpredictable.

I hope that it is a great success for you and that you continue to hold events - you are awesome!

You have to bear in mind that out of the people attending, some people will think it's too expensive, others will think it's a bargain. This would probably still be the case (within reason) for however you priced it.

I specialise in putting on classes in top class venues (mirrors, sprung floors etc), with the best teachers I can find and keeping class numbers low. Even though I don't charge significantly more that people who put 100+ students in a classroom together, I still get the odd person who isn't happy. For example, I recently had a class with 25 students in attendance (yes twenty five), and someone said they thought this was too many! 99% of attendees though are great and appreciate how much effort this all is, plus they feedback on the rare occassions when there is some real issue that I can deal with.

Samira,

I don't feel attacked. Just educated. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Hmmm, makes me think too.

When sponsoring my first workshop, I told myself I'd be happy to break even. Just cause I know I can't think of everything the first time. I'm hoping to get more $$ for my work the next time. By working smarter, not harder, I hope.

As far as pricing goes, I found that I got more people when there was a choice of 2 workshops, and a discount for taking both. Infact, I tend to go to those sorts of workshops myself. Especially if it is also a distance to travel.

Back to the original question: $70-80 is not unreasonable for a 4 hour workshop.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

If you don't plan for success, then you are a lot less likely to be successful. As a fellow sponsor, it really frustrates me to hear anyone say that they "don't mind breaking even" or they don't mind "taking a loss". Truthfully, it's the equivalent of "undercutting" IMHO (and I doubt you want that sort of reputation).

<snip snip>

This isn't a personal attack. So I hope you take these comments in the friendly spirit which they are given. I just want to see more organizers work on creating PROFITABLE events...so that the rest of us can do so as well.

Originally Posted by resullivan

Back to the original question: $70-80 is not unreasonable for a 4 hour workshop.

I would say it depends on who is teaching it. I've paid higher 125.00 five hour workshop, but it was from someone who had the draw and was worth every penny....

Not to mention the 7 hour round trip drive....

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Samira,

I don't feel attacked. Just educated. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Whew...I'm glad. It's never easy to figure out how to communicate online. I'm glad you weren't offended and I'm happy if I've given you a different perspective.

Originally Posted by resullivan

Hmmm, makes me think too. When sponsoring my first workshop, I told myself I'd be happy to break even. Just cause I know I can't think of everything the first time. I'm hoping to get more $$ for my work the next time. By working smarter, not harder, I hope.

Yes...smarter, not harder. I've been producing the Intensive, running monthly haflas, and hosting workshops for 7 years now...and I am still finding nuances that make life easier.

For whatever it is worth, I actually "plan" for a cushion. I write down all the expected expenses and then plan an additional 10% just in case. It has saved me many times...and I still make a profit.

I've only lost money once (but it was under $50, so no big deal) and broke even once (ok, I actually make $4..hahahahahha). Both times it could have been prevented if I had been smarter about terms or some other thing.

If I can't find a way to make something profitable...then I just won't do it. Plan for profit...I think it's a new slogan.

in the seattle area, $15/hour is the minimum you'll pay for just about any workshop, unless it's a local instructor putting something on at a hafla or something. $17.50 is average, $20 is on the higher side (especially if the workshop is for more than 2-3 hours). I've paid more, but it's hard for me to mentally afford more than $25/hour if it's more than a two hour workshop. I recently paid $45 for a 90 minute workshop ($30/hour), and it was worth every penny (thanks, ruby! you're so awesome!).

I'd pay $30/hour for dina or somebody like that, but not for 6-8 hours.

I just had a horrible weekend with show and workshops.
I was hosting Ousama Emam from Kaoumeya troupe from Cairo to Athens.
Show on Friday night, workshops Saturday 3 hour pop baladi, Sunday 2 hours Nubian, 3 hours Saidi (no cane).

Due to the riots in Athens, on Thusrday night the Theatre of OUR show was occupied by anarchists and on the day of the show they BURNED the stage !!!
So imagine the morning of the show, i picked Ousama from airport and told him the news...... (500 euro lost from advertizing, flyers, radio stations, paying rehearshals musicians etc).

The workshops went better than was I exprected with all the problems (dangerous transformation with burning roads etc).
I had 13 cancelations from out of Athens students, so we had just 15 students in the workshops.
If I wasnt going from the begining for a PROFIT i would have been crying now.
The workshop payed for the lost of the show also.

Was the 8 hours, 120 euro = around 170 $

Its a difficult time nowdays with economy all over the world.
I'm organizing workshops 5 years now, more than 3 per year, and from last year, i see that students prefer to take lessons than come to a workshop.
So at this point i'm canceling the next workshops of February and giving my energy to my classes (12 classes of 1 hour and half per week).
And they asked me to give special workshops on subjects monthly 3 hours, and just clossed booking till April. (for 50 $ = 50 euro) the 3 hour.

I have the general feeling that we are in a turn in bellydance.
Festivals, workshops etc cost more now, and people just dont have the money.

and on the initial question, no the workshop is not expensive.
And many great advice given already

sorry just wanted to vent (and cry a bit)
Maria Aya, Athens Greece

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

If I can't find a way to make something profitable...then I just won't do it. Plan for profit...I think it's a new slogan.

I agree, I think this is a winner all around. We organisers deserve to be paid just as much as the venue, the airline, the hotel, the restaurant(s), and the visiting teacher.

If you are doing something that lots of people love, you will earn money for your efforts. If you are doing something that people are indifferent about, or they don't really like, you will break even or loose money.

If you do something that people love, they are happy *and* I'm happy.

Caroline.

Originally Posted by Adishakti

Amity, you do what you need to, to make ends meet and don't feel guilty about it.

What I do is calculate travel expenses, meals, instructor's fee, hall rental, liability insurance, music licensing fees, etc. EVERYTHING! Then, I divide it up by the number of people I feel I can reasonably expect to attend.

If more come, then you make a little money - if fewer come, you have to be prepared to cover the difference or cancel the event (leave yourself an out and be prepared to offer refunds if need be).

First, I don't pay for meals. I think this is an abuse, no matter where you go or even if your at home you have to feed yourself. Why should they deserve free meals? I may consider making exceptions provided that the Workshop Instructor has the draw to fill the workshop. If your not sure they have the draw, I would not pay for meals. This is a hot button for me.

Another dancer posted on a different site and I think am also going to adopt this policy of not paying for travel and lodging expenses with the exception of the draw consideration. Especially when I offer my place to stay at. They can sleep in my comfy bed and I on the couch. If they insist on a hotel then they need to pay for it out of their pocket. I'm a real neat freak so my place is immaculate when it comes to cleanliness. I even put a chocolate mint on the pillows.

As for insurance? The workshop Instructor needs to have their own liability insurance. I know that my insurance will only cover them if they are an employee of mine and that means filling out all the w-2's and withholding taxes. Now if it is a large event/festival that is a different scenario and I would pay that insurance and include it in my cost analysis.

Speaking of taxes, workshop instructors need to be given a 1099. Here is a link on info for 1099's What is a 1099 Form? I think this is important if you are going to be claiming workshop expenses on your tax returns. Then you are not responsible for with holding of taxes and you will not have to be looking over your shoulder in case of an audit by the IRS.