Thread: Spinoff--Dancers taking gigs when in town...

So I started gigging at this restaurant and the owner is a flake. We arranged for New Year's eve and we had a meeting and I made a contract and all that jazz. I tried really hard to make sure I got paid the right rate. It's not as high as I went in there for, but it is a decent rate (read: not undercutting).

So while in negotiations with the owner he asked for another dancer. I said I would look but they had to get paid the same rate as me (as these are my colleagues). He said that would be too high and that he would give me the money and I could split it with them however I wanted. He wanted to pay them about 2/3 of what I am getting. I said that I wouldn't do that and one dancer at my rate would be enough.

Anyway, apparently he "found" another dancer who will work for less money than I will. He said I can still dance for the rate we agreed on, but because I couldn't find another dancer, he found one who will dance for a lower pay. ,m::

I asked who she was and he said she was a dancer from Virginia who is in town visiting family. OMG>>>WTF!!! What is the deal. I mean I shouldn't be that upset because I am still getting my pay that I negotiated, but I feel like I work hard to make sure I get paid and that I don't undercut and someone is doing to that to me...while I be there! Ugh. I am so irritated...

I'm sorry for you :(. So he wants two dancers to work together on the same night?

It feels the VA dancer is setting a bad precedent, because now he knows he can get someone cheaper.

All these problems with undercutting and employers taking advantage of BDers gets me to thinking...maybe we should have a national Bellydancers union. I bet this doesn't happen as much in Egypt (though they have their own different set of problems).

Someone else posted a spinoff thread regarding a similar subject. This is really unfortunate, and I'm sorry it happened to you. I'm glad you haven't given up and refuse to give in and undercut someone else.

I find people who undercut completely unacceptable and rude. And especially this lady who comes from out of town and undercuts in another community! The audacity...really.

Some dancers do go back to their hometown to dance, yes, that's true... but I'd like to know (as I'm sure Andalee would too) if she's a Professional or just a student. Does she understand that she is undercutting? Maybe the owner told her you were getting paid the same amount as she was.

I personally would give the VA dancer the benefit of the doubt - I'd bet she has no idea that she undercut you. I mean, do you really think the restaurant owner told her that he already had one dancer for X pay couldn't get anybody local to dance for less, so would she be interested in dancing for half price?

I'm not saying at all that the situation doesn't suck. is there any way you can get a hold of the dancer before the show? tell the owner you need to coordinate music and costume colors. ;) but she deserves a heads-up for what she's getting into, and it would suck for both of you to have her show up to dance and have the situation be all negative, when otherwise you two might have ended up friends or colleagues...

unless she *IS* an undercutting, fly-by-night suzie nippletassles type. then YOU deserve to know what YOU'RE getting into!

Originally Posted by elisagamal

I personally would give the VA dancer the benefit of the doubt - I'd bet she has no idea that she undercut you.

I'd have to agree here. You also have to consider that the rates in VA are different than your area. (I was shocked to learn that certain large cities paid so little compared to Atlanta.) She could have checked the rates, sure, but if she was in there for dinner one night and was offered the job, she probably didn't have time to check. Restaurant owners are also to blame - it seems like they **try** to find someone to undercut us all the time - just to save a few $$.

Just try to contact her prior to the gig and make sure you take all of your fee - because that is what you and the owner agreed upon.

I would take a big grain of salt with whatever the owner says anyway. You don't know whether he's exaggerating his big savings on the second dancer, and many bargain hunters love to attempt turning dancers against each other.

I would also mention to the second dancer
A) how much you are getting paid, and
B) that the owner had the devil of a time filling the slot that ultimately wound up being hers

(both true, from what I gathered). If I were in that second dancer's shoes I would take that information and use it in future negotiations.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

So while in negotiations with the owner he asked for another dancer. I said I would look but they had to get paid the same rate as me (as these are my colleagues). He said that would be too high and that he would give me the money and I could split it with them however I wanted. He wanted to pay them about 2/3 of what I am getting. I said that I wouldn't do that and one dancer at my rate would be enough.:

A professional she should know to charge double NYE (or most likely in many areas), she should know to find out what the local rates are and she should know to ask around about a gig if there are already other dancers there.
I'd contact her- or try to speak with her that evening...and try to keep it positive.
If she's from northern VA (near the DC area) she REALLY should know those things. Pay standards and professional courtesy are spoken about a lot here (on a yahoo group particularly, though also on tribe etc).

I can't even imagine how frustrated you must be.

If I were in your shoes I'd be angry at the whole situation. For a while. When I settled down, I think I'd focus on the following
1) You negotiated a decent price for the gig.
2) You didn't back down on pay for other local dancers. (for future reference, a second dancer often does cost less than the first, but I'm not sure why -- because she doesn't have to invest the time into selling/negotiating, etc? But in your case, since you didn't get your full asking price in the first place, you were probably right not to discount a second dancer).
3) You've done nothing but work to uphold and raise standards and behave professionally. You can be 100% proud of how you've behaved throughout this negotiation, and you've earned his respect. (otherwise he would have dumped you for the cheaper dancer).

It's hard to blame the restaurant owner. He's trying to run a business, trying to negotiate the best rates he can for himself, and if there's a dancer to be had at the price he wants to pay, it would be a lot to expect him to turn that down. (would you pay $2/gallon for gas if it was available down the street for $1.75? I wouldn't, no matter what ethical arguments the station owner gave me.)

It's also hard to fault the other dancer -- yet -- because we know nothing about her. Is she a student so excited to get her first gig who's never been told the going rate? Or a 20 year veteran who's driven down prices in her own community by dancing for nothing? she might show up in an elegant Eman and dance circles around you, or she might show up in an Airport Special and shake her boobs in people's faces. There's just no way to tell. (unless she's a fellow Bhuzzer who recognizes this situation and chooses to post here or contact you offline to discuss it, of course.)

BUT... since YOU didn't hire her, her behavior is NOT a reflection on you. That's between her and the owner. Your professional obligation is to show up and deliver a great show for the price. If she's very UNprofessional, the restaurant owner will learn heaps about 'getting what you pay for' without the need for any further input from you!

If she's fabulous, I'd do a little damage control by acknowledging that she was lovely afterward and...well... commiserate that it sucks for him that he doesn't happen to own a restaurant in a city with lower rates, I guess! Or maybe congratulate him on getting so lucky and then share a few horror stories about restaurant owners who've hired cheap dancers they weren't familiar with...

I would be mad too....I cant believe the owner did that.....good luck w/ that gig.I have had opportunities for dancing on new years eve, but the restaurant doesnt want to pay a decent price...so I am going to a friends party instead....LOL

Each area of the country has different pay scales and rates. In my state the rates vary GREATLY from one end of the state to the other. Perhaps this other dancer is taking a rate that she is used to but is not the norm for your area. I would be angry for your local community of dancers but I would not take your anger out on the dancer in question.

When the night is over and you are getting out of costume you may want to just let the other dancer know what going rates are in your area in case she returns and is looking to book another job.

I like to give people benefit of the doubt, sadly many area's don't have the community resources or mentors to really hammer home pricing, venue booking and courtesy.

This happened here, sort of. Last year, I showed up to dance New Years eve, under the impression I was the only dancer scheduled, only to be met by another local dancer... I was outraged. In this case, it was not the other dancer's fault--she knew I would be dancing also, but the manager had given her the impression that I knew already and was okay with it. We made the best of the situation that night...

Leap ahead one year...I now make the schedule, and our manager told me "I'd like to have you and dancer XYZ from Atlanta"... I said "Uh...NO." My thought was...why the heck would I dance on a holiday night with another dancer from out of town and make half the tips (this is a tickets-only affair, like last year, and so I know that if it's the same situation the tips will be really pitiful...there's no turnaround!!). So, to avoid a very uncomfortable situation, I turned down the job. Incidentally, this was just last month...and, as I expected, the well-known dancer he was hoping for was already booked. So he ended up hiring a different OUT OF TOWN dancer.... Now, why not book an in-town dancer?? And since then, he's asked me 5 different times if I'm sure I won't be in town (now, of course, I have other plans). Sorry, buddy, should have just hired one dancer (or two local girls at higher rates) in the first place.

Ugh. I understand wanting a new face every now and then, and I support that because of how we're currently structured, but it's still a bit aggravating. However, in none of those cases were the other dancers to blame...they were just responding to requests to dance. And, as far as I know, in this case, they are charging fair prices for the area.

I'm sorry you're pissed and I would feel irritated as well but you're right, you've still got your job, you've still got your pay. But I think the lesson you should take from this is that you can not control how someone else wants to run their business or their dance career. As long as there has been belly dancing there have been flakey owners and undercutting dancers. We like to believe that ultimately the undercutting dancers will lose out because they won't get the respect. I know dancers who have managed to get the cushy position of taking care of the scheduling at restaurants, but most of the time I have to say owners don't like ceding the control and they really don't like it when dancers try to take the control - or singers, or the band. Do your job and do it well. And if you feel so inclined let the other dancer know what the rates are in your area. Hopefully she'll care. :) Happy New Year!

Originally Posted by nadira82

I know dancers who have managed to get the cushy position of taking care of the scheduling at restaurants

I am a dancer who does the scheduling at a restaurant and I can tell you it's anything but cushy. More like a pain in the arse. ..l;,

Originally Posted by stardancer

i am a dancer who does the scheduling at a restaurant and i can tell you it's anything but cushy. More like a pain in the arse. ..l;,

true that!!

wow. this is interesting. I mean, I have looked into bringing workshops to my hometown in PA but...there are no other belly dancers there so...I think it would be safe.

I too would give this VA dancer the benefit of the doubt. Take this opportunity to educate her on the dance community.

i like the vote with your feet response...been doing that myself lately with a troublesome owner..

As usual, Shira hits the nail right on the head. You can't control the other dancer or the restaurant owner. Feel good about yourself, you did the right thing.

If you think this out-of-town dancer is going to become a regular fixture then you should let her know in a polite way what the going rate is.

Having been doing this for awhile, I'll tell you that you really have no control over others. I've danced at gigs where they move off of the professionals that I use for various reasons. Sometimes it's pay, sometimes its because another dancer will dance more in a style they like or because they will wear a sluttier costume, etc. The only thing you can do is stand up for yourself and feel good about you at the end of the day. Undercutting is as old as the hills and nothing will change it.

Just a few years back, there was a huge uproar in Cairo over foreign dancers taking the jobs of Egyptians through undercutting and dance licenses were starting to not be handed out so easily. The threat came, the dancers cleaned up but undercutting is simply everywhere. You can't avoid it.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

This happened here, sort of. Last year, I showed up to dance New Years eve, under the impression I was the only dancer scheduled, only to be met by another local dancer... I was outraged. In this case, it was not the other dancer's fault--she knew I would be dancing also, but the manager had given her the impression that I knew already and was okay with it. We made the best of the situation that night...

Leap ahead one year...I now make the schedule, and our manager told me "I'd like to have you and dancer XYZ from Atlanta"... I said "Uh...NO." My thought was...why the heck would I dance on a holiday night with another dancer from out of town and make half the tips (this is a tickets-only affair, like last year, and so I know that if it's the same situation the tips will be really pitiful...there's no turnaround!!). So, to avoid a very uncomfortable situation, I turned down the job. Incidentally, this was just last month...and, as I expected, the well-known dancer he was hoping for was already booked. So he ended up hiring a different OUT OF TOWN dancer.... Now, why not book an in-town dancer?? And since then, he's asked me 5 different times if I'm sure I won't be in town (now, of course, I have other plans). Sorry, buddy, should have just hired one dancer (or two local girls at higher rates) in the first place.

Ugh. I understand wanting a new face every now and then, and I support that because of how we're currently structured, but it's still a bit aggravating. However, in none of those cases were the other dancers to blame...they were just responding to requests to dance. And, as far as I know, in this case, they are charging fair prices for the area.

Oh honey, I am so sorry that happened to you!

Update on last night:

So the other dancer never showed. I don't know what happened, but I guess she had other plans.

Anyway, that restaurant kinda sucks. Too bad it is the only restaurant in town that hires on a semi-regular basis. The crowd was small and it was basically a party for the restaurant owner and his colleagues.

I made $6 in tips. How insulting. One table I went up to, the guy was like, "I am Greek!" Hmm.

The worst part was that at the end of all this---I didn't even get paid! He said he forgot to get cash and that I'd have to come back on Friday. I was pissed and raised a stink, but there was really nothing I could do about it.

Lesson learned.

At least my beau came and we got to ring in the New Year together with some champagne (well, prosecco). Oh, and I got free shawarma.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Update on last night:

So the other dancer never showed. I don't know what happened, but I guess she had other plans.

Wow. Guess you really do get the level of professionalism you're willling to pay for. There's a story to tell the *next* time someone tells you "I found another dancer who will do it for $X"

Anyway, that restaurant kinda sucks. Too bad it is the only restaurant in town that hires on a semi-regular basis. The crowd was small and it was basically a party for the restaurant owner and his colleagues.

That's a shame. I believe it's possible, if a restaurant has reasonably good food, prices, service, and decor, for a dancer with a following to help them build it up. Experiences like this no-show help you guide and 'train' the owner about hiring pros, and getting your students and friends to come in on dance nights, and helping to spread the word through free calendar listings, posters, flyers, press releases etc. can help build it into something -- especially if there's a dance community or an Arab community (or both!) who would enjoy the dancing.

BUT sometimes it's worth all that effort if there's only one restaurant in town, and sometimes not. You have good marketing skills, Andalee, if there's a market out there to be had, you might be able to help turn this into something. But only if you feel like it's something you're willing to put the time into, cuz it'll probably continue to suck for a while at least.

Maybe it's more of a 'special dance event' venue than an ongoing restaurant venue?

I made $6 in tips. How insulting. One table I went up to, the guy was like, "I am Greek!" Hmm.

The worst part was that at the end of all this---I didn't even get paid! He said he forgot to get cash and that I'd have to come back on Friday. I was pissed and raised a stink, but there was really nothing I could do about it.

Lesson learned.

At least my beau came and we got to ring in the New Year together with some champagne (well, prosecco). Oh, and I got free shawarma.

Happy New Year! Mmmmm... shawarma....

Thanks! LOL! I forgot to mention there was a Magic card guy there who was going up to tables and charging a few buck to do card tricks...He made a lot more money than I did...I saw him as taking my tips. Plus it only takes one or two people to start giving tips before people catch on, but in this case no one started the ball rolling. Wish my friends hadn't flaked out.

That sucks. Do you have a contract or something so he doesn't pretend he never agreed to pay you?

omg. I'm sorry your night didn't go over so well. :(

Glad there was a little light at the end of that tunnel. I sent my husband a text since I was doing my second set after midnight.

Did you wear the pink dress?

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

At least my beau came and we got to ring in the New Year together with some champagne (well, prosecco). Oh, and I got free shawarma.

I got paid! Woo hoo! :) And I wore the blue costume because I am wearing the pink today at my big show!