Thread: Spinoff: Sex and the Bellydancing City

You mean like this bellydancer?

ModelMayhem.com - Brit Ameera - Model - Northeast, US

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

While I can't disagree I would say that Playboy is porn in the same way that carved Greek statues of naked goddesses are porn. They are naked and classically sexy: no sex acts or spreading or anything like that. And I do find stripping to be glamorous and sexy. It might still be about the money but that doesn't negate the former.

Obviously you have not been on the dancer side of stripping. I worked on a documentary many years ago about the strip clubs here in Los Angeles. Even the 'up scale' ones were pretty skivvy. Many of the dancers ended up in drugs and prostitution. One club owner told me that he had found historically that it was a very slippery slop into these areas. And many of them really, really hated men. Now, I admit, this is a generalization. There are women who come out of exotic dancing unscathed, but in my experience, this is not the rule.

And don't get me wrong about Playboy. I know more than one photographer for them and have had the opportunity to photograph for them - once again a million years ago. In general, Playboy nudes are very artsy - esque. But I still find the motivation behind photographing naked and near naked women for mass consumption and the depictation of classical allegories to be at opposite ends of the spectrum.

But, to each their own perception.

{{{HUGS}}}

I don't find stripping to be glamorous. I've spent a lot of time in strip joints around here with my best friend who is basically the 'dance scheduler'. Men there have a hard time keeping their hands off from what I've seen, drug abuse and etc...and one night one of the girls stabbed another one out of jealousy, trying to pop her implant. I've known strippers as well, and they have told me some scary stories, some of which I don't even want to recount online.

I think sometimes it's "different strokes for different folks".

Here's a clip from a dancer I know from California doing a show at one of those "gentlemen's clubs". It was something different for her. I don't think she hurt her career - she recently did a short stint with the Belly Dance Super Stars.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMLwW_Pepo]YouTube - Sabrina Fox at Dreamgirls[/ame]

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

You mean like this bellydancer?

ModelMayhem.com - Brit Ameera - Model - Northeast, US

That girl's in my neighborhood and she's really nice, and I've noticed some major growth in her dance abilities over the past year. But I can't ignore the way she integrates her risque modeling with bellydancing. She made her myspace profile private but in the past it was one of the first things that showed up under "cleveland bellydance" which bothered me.

I don't have a problem with a bellydancer doing some nude modelling (especially if it's tasteful art) or for that matter stripping or doing pornos or whatever. but if it's mixed in with bellydance, I do have a little problem with it. Just keep the two lives separate

Originally Posted by humdinger70

I think sometimes it's "different strokes for different folks".

Here's a clip from a dancer I know from California doing a show at one of those "gentlemen's clubs". It was something different for her. I don't think she hurt her career - she recently did a short stint with the Belly Dance Super Stars.

YouTube - Sabrina Fox at Dreamgirls

Intersting.

I'm really enjoying this thread and reading everyone's opinions and seeing what people on Bhuz think.

I am especially curious about this youtube clip... It's been drilled into my/our heads forever "Do not bellydance in a "Gentleman's Club" or you will single handedly defile the artform"

But I don't think she did ANYTHING in that clip that was sleezy or something one would not perform for other dancers in the community at a hafla or performance. The costuming was maybe slightly sexy (were those thigh high stockings she was wearing?) but I've seen more scantially clad dancers performing on stage before...

So why the venue stigma? Do you think she did something wrong by performing there?

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

So why the venue stigma? Do you think she did something wrong by performing there?

First of all, a Gentleman's Club maintains an atmosphere that says that the dancing is for the male gaze. That alone affects any dance form that's done there.

Also, I think that no one will believe that you didn't strip w/o video proof. Or at the very least, that you didn't behave inappropriately. But also, it's like being a waitress at a strip joint - in people's minds it's going to be different than being a waitress at TGI Fridays.

Well the clip was pretty short; you don't know what happened off camera. I'll assume she didn't strip. I heard several tribal yips in the background so it sounds like she brought friends along for support. But people go to gentleman's clubs to see boobs so I don't know how a performance like that would go over. At best I picture something like flashdance where the dancer incorporates some artwork in her dancing but the vast majority of clubs just want you to take it off.

Originally Posted by Safiyah

But people go to gentleman's clubs to see boobs

i donno if that's 100% correct. i guess it would depend on the place and people, but from what i understood (from a thing on tv),what they're looking for is more sexy and entertaining. i'd think a bellydancer balancing a sword fits those criteria, without needing to strip. she dressed herself up to the occasion (heels and stockings) but i think that + the moves and the sword balancing are all the spicy sexiness that'd be needed

hmm, not in my 'hood. I've spent some time around men who go to these clubs and they're not looking for entertaining...well, I guess they are, but they're looking to be entertained by boobs :/ maybe there's a niche out there for people who prefer more content...

Originally Posted by Safiyah

hmm, not in my 'hood. I've spent some time around men who go to these clubs and they're not looking for entertaining...well, I guess they are, but they're looking to be entertained by boobs :/ maybe there's a niche out there for people who prefer more content...

Agreed. I've been to a few strip clubs and let's just say nobody is there to admire the subtle sensuality and artistry of the dancers. It's like the people who say they read Playboy for the articles...

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Agreed. I've been to a few strip clubs and let's just say nobody is there to admire the subtle sensuality and artistry of the dancers. It's like the people who say they read Playboy for the articles...

HEY! I read playboy for the articles!

I have a couple of vintage Playboys (late 60s/early 70s ones) and back in those days, anyway, they weren't a lot more *than* articles, plus short stories, often by quite famous writers. The articles were hardly ever about sex - like the letters pages, they were heavy on the politics and the evil machinations of The Man. The pictorial/centrefold content probably isn't more than ten pages, and they're fairly solid mags.

I don't know how much it's changed.

I can't remember where I read it, though I think Paul Monty's thesis alludes to it and I've seen other comments from old-time dancers that imply this too, but as I understand it, once topless bars and things became legal, the trade in belly dance fell off dramatically. That indicates to me that quite a lot of people were going to see belly dancers because they were hawt sexy chicks not wearing much.

A belly dancer isn't really going to go down that well in your average strip club these days, I don't think.

I can only speak for my own experiences but EVERY man I have ever known who has gone to a strip bar is not there to see the beautiful dancing. All be it, some of them are cleaner, have better dancers (actually require that they can keep a beat) but even when I was there with them and commented on the fact that the girl was not actually dancing, that she was just walking around taking off clothing their reply was "yea, but check out her tits!" They could care less about the dancing, it is more about the stripping. Again, there may be men out there who would prefer to see a real dancer but I have never met them.

I think that the more "classy" stuff that was referred to like in France is really only prevalent in places like Vegas here in the US and Vegas has a whole set of rules that don't apply to the rest of the country so I don't know if that could really be pulled off anywhere else.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I have a couple of vintage Playboys (late 60s/early 70s ones) and back in those days, anyway, they weren't a lot more *than* articles, plus short stories, often by quite famous writers. The articles were hardly ever about sex - like the letters pages, they were heavy on the politics and the evil machinations of The Man. The pictorial/centrefold content probably isn't more than ten pages, and they're fairly solid mags.

I don't know how much it's changed.

There are still articles but loads of glossy nudes. All be it not spread'em shots but pics none the same.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

Again, there may be men out there who would prefer to see a real dancer but I have never met them.

If I went to a strip club that did nothing to advertise there was somthing different and I sat down with my momey and my vodka cran and saw a stage show that was NOT stripping but was rather a belly dance show or a, gosh, i don't know, spoken word piece... well I'd actually be thrilled, but I can see how everyone else in the bar would be POed.

But if I approached a strip club about renting out their stage for a night and proceeded to stage and plan an evening of bellydance and singing and spoken word and whatever else, and advertised it as such, wouldn't that draw the crowd that might be sincerely interested in watching some dance and not just boobies. And if you stressed that there would be NO NUDITY it would not interest the people who honestly just want to stare at a girls boobs

I think that the more "classy" stuff that was referred to like in France is really only prevalent in places like Vegas here in the US and Vegas has a whole set of rules that don't apply to the rest of the country so I don't know if that could really be pulled off anywhere else.

And France seems to have a much more liberal attitude towards nudity and sex than the US does. Perversely, for all the boobs and hawt sexy ladies in US popular culture, I think the reason they're there is because the overall cultural feeling is that sex is naughty and wrong. (See also England.)

Although French films are often reeeeaaalllly long and talky, I love their sex scenes because they're so normal. There's no cunning angling away from dangly bits, body hair is usually present and characters who are sleeping together do radical things like walk around in front of each other unselfconsciously naked.

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

But if I approached a strip club about renting out their stage for a night and proceeded to stage and plan an evening of bellydance and singing and spoken word and whatever else, and advertised it as such, wouldn't that draw the crowd that might be sincerely interested in watching some dance and not just boobies. And if you stressed that there would be NO NUDITY it would not interest the people who honestly just want to stare at a girls boobs

I can seriously not envision that happening at any of the strip joints here, even the upscale ones. We have a veritable Shangri-La of strip clubs located just across the river from St. Louis, and locally it is known as The Place to Go See Naked Ladies. No one would ever associate those places with quality artistic entertainment. And if someone were to try to put on a quality dance show at one of these places, the GP in this area would be generally dumbfounded and probably STILL expect to see naked ta tas and more simply because of the geographic location.

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

But if I approached a strip club about renting out their stage for a night and proceeded to stage and plan an evening of bellydance and singing and spoken word and whatever else, and advertised it as such, wouldn't that draw the crowd that might be sincerely interested in watching some dance and not just boobies. And if you stressed that there would be NO NUDITY it would not interest the people who honestly just want to stare at a girls boobs

But why would you do that when you could rent a theater, school, studio, or practically anything else? It would be a totally inappropriate venue. And how many strip club patrons are checking the community bulletin board to be sure there's going to be naked women in their club?

And how many of the general public don't even notice terrible belly dancing b/c the girl is pretty enough? I know I've heard it more than once. I'm sure they're not going to worry too much if stripper isn't executing perfect technique.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

But why would you do that when you could rent a theater, school, studio, or practically anything else? It would be a totally inappropriate venue. And how many strip club patrons are checking the community bulletin board to be sure there's going to be naked women in their club?

Certianly, but... not every school, or studio, or stage is going to be interested.

For example, there is a chocolate shop/ porn store in the area that every so often holds a "Sexy party." There are burlesque striptease dancers, dramatic readings of "dear penthouse" letters, sex toy demos, chocolate, candy, and are a lot of fun. I've known people to do bellydance at these performances (as well as belly/burly fusion) which have been tasteful and as well received as any other performance. However this is not the sort of performance that you can ask your local elementary school or community rec center to get behind.

but a strip club? Well, that might actually be the perfect venue: there is a stage, lighting, music system, as well as room for vending and a bar and room for people to get up and dance and mingle.

Of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate here....

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

And how many of the general public don't even notice terrible belly dancing b/c the girl is pretty enough? I know I've heard it more than once. I'm sure they're not going to worry too much if stripper isn't executing perfect technique.

I've heard restaurant owners saying to bookers that they want a bellydancer to perform and they don't care if she is not a good dancer, as long as they are very beautiful!

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

Certianly, but... not every school, or studio, or stage is going to be interested.

For example, there is a chocolate shop/ porn store in the area that every so often holds a "Sexy party." There are burlesque striptease dancers, dramatic readings of "dear penthouse" letters, sex toy demos, chocolate, candy, and are a lot of fun. I've known people to do bellydance at these performances (as well as belly/burly fusion) which have been tasteful and as well received as any other performance. However this is not the sort of performance that you can ask your local elementary school or community rec center to get behind.

but a strip club? Well, that might actually be the perfect venue: there is a stage, lighting, music system, as well as room for vending and a bar and room for people to get up and dance and mingle.

Of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate here....

That's a very different venue. You specifically stressed no nudity. You could probably find a nightclub that has all the same amenities and would actually be interested in an event like that. People who show up at a strip club don't come for the advertised artistic events, they come to check out the scenery. And what strip club would be interested in hosting a tasteful sexy event when they can make loads more with nudity and their regular nightly clientele?

Strip clubs are not about art, or sexy entertainment. They're naked dancing and money. So yes, if your show has the naked erotic element, I'm sure you could find a strip club interested. But if it's just a bunch of clothed artists, no matter how sexy they may be in those clothes, you're going to have some pissed of strip club patrons.

And if you were worried about having two separate careers, just wait to see what people have to say about belly dancing in the club itself.

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

I've heard restaurant owners saying to bookers that they want a bellydancer to perform and they don't care if she is not a good dancer, as long as they are very beautiful!

I have seen amazingly talented women lose their jobs over appearance.

I think quite a lot of porn shops are deliberately designed to be "woman-friendly" and in those ones, a belly/burly/saucy evening would work. Strip club =/= "friendly" porn shop, or even creepy man porn shop.

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

Certianly, but... not every school, or studio, or stage is going to be interested.

For example, there is a chocolate shop/ porn store in the area that every so often holds a "Sexy party." There are burlesque striptease dancers, dramatic readings of "dear penthouse" letters, sex toy demos, chocolate, candy, and are a lot of fun. I've known people to do bellydance at these performances (as well as belly/burly fusion) which have been tasteful and as well received as any other performance.

Of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate here....

See, here is the difference: the sex shop is sponsoring the event. It's fun and kitchy. And it doesn't usually make it's money from dancing ladies. The strip club / gentlemans club, does make it's money from dancing ladies.

If you want to hold an event in a 'perfect' venue, in most towns there are generally some great clubs with the aforementioned amenities. I'd check them out first.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by meena_oasis

If I may throw in my two cents here...

As a Bellydancer who has an Arabic mother and who has lived in the Middle East, I believe that there really is a difference, subtle tho it may be at times, in how dancers are viewed in the East vs West.

Yes, Western men can be just as insensitive and dirty minded as any, but I have found that it is not always an AUTOMATIC thought that Bellydancer equals stripper or prostitute. Sometimes seems to be more of a, "I really hope she is, that has always been a fantasy of mine!" Niiiice,m:: Other times? Yeah, just the usual ignorant, sexist garbage.

Eastern culture, however, DOES lean far heavier into the idea that if you are a Bellydancer and as such allow men other than your husband to see you dance, you are, most likely a woman of loose or looser morals and probably see no difference YOURSELF in how much clothing you are wearing or how provacatively you dance.
Also, at times, there seems to be a stubborn refusal to believe or accept, even if shown, that it is actually possible for a woman to be JUST a Bellydancer.

Yes, there exceptions to every rule. There are some wonderfully open minded people in any and all culture. Not sayin otherwise. But......c::

This has been my experience as well. That is one reason why it's very rare for an American belly dancer to marry into an Arab family unless he's a musician. Musicians are often treated with a lack of respect as well.

But to answer the original question, I think it would depend on what type of venue you wanted to work in. In Detroit, almost all the work is with Arabs and Chaldeans. If it was known that you were a stripper you wouldn't last long. Several years ago, a stripper turned belly dancer tried to make it. Of course many of the Arabic male customers, often frequented the strip clubs. Rumor quickly spread. She became very popular at certain clubs and with a certain clientele but NOT at the more family oriented places. Needless to say, she was a one year wonder.

In my community at least, reputation is very important. Often singers and musicians would hire me for their family events because they knew they could rely on me to put on a good show and act like a lady and not embarrass their families. There are always the jerk owners and customers who think all dancers are strippers and prostitutes. But if you act like a lady, treat people with respect , are reliable, and show up with superb dance skills you will be respected.