Thread: Spinoff: Sex and the Bellydancing City

This is a spinoff about the sleezy phone call Amber got the other day. I read a lot of the posts and they all said the same thing "We don't dance at strip clubs or other 'risque' places because our reputation will be damaged and we won't get gigs"

And I totally understand that. I think it sucks, because you ought to be able to dance anywhere you'd like without the morality police busting down your door, but thats the way it is and there is no fighting it.

But what about when you are not being "a bellydancer." Is it possible to have some sort of sexualized career path and be a bellydancer as well?

For example, (and this really IS a hypothetical) I bellydance. I really love dancing and i love the sensual feeling and positive body image I get from dancing. So I start taking other forms of dance. Ballet, salsa. Well, I'm never going to be a ballet star considering i'm already too old, but maybe I get really good at it all the same. Then I think, you know something? Maybe I want to go work at a topless bar or a exotic dance club. So I do. Have I ruined my chances of still performing as a belly dancer? Because I bet I would still be able to perform in the student ballet recitals all the same.

Obviously I will not be "belly dancing' at said club. I would be stripping. I wouldn't wear my dance costuming, just like I woudn't wear my ballet tutu. Can there be a difference? Or have you found society cannot make the distinction between "dancing for men's clubs" dancer and "dancing for the public" dancer. Because I know *I* woudn't be doing the same thing for both audiences.

Im PMing you.

I think there's something of a temptation in that story, considering that if you love to dance that's the only sure way to get paid to do it on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, so much more than dancing is involved with that kind of job.

I know of belly dancers who have followed this trajectory. I don't know what the professional impact was for them, or the personal impact. For me, feeling sensual and sexy would not occur in the strip club because that kind of atmosphere would make me feel very uncomfortable. I don't like the kind of sexual energy in many of those places. But that said I think there is far too much prudery and judgement by the belly dance community. So when I say I wouldn't dance in a strip club as a belly dancer because of my reputation, I'm serious. The Arabs I work with would never see me as family entertainment again lol. But that's not really the real reason. The real reason is that I want to work in environments where I feel comfortable and can represent what I see as a positive sexuality. And I don't see that happening in a strip club. As a belly dancer. For me.

I am just reminded, again, of how much all of these issues are Personal Decisions. We try to claim "community" to make "rules" for each other, but different people have different boundaries. We use these domino effect arguments to criticize dancers who make any range of choices that other belly dancers think are bad, from showing too much thigh to taking tips in the belt to maybe dancing in a strip club. But what is really at fault if the GP equates BD with stripping? (Which I think is an overstatement.) We live in one of the most sexualized cultures in the world where women are equated through their bodies with sexuality. Period. As belly dancers who work with our bodies we will never get away from that, it is a part of our jobs. And the solution is not to judge and criticize other people's choices but to know our OWN boundaries and maintain those.

Would "we" as a "community" lose something if Amber or I had taken a job dancing in a strip club? I don't think so. I think most people know that belly dancing is not stripping. But would Amber have lost something in herself if she had taken that job? THAT is the more important question.

(Sorry Sarai I'm a little off topic here, but thanks for the forum, I think it's a good question.)

I think someone will always hold it against you. That's not a good enough reason to not do it, but it's something to consider. As soon as someone wanted to discredit you they would (unfairly) jump all over that.

A person could carve out the two separate careers, and I'm sure someone has. It would probably be difficult though. I don't know how much the GP would figure into the equation, unless they saw you doing both jobs and recognized you.

ETA: By difficult I mean dealing with the rumors and judgment and possible barring from some venues.

Originally Posted by nadira82

I am just reminded, again, of how much all of these issues are Personal Decisions. We try to claim "community" to make "rules" for each other, but different people have different boundaries. We use these domino effect arguments to criticize dancers who make any range of choices that other belly dancers think are bad, from showing too much thigh to taking tips in the belt to maybe dancing in a strip club.

Would "we" as a "community" lose something if Amber or I had taken a job dancing in a strip club? I don't think so. I think most people know that belly dancing is not stripping. But would Amber have lost something in herself if she had taken that job? THAT is the more important question.

This is a really interesting way of looking at this. For the record, I'm not at the moment actually considering a job as a stripper, per se, but the thought has always been in the back of my mind. I don't see expression of sexuality as a 'shameful' thing. I know a lot of people are not comfortable with the idea of being naked for male entertainment, but the thought does not disgust me or deter me. But I've wrestled a lot with nude photography. Not pornography... more like playboy nudes. What if I decided to do that? Would my dance suffer? No. But would people THINK that it had? Perhaps.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

I think someone will always hold it against you. That's not a good enough reason to not do it, but it's something to consider. As soon as someone wanted to discredit you they would (unfairly) jump all over that.

This is true in most things, I suspect. But let me ask you this: do you think the shunning would be more from the GP or from the other dancers? I would think the GP might have less at stake and therefore would be less likely to care if Mr. X saw me at TaTa's Teasers one week and then at his Work Xmas party the next. Obviously, if he has ANY sense, he will not ask me to strip while his boss and co-workers are seated with him.

Personally, I don't think 'society' would ever know you're doing both unless you tell them.

I've known a fair number of strippers in my life. (I live near the area that serves most of the St. Louis stripclub needs, and I used to tend bar, so....)

If they're open about what they do for a living they face a lot of judgment. You can argue til the cows come home about whether that's fair or not, it's a fact. Their families, neighbors, grocery store clerks, kids' teachers, other soccer moms etc. judge them for their career choice all day long. I actually think the other bellydancers would be a freckle *less* judgmental than average, because I find bellydancers to be more openminded than average in general.

If you were dragging their art onto a strip stage, they might lynch you. Otherwise, I think their reaction would be typical or better than typical.

I don't want to flame anyone or get flamed, so I'll keep this reply fairly vague. In one city I used to dance in, several of the "regulars" at the ME clubs were also regulars at some of the strip bars--a couple even owned strip bars. That sent home a clear message to me that I will always remember--NEVER EVER cross that line if I want to be taken seriously as a belly dancer (or any other profession you may be in). You may not know who is seeing you in that context until it is too late. If you're ok with people knowing about it, then fine. But if you at all have reservations about someone seeing you (be it in the BD community, your family, your other personal or professional like), then don't do it.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I actually think the other bellydancers would be a freckle *less* judgmental than average, because I find bellydancers to be more openminded than average in general.

If you were dragging their art onto a strip stage, they might lynch you. Otherwise, I think their reaction would be typical or better than typical.

I'm not sure I agree with this. How many times have we heard "she looks like a stripper" used as an insult when one dancer is denigrating another's ability/performance/costuming.

Also I think because we are constantly trying to prove to the GP that we are not strippers we seem to voraciously put down and denounce the stripping profession in order to distance ourselves from it.

But I hope this thread keeps going I am interested in reading other people's opinions on this issue.

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

This is true in most things, I suspect. But let me ask you this: do you think the shunning would be more from the GP or from the other dancers? I would think the GP might have less at stake and therefore would be less likely to care if Mr. X saw me at TaTa's Teasers one week and then at his Work Xmas party the next. Obviously, if he has ANY sense, he will not ask me to strip while his boss and co-workers are seated with him.

I agree with you. I think if a member of the GP did see you in both, it wouldn't necessarily bother him. He may make some associations or assumptions, but I don't think he would picket.

I think your real issues are going to come from other dancers and possibly restaurant owners if you're going to have any issues at all. Also, if your family and friends had a problem with it, I wonder if they might see belly dancing as the gateway to stripping?

Bravo Nadira!

Over the years, I have known a number of women who STARTED as strippers (even one dominatrix), and later took belly dance classes and became belly dancers. I'm even aware of a dancer who was a big porno movie star in addition to being a belly dancer.

In every case, these women kept their belly dance lives entirely separate from their adult-entertainment lives. They generally didn't let people they met through belly dance know about their adult-entertainment careers, but after they got to know me well enough to be friends they confided it. Every one of them was responsible about not using belly dance costumes or moves in her adult-entertainment work and vice versa. I don't think the dual careers were harmful to any of them, but that's probably partly because of their keeping the two separate.

One of the women mentioned in the above paragraph was a classmate of mine, back in my student days. Our teacher found out that she was a working stripper, and from that day forward there were periodic disparaging comments made out of the classmate's earshot about her being a stripper, especially the time she came to class immediately after doing a strip-o-gram and was still wearing her vinyl bustier, vinyl hot pants, and handcuff earrings.... I shrugged off the comments because I thought the classmate was lovely to watch when she was belly dancing - her rolls and flutters were particularly amazing. And her belly dancing was always ladylike.

Couple of thoughts off the top of my head:

Playboy is pornography. While mild for it's genre, it fits the definition.

Stripping is not glamorous or about being sensual and sexy. It's about sex and money.

There are exotic / erotic dancers who use belly dance and harem fantasy as part of their shtick. We are never going to stop that.

As Shira said, if some one is a stripper / topless waitress / etc. and a belly dancer, as long as she keeps it separate, I don't see any problem with this. I know two dancers here in LA who do both and it is a discussion they and I have had. One asked me why when she got belly dance requests she also was asked if she took off her clothes. I suggested she separate her myspace accounts into two - one for belly dance and one for everything else. It helped.

{{{HUGS}}}

I think it depends a lot on the place you live in, but to be simultaneously a stripper/lapdancer/prostitute and a pro BDer would be risky, precisely *because* there is a teeny tiny bit of crossover. Because a BDer is seen as exotic and a bit sexy, but not too risque for family events, she' can be like the family-friendly end of the sex industry. And some customers will of course be interested in the non-family-friendly end.

Put it this way: I *might* be able to get work dancing in a strip club in my town, though I also might be too old and fat, I don't know. But in addition to the fact that I teach BD to nice ladies and men, at a school with childrens' classes, and emphasise that it's a nice wholesome activity, my family also lives here. The chances of a student, or her husband or brother in law seeing me dance at a strip club that they'd visited for fun is on the high side. The chances of one of my brothers' sleazy friends seeing me is even higher. And my town is a gossipy town. So for me personally, it would be far too risky.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

I'm not sure I agree with this. How many times have we heard "she looks like a stripper" used as an insult when one dancer is denigrating another's ability/performance/costuming.

Also I think because we are constantly trying to prove to the GP that we are not strippers we seem to voraciously put down and denounce the stripping profession in order to distance ourselves from it.

But I hope this thread keeps going I am interested in reading other people's opinions on this issue.

I don't mind if we disagree, but I don't think we do. I never said bellydancers would think it was awesome!

But I think you'd hear just as many 'she looks like a stripper' comments -- if not more! -- from preschool teachers and librarians if someone were dancing in a sleazy way.

I also think a preschool teacher, psychologist or small town mayor would be taking a huge risk by having a stripping career on the side. I think it's highly risky for a bellydancer, too -- but not *more* risky.

I would not try to do both if I were a dancer; but that is just my feeling. Seems like it would undercut the work that goes on to prove to people that bellydancers are not stippers. Even though it shouldn't need to be that way, a lot of people are either ignorant about what bellydancing is or they are very familiar with it b/c of culture and would look badly at it for that reason.

And I know around my area (in VA) we are in Pat Robertson's neighborhood, riding the bible belt. And although I'm not a religious person, I'm in the minority here. I know the dancers here (I believe Taaj on was of the main ones involved) had to prove to the state that bellydancing was not stripping b/c it involved dancing for tips and taking off a piece of clothing (the veil), if I remember the story correctly. And the strippers here still don't actually strip, we just have ladies in swimsuits dancing essentially at strip clubs here. Plus you cannot tuck money into the clothing of a dancer (bellydancer or stipper here) by law. So there is already a thin line in these parts, you could have two women, one in a swimsuit, one in a sparkly swimsuit with some sort of skirt; both dancing for tips that cannot be tucked into their clothing. (That is overly simplistic-- not counting a big style difference, but to the uneducated, that could be the appearance) So the area plays a part of it as well. I could see someone in LA getting away with more than a dancer here might.

I got a call form a guy today who hired me for a party a couple of weeks ago. The party was good, all Iraqis, everyone happy.

Today he calls and asks me if I know any strippers. I said, no I'm sorry I don't know any. Then we played the game of him asking me repeatedly and I am answering the same thing with more details, because he wasn't getting it.
"Oh I thought that maybe you know any.." "Oh I thought I would call you that maybe there are some strippers that you know" HUH??
I think he didn't want to say it but thought that since I am a belly dancer, it is so close to being to a stripper, I probably know some.

My last response was: no I'm sorry, I don't. I know a lot of belly dancers, but none of the people I know are strippers. The he laughed because he got the emphasis.

It was so stupid. He didn't insult me per se, but I know what was behind it. Needless to say he was Chaldean.

I also got a call for a guy - last week - for a bachelor party. This happens once in a blue moon, although my website clearly states not to call me for that (and this guys said he saw my site). But this guy kept asking as if I was too shy to say yes. I explained to him what the deal is, and told him not to even waste his time to call belly dancers (and not waste their time) because none of them would do it.
As a last effort he asked: so you don't do any nude belly dancing?

Again, he didn't mean to insult me, so I didn't take it as that. He was just being a guy looking for entertainment for bachelors. But ick! twice already this year (week) alone. As a matter of fact he was my first call this year; I said to myself: what a great way to start 2009!

Originally Posted by Marianna

It was so stupid. He didn't insult me per se, but I know what was behind it. Needless to say he was Chaldean.

Why is that "needless to say?" I don't understand the connection you're making.

Is there a difference between this and, say, dancing as a bellydancer in a burlesque show? I'm thinking there must be a relation.

this is a little random.
with regards to something Nadira said:
"For me, feeling sensual and sexy would not occur in the strip club because that kind of atmosphere would make me feel very uncomfortable. I don't like the kind of sexual energy in many of those places."
ok, so that's strip clubs.
but what about places like the Crazy Horse, the Lido, or the Moulin Rouge? (i donno if there are any equivalents in the US or elsewhere to these Paris establishments. maybe it's just a parisian thing to do... lol)
the atmosphere in these places is totally different to strip clubs. it's classy. really. the dancing is classy, the shows are done in really good taste. you just happen to be naked ^^ (or rather, with VERY little on)

that's just a thought. cos we're always talking about strip clubs, cos they're the most obvious sexually orientated dance, which bellydance is always connected with in the mind of so many people. but there are other places where sexually orientated dance is done in a totally different atmosphere. (i'm saying 'sexually orientated' because in the two places mentioned the dancing is done naked-or-nearly, and though bellydance isn't done naked, we all know how some of the moves definitely remind people of sexuality)

i was just wondering what people's opinion on that matter were.
personally, as much as i probably would never work in a strip club, i wouldn't cross off the Crazy Horse or the likes. i wouldn't bellydance there, but the classy sensuality of it doesn't scare me off as the stripclub atmosphere would.

The connection I was trying to make was that he Chaldean guy was form "over there" the Middle East, where they do think if you're a belly dancer, you might be up for other stuff. I think, generally they do understand that in the Western world it's not like that, you're a belly dancer and nothing else. That's why I was shocked, I never had this type of comment/question form any one before.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I look down on Chaldeans - I love them, a do a lot of gigs for them, so that's definitely not the case. The only thing I meant was that he was from over there - grew up there with the mentality of belly dancer = stripper. I didn't mean to be offensive.

The Chaldean guy was form "over there" the Middle East, where they do think if you're a belly dancer, you might be up for other stuff.

Yeah, cos no Western guy has ever made that assumption.

feeling sensual and sexy would not occur in the strip club because that kind of atmosphere would make me feel very uncomfortable. I don't like the kind of sexual energy in many of those places

I think this is an interesting comment because it reflects a kind of belief, that I also see coming out of people talking about their desire to do burlesque etc, that performing sexuality in a public place is going to be all about them and their desires, about exhibitionism. Being an actual stripper is a job and you don't get to not do it because you don't feel sexy that day. Same as a pro dancer can't say "oh I'm just not feeeeling it tonight, I shall stay home till the audience is a bit more appreciative."

I think BD is sensual and sexual and all those good things, but I do not feel that I am soooo hot right now when I'm performing.

Originally Posted by _Sarai_

But what about when you are not being "a bellydancer." Is it possible to have some sort of sexualized career path and be a bellydancer as well?

There is a dancer in the 'Burgh who successfully did that - I have no idea what her current situation may be, though, it was many years ago that she talked about that. I don't recall too much of that conversation, but maybe you could ask her for her experiences and insights? PM me.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Yeah, cos no Western guy has ever made that assumption.

Thats precisely what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Playboy is pornography. While mild for it's genre, it fits the definition.

Stripping is not glamorous or about being sensual and sexy. It's about sex and money.

While I can't disagree I would say that Playboy is porn in the same way that carved Greek statues of naked goddesses are porn. They are naked and classically sexy: no sex acts or spreading or anything like that. And I do find stripping to be glamorous and sexy. It might still be about the money but that doesn't negate the former.

Originally Posted by Kathiya

this is a little random.
with regards to something Nadira said:
"For me, feeling sensual and sexy would not occur in the strip club because that kind of atmosphere would make me feel very uncomfortable. I don't like the kind of sexual energy in many of those places."
ok, so that's strip clubs.
but what about places like the Crazy Horse, the Lido, or the Moulin Rouge? (i donno if there are any equivalents in the US or elsewhere to these Paris establishments. maybe it's just a parisian thing to do... lol)
the atmosphere in these places is totally different to strip clubs. it's classy. really. the dancing is classy, the shows are done in really good taste. you just happen to be naked ^^ (or rather, with VERY little on)

This is a better way of looking at it. Not stripping then, but doing a Cabaret show. Pasties and G-Strings and a full scale, completely professional dance and music show. Does this somehow change your opinons?

Originally Posted by Marianna

The connection I was trying to make was that he Chaldean guy was form "over there" the Middle East, where they do think if you're a belly dancer, you might be up for other stuff. I think, generally they do understand that in the Western world it's not like that, you're a belly dancer and nothing else. That's why I was shocked, I never had this type of comment/question form any one before.

If I may throw in my two cents here...

As a Bellydancer who has an Arabic mother and who has lived in the Middle East, I believe that there really is a difference, subtle tho it may be at times, in how dancers are viewed in the East vs West.

Yes, Western men can be just as insensitive and dirty minded as any, but I have found that it is not always an AUTOMATIC thought that Bellydancer equals stripper or prostitute. Sometimes seems to be more of a, "I really hope she is, that has always been a fantasy of mine!" Niiiice,m:: Other times? Yeah, just the usual ignorant, sexist garbage.

Eastern culture, however, DOES lean far heavier into the idea that if you are a Bellydancer and as such allow men other than your husband to see you dance, you are, most likely a woman of loose or looser morals and probably see no difference YOURSELF in how much clothing you are wearing or how provacatively you dance.
Also, at times, there seems to be a stubborn refusal to believe or accept, even if shown, that it is actually possible for a woman to be JUST a Bellydancer.

Yes, there exceptions to every rule. There are some wonderfully open minded people in any and all culture. Not sayin otherwise. But......c::

Thank you !!! You have explained it so well! To be honest, I started replying to this thread twice, but I just couldn't get it right. I felt that I was over explaining, missing my own point, and couldn't get in words what I was thinking.

I guess the main reason why I made such a big deal about this man's comment is that he already hired me to dance at his party, and saw that my show is family friendly, and could not get the idea that I was up for anything else (well, if he did, that was in his own mind).
And the way he kept asking over the phone, it just showed that in his mind a bellydancer does equal stripper, and in his culture this is not offensive, it's just what it is.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

I'm not sure I agree with this. How many times have we heard "she looks like a stripper" used as an insult when one dancer is denigrating another's ability/performance/costuming.

My feelings on this is that bellydancers don't want their dance to look like stripping (since most fight hard to not present it so), so maybe that's where this insult takes meaning. If a bellydancer keeps their dance classy and separate from each other then I don't think that the objections by other dancers to the profession would necessarily be more than the norm (as Lauren observed).

I know have known a few strippers and I know that several of them don't ever dance in their own hometown or metro area (particularly if they are in college, they DONT want other students knowing). . . so they drive to the next town or metro area to dance. Sometimes the larger clubs will even pay for a hotel or transport for girls that are really attractive and who are actually good dancers. Might be something to consider for someone going that route, would be much easier to separate the two "lives" that way.