Thread: Another way we get undercut...

I think we've all groused about dancers undercutting gigs...
But how do you feel about instructors charging waaaaay less (like half) what their fellow instructors charge for classes?

I know I'm pretty much in line w/ what other studios and instructors charge for ongoing lessons. And I do have class packages available that the more classes you purchase up front, the better the deal you get on each class (up to a point). But there's an instructor (known in our community and beyond) who has recently advertized a standard rate that is half what everyone else is charging. She teaches out of her home - which affords her lower overhead than those of us running studios in retail spaces (but should this lower the what going rate for a class is?).

I'm REALLY bothered by this...
.w.: ..c:: ,m::

That would be frustrating. Is this a new teacher who may not realize she is undercutting or is this someone well-established? If they are new they may not realize that this is a form of undercutting. Is there still a professional dancer/teacher coalition over there?

I would be bothered, too.

I think as a student I'd expect a home class to cost less, unless the person had a full-sized decked-out studio to teach in.

I'd expect any business conducted in a person's home to be somewhat cheaper, to pass the savings along to the customer (since presumably the customer is bearing the burden of less-than-ideal location, parking, privacy, and facilities).

But not half...

We have this sort of problem here as well, but it's MUCH less talked about because I think instruction is not as valued in this area as it should be.

There is one studio here where you can get TWO AND A HALF HOURS of instruction for $13. That's in a studio, mind you.

My rate is $10/hr for drop ins, $8/hr for those who enroll in my whole 12-week session, but even at the discounted rate that come out to $16 for two hour-long classes, not 13 for two and a half hours. Also, I charge $25 for my 2-hr-long stand-alone workshops.

Frankly I wish I could raise my rates, but I know I'm at the high end of what's charged in this area, so I'm stuck where I'm at, at least until the economy clears up.

I admit to being an instructor that charges less than the going rate... BUT I'm also after a different niche of women and don't teach out of a studio.

My classes are weekday mornings, aimed at the stay-at-home moms, and the recently retired. They have less disposable income to spend on "themselves". I've been-there-done-that myself for many years. Just to have an oppertunity to get out on their own one day a week is a treat. They get a community level intro class, in a gymnasium (no mirrors).

I'd love to charge more but this demographic just won't live up to it. BTW - if any of them ask for more advanced classes, or get interested in taking "more" I have NO problem sending them to my sister in dance that teach out of the real dance schools.

Just my 2 cents.

...you should be getting what you pay for. So, as a student I would ensure that I get what I am looking for in a class no matter what the rate was.

We charge $15 for drop-in 1 1/2 regular class at our Academy. You buy class cards - you get a discount. We have a reputation of providing abundance of information, break down the concepts we teach well and to give individual feedback in our classes. I've never heard anyone complain that our classes are inadequate in relation to what we provide.

My attitude has always been - you get what you pay for. If you dont pay, you dont respect it either. So, bottomline - if the instructor is charging so much less - she's essentially providing YOU with future students.

Let people be bit by the bellydance bug at her classes and then move on to you when they're hungry for more.

Essentially, nobody with self-respect, respect for their craft and their art, and with respect for the business would undercut to the extent of charging 1/2 off.

Dont be bothered.

My 2 cents.

DaVid

Originally Posted by david

Let people be bit by the bellydance bug at her classes and then move on to you when they're hungry for more.

Maybe. But if the other instructor is a 6-week wonder who charges less because she's barely more than a beginner herself, students are more likely to get OVER their BD bug in her class than bit by it. They may come away offended, bored, injured, or thinking bellydance is part of the world of Wicca or goddess worship.

Some people go into class curious and excited and leave thinking 'bellydance just isn't for me, I tried it.'

Ask me how I know....


**********

I'm OK with there being a range of prices. People expect to pay more if they're getting a luxurious studio, access to world class instructors, etc. Community center classes are often bargain basement priced but come with no mirrors, a crummy boombox, and the potato chip crumbs from that afternoon's senior party. No one thinks those classes should be priced the same.

But a 20% - 30% fluctuation seems more than reasonable.

Lauren: how do you know? :P

Originally Posted by Lauren_

... They may come away offended, bored, injured, or thinking bellydance is part of the world of Wicca or goddess worship.

I-AM-A-GOD-DESS
*ching-ching-cha-ching-ching*
I-AM-A-GOD-DESS
*ching-ching-cha-ching-ching*

*blink blink* you mean playing my sagat isn't ringing in the divine?
You mean I am not spreading blessings with my feminine energy when I dance?
You mean this dance isn't only done by women for women?

Sh*t! I've had it wrong this whole time.
...ok...sorry...back on target!

i've had significant problems with bders charging ZERO, $5.00, $8.00, $10 for years for workshops or classes. if & when i had hear a rationales for this it is usually A. i'm not experienced or B. i'm doing it for fun.

i would like to kick them.

i got into a tangle with somebody on yahoo who argued gig pay was significant but instruction not so much. that's bullocks. i often get gig contacts through class. if you don't start setting a price somewhere than where??

if somebody feels instruction price doesn't matter they must not work for a place that expects you to bring in a certain amount $$ each month. i do.

while i don't like it i find people tend to sign up for bders based on best time/ location for them. tinah

Originally Posted by tattood1

i've had significant problems with bders charging ZERO, $5.00, $8.00, $10 for years for workshops or classes. if & when i had hear a rationales for this it is usually A. i'm not experienced or B. i'm doing it for fun.

Truth in advertising should require the reasons for the cheapness of the class ON the flyer, just like a scratch-and-dent sale.

Totally Crap Bellydance Class!
Inexperienced instructor!

I'm only doing this for fun, so don't expect me to have a coherent lesson plan, knowledge of how to teach you safely or modify the movements to suit your body. I may not know what I'm talking about all the time, and could teach you bad habits and false information you'll spend years unlearning.

But it's only $5!

I don't mean to be mean -- of course we all have to start somewhere, and I WAS that inexperienced instructor once upon a time.

But undercutting isn't the answer. Putting lots of effort into getting yourself educated, so that you feel qualified enough to charge the going rate, is the answer.

This is just my two cents, but I think classes are a little different than performances. When someone is a new student looking for a belly dance class, they generally don't shop around looking for the best rate. They look for a class that fits into their current lifestyle--one that's convenient both in time and location. Assuming that class also fits into their general budget (ie isn't outrageously expensive for them), that's probably the class they're going to sign up for. They also sign up for the class that they can find in their search--either through word of mouth, google search, whatever.

This is a little different than a performer that comes to you to dance. A student has to fit the class into their schedule and life, not the other way around.

If the student is a little more experienced, then they might follow a certain instructor ("I want to take classes from this teacher b/c I like their style, even though I have to drive out of my way and rearrange my schedule a bit."). But again, assuming they can afford the classes, price isn't a major factor in who they take from.

I'm not saying that perhaps the teacher Chandra is speaking of should be charging more--personally I think they're doing themselves a disservice by charging so little. But I do think that this teacher's prices probably aren't majorly affecting other dancers' businesses.

Putting on my flame suit now...

Originally Posted by aazura

When someone is a new student looking for a belly dance class, they generally don't shop around looking for the best rate. They look for a class that fits into their current lifestyle--one that's convenient both in time and location.

No need for a flame suit...I think you make a really good point here. The thing that concerns me is as the economic situation deepens, will students start to look more and more at what they are paying, rather than the quality of instruction they are getting?


Random point somewhat related to what you were saying...I also teach at a community college, and the rates of the classes there have been a great source of frustration for me. Community centers, community colleges, rec centers etc. generally set the class fees, and the instructor has little say in the matter. So I have no power to get the comm college to raise their rates. On the one hand, I've had students comment that they think the rates are too low (! ...wish all students felt that way), but on the other hand, I've had other students say they chose the comm college class because it was a better deal than the classes at the rec plex down the street. This is aggravating because these community education type of classes make it a struggle to keep rates up to a sane level in studios.

There are a limited number of days/times to offer classes.

Mon-Thurs, 6-8pm gives exactly 8 possible time slots. (anything else is off-peak, difficult to fill, and like the daytime class above, you could make a case for discounting it).

The odds that two classes in a city are going to overlap in terms of days/times (or overlap with points of availability in an individual's schedule) are pretty darned good.

To a student living halfway between two locations with weekday evening availability, price could certainly affect the decision IF there's a huge price difference. I don't think the difference between $10 and $12 is going to affect it, but $5 vs. $10 could.

Anyone offering classes at half the going rate, unless there's a very good reason that's obvious to the students (inner city studio, no mirrors, bad time slot) shouldn't be surprised if the teacher down the street doesn't receive her with open arms.

price matters. when my rec insisted on upping my rate from $27 to $40 you betch your butt i had drop off.

btw $27 was the highest bd teaching rate in MY area (not other parts of the desert) at that time. to my knowledge i am now the most expensive in my area. i'm required to maintain a minimum 6 students or i get cancelled.

i'm working.

i would argue the MAIN thing most bders do is teach. many rarely or never gig sooo why is it thought to be "ok" to not charge the going rate for dance instruction.

there is a big picture, people, dance studios in my area charge approx. $35-38 a month for classes. yoga charge approx $60 a month.

perhaps students don't shop around for rates. perhaps they just pick the class in the neighborhood but it SHOULD be priced like any other class.

bettie bellydance teaching for free in her backyard cause she lurvs the dance is undercutting. period.

i have a hairdresser that comes to my house. she charges what a shop would. i tip well cause she is driving. so rationales that it's your house, or your studio has no mirrors or you've only been bding a year is NO excuse.

i was a new teacher once but the rec i went to set my rate in line with the other instructors. easy peasy.

i've gone round & round with bders on the topic & it boggles that gigs are some sacred cow & if you don't charge $$$ for them you're an awful terrible belly bunny undercutter BUT teaching in your living room for free is "ok"

tinah

Originally Posted by tattood1

i've gone round & round with bders on the topic & it boggles that gigs are some sacred cow & if you don't charge $$$ for them you're an awful terrible belly bunny undercutter BUT teaching in your living room for free is "ok"

Exactly.

And as you said...for many, if not most of us, our primary dance income is through instruction.

I'm going to weigh in on the other side, here. Anyone that knows me will find this strange: I'm a long-time professional and I argue long and loud for standards and respect.

When I teach a workshop, I rent a studio, furnish music and choreo and charge "more" than the local going rate. And it's worth it.

My weekly classes are taught through a local church. I get the room free BUT my deal with the church is that my prices will be kept low AND I will offer some for free for people that can't afford them.

Heck, I'm even undercutting my other weekly classes.

But, unless you know what arrangements this teacher has made, cut her some slack.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

There are a limited number of days/times to offer classes.

Mon-Thurs, 6-8pm gives exactly 8 possible time slots. (anything else is off-peak, difficult to fill, and like the daytime class above, you could make a case for discounting it).

The odds that two classes in a city are going to overlap in terms of days/times (or overlap with points of availability in an individual's schedule) are pretty darned good.

To a student living halfway between two locations with weekday evening availability, price could certainly affect the decision IF there's a huge price difference. I don't think the difference between $10 and $12 is going to affect it, but $5 vs. $10 could.

I understand your point Lauren, but I do think that the number of students that fall into this category is relatively small. Of course you're going to find students for whom price is a major consideration. But I think the majority of them select a class based on convenience first. Again, I'm not advocating someone teach for free or for $5. But I wouldn't lose sleep over it if I found out someone was. Now if that person was teaching a few blocks away from me and was basing her class schedule so it coincided with mine, that would be a different story. But if they were teaching across town, I would probably shrug it off and spend my energy figuring out better ways to market my classes and make sure I'm offering the best product I can.

Originally Posted by kahaz

But, unless you know what arrangements this teacher has made, cut her some slack.

Exactly.

I guess I'm a little sensitive about this because I was once accused of undercutting because the local library had hired me to teach a class. I was being paid (pretty well, actually), but the library offered the classes for free--this is what libraries do. They offer services to the community. The class was a one-time short session a few weeks in length. It was an inner-city library and the people that came to the class were people who probably would not have ever spent the money to pay for regular lessons. I offered information on where they could pursue regular classes after the session (from teachers around the community, not just me). Despite all this, I was still accused of undercutting by some local BD Police. The accusers didn't even teach in the same city!

why?

what "deal" do you have with your living room?? back yard??

yes there are quid pro quo situations i have done them. this ain't it. tinah

Originally Posted by aazura

Exactly.

I guess I'm a little sensitive about this because I was once accused of undercutting because the local library had hired me to teach a class. I was being paid (pretty well, actually), but the library offered the classes for free--this is what libraries do. They offer services to the community. The class was a one-time short session a few weeks in length. It was an inner-city library and the people that came to the class were people who probably would not have ever spent the money to pay for regular lessons. I offered information on where they could pursue regular classes after the session (from teachers around the community, not just me). Despite all this, I was still accused of undercutting by some local BD Police. The accusers didn't even teach in the same city!

I would completely understand somebody offering a free or low-priced class for a non-profit or educational institution.

The example I alluded to above, though, is in a for-profit dance studio. The studio is about 5-10 minutes from mine, and I consider us in direct competition for students. There is no excuse for someone teaching in a professional dance studio to offer ridiculously low rates.

Just a thought but unless she has a full decked out studio in her home, how many students would come even for low cost?

If you made food, advertised for half the going rate of your local diner and then said but you have to come to my house to eat, maybe not so attactive? Just a thought.

In my case I just keep plugging along teaching at a decent rate, doing gigs at a decent rate and don't worry about others in the area. Students will come and stay if you yourself run your business with integrity and you are a good teacher/performer, don't you think? (well I hope so because that has been my business plan for 5 years)

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

The example I alluded to above, though, is in a for-profit dance studio. The studio is about 5-10 minutes from mine, and I consider us in direct competition for students. There is no excuse for someone teaching in a professional dance studio to offer ridiculously low rates.

I totally understand your concern in that situation. I don't know why a teacher would offer such a long class at such a low price--I really can't comprehend this. Is this a weekly class? I can't imagine beginners wanting to go to a 2.5 hour dance class every week--that's pretty intense.

Originally Posted by aazura

I totally understand your concern in that situation. I don't know why a teacher would offer such a long class at such a low price--I really can't comprehend this. Is this a weekly class? I can't imagine beginners wanting to go to a 2.5 hour dance class every week--that's pretty intense.

I believe that the main class is 1.5 hours ($8 at the discounted rate), and if they are already enrolled in that one, they have the option of staying later for an extra hour of more "advanced" technique ($5). And yep, it's a weekly class.

I have quite a few students who take from both me and this teacher, and while some have commented on the great "value", they are kind of surprised how low the rate actually is, and while the class is good, they are frustrated by the mixed-level nature of it.

This happens in every business (especially small businesses) if it makes you guys feel any better.

And you will always lose an occasional good client b/c of it, plus it really does negatively effect all you are doing for your business in your area when someone is undercutting like that.

But take a look at other businesses around you as you go on and look at it from that same point of view.

In the end, you get what you pay for.

A photographer in my area that works for 500 bucks a wedding, some of his good shots:





And although I charge the average national rate at $2000 for a wedding (won't go into all the other differences besides money and quality right now), some of my work:





Like I said, you get what you pay for. (Not saying I'm the best, although if you think my work sucks, then my point kinda goes down the drain here.)

That's a nice illustration, JShane. The first two photos look more like informal snapshots than something I would expect from a professional photographer. Sometimes I think people don't realize that with photography, it's not just taking a picture that's clear and/or centered - it's the experience of knowing how to suggest poses, catch the light just right, etc.

Your work is lovely.

Thank you (I was hoping everyone wouldn't look at them and think the opposite, that would have not helped my point at all! lol)

But yea, aside from just the pictures, there were other differences in the services offered, amount of time spent, picture opportunities missed, etc. I saw the whole of that shoot and it wasn't done well.

The same applies to what you guys do though, performing and teaching wise. You get what you pay for, so always charge what you are worth. In the end, that person is undercutting herself most of all.

It's one thing when the facility (ie church, rec center, library) one teaches at sets the pricing - another when it's a professional studio or individual instructor CHOOSES to set such low class rates...

This instructor is not new to teaching. An excellent dancer, troupe director and choregrapher. Has promoted shows for the BD community at large.
She is fairly known in the area - has converted garage into nice little studio.
Charges standard rate and higher for gigs. But lowballs classes.

Originally Posted by JShane

This happens in every business (especially small businesses) if it makes you guys feel any better.

In the end, you get what you pay for.

A photographer in my area that works for 500 bucks a wedding, some of his good shots:





And although I charge the average national rate at $2000 for a wedding (won't go into all the other differences besides money and quality right now), some of my work:





Like I said, you get what you pay for.

This. This exactly. Photography is SUCH a good example. Like a 6 week wonder who bought herself a bella and is now a "world famous dancer and teacher" the photography option is the GWC (guy with camera) who went out, bought an expensive SLR digital thing and has decided he is now the next Wedding Couture and Vogue covervmodel artist.

And like we try to convey with dance - sure you SEE my performance, but what you don't see is the years of training, the workshops, the knowlegde of what costume works for what style, etc - the professional photographer knows things like fill lighting and photoshop (that sh** is HARD). You'll notice in the above examples the cheap photographer isn't using reflectors to make the bride pop out, isn't positioning the girls so they don't squint, etc.... but I bet his camera is big.

It is the same thing. And there will be people who will use him for weddings... but eventurally someone will say, "oh this is a cute picture. Did your mom take it?" and you'll realize your expensive wedding photos are no better than ones you could have done yourself.

And someday someone who is going to a cheap, undercutting teacher will grow and learn and get out into the community and dance and someone will say "wow, you're really good for being self taught with videos" and all those savings might not be "savings" to that dancer any longer.