Thread: Dance scheduler question

I have a question about being a scheduler.

Through my newly-appointed post as an events coordinator at a local Irish pub (I know, a weird place for this, but...) I found out the owner might want to have bellydancers for one night a month. I explained that dancers around here get (at minimum) $60/15 minute set performed. The way he pays every performer is to give them a 15-20% take of the till at the end of the night. This means that I can't guarantee that price but also a chance to get much more. He wants me to do scheduling as well.

My question is, would that be feasible? We haven't had anything for bellydance in my town and it looks like a good opportunity. This pub likes to have a variety of events, not all Irish-related. Also, as I've not worked as a scheduler before, and assuming this is an acceptable method of payment, I would love any advice!

Some questions: Does the dancer have to wait around until the end of the night to get paid? How many sets would she have to do? How much time between sets?

I ask these questions just to get a sense of whether or not it would be worth it to a dancer. It could be a very lucrative gig. But if the dancer is only dancer one set at say 7:00 pm, but then has to wait until the pub closes at midnight (or later) to get paid, that would be a pain. Also, would she have to wait until the till is closed out because that could be much later.

Aazura- since it would be my job to decide all that, I wouldn't make her wait but she might have to get paid the following day (or else how would they know what to give her?) I was thinking perhaps two or three dancers a night, 2 15-minute sets apiece or something.

I think there's an opportunity for this to work, I just want advice about what sort of things to bring to the table. Also, what to watch out for as someone hiring dancers, both good things and bad; the local community can sometimes be cutthroat.

The dancer needs a guaranteed minimum. Period. If the standard rate is $60/set then that's what you should be willing to pay. Otherwise its undercutting--you're paying dancers less than the fair market value. To me the chance to make more is akin to earning tips. A dancer in a restaurant/bar/party always can earn more when she makes good tips.
Instead I would spend the time to set the nights up in such a way that the belly dance nights are always profitable & well promoted. Maybe charge a cover on those nights to pay the dancer. Show the owner how smart & profitable having dancers is.

15-20% of the door take is standard for garage bands & people who don't mind being paid in free beer. Its fine for dancers who might be organizing something with a friend but not for dancers who are establishing a potentially regular paying gig in town. Think about how your decisions will effect your community long term. Establish the right precedent in your town for hosting belly dance entertainment.

Hi Naya,

That's what I'd like to do. The guy won't charge a cover even for bands, though, so that's out. I'm not sure what to suggest to him that would guarantee that set rate (which is what I'd want to have happen, of course). I am looking for assistance from bhuz because I'd like this to actually be on the up and up, profitable, etc for the community. I already gave the owner the undercutting speech; I think he trusts me to handle it but I am going to see if there is a way that pricing can be guaranteed.

Because he doesn't charge a cover, the pay is 15-20 percent of the till - that is, what's been sold during that evening at the pub. Around here the bands get the entire door cover charge paid to them directly if there is a cover; that makes this place different from most local entertainment venues. Since it is a very popular pub, that could mean a lot more than getting the cover from the door, but I'm not sure how that guarantee could be translated?

I hear you. I think you need to consider whether or not that sets a good precedent in the community. IMO it is a bad precedent to set. If you can't get a minimum pay, maybe its not the right place to have dancers. If you value a minimum rate for professional dancers & you want to establish a model venue in your town, do it the right way or be prepared to walk away. I've walked away from some tempting opportunities because they ultimately did not meet the kind of expectations I wanted for myself as a professional.
This is exactly like the well-intentioned but naive baby-belly who dances for free schwarma just to establish herself. She wants so badly to make a go of it that she's willing to sell herself short.
I hear that you want to make this venue work for dancers & I applaud that. I hear how genuine & sincere you are about wanting this to be a great, successful venue.
The fact that the owner doesn't pay the bands using a cover charge is no excuse. This is exactly the kind of situation that all dancers starting a new venue need to be prepared to tackle head on. Get paid what your worth, on professional terms or don't dance there.
If someone pushes you, do you fall down or push back? You have to push back & advocate for professional working conditions. Lead by example. Be the person you want others to see.

I think the only way you could guarantee the minimum under the circumstances you describe is to pay the dancers yourself, so that you're the one taking the risk.

In other words, regardless of the take, you personally guarantee the dancers $60 per set (or whatever your minimum is) and pay them out of pocket. In this way, you are functioning as a restaurant owner would - you pay the dancers as an expense, and what's left over after they're paid is yours. Or, if you want to pay them more, you can offer them the minimum plus a percentage of what the pub gives you.

A friend of mine will book me occasionally for multi-dancer gigs, and she handles the payment in a similar fashion. She gets paid by the venue/client, and then she pays us whatever we agreed on for a gig price. Sometimes I don't even know the total amount the client is paying - I just know I'm getting what I would normally charge for a gig. If the venue stiffs her, she still is responsible for making sure that I get paid what we agreed on.

Laura2 is right. Your only other option is to assume the risk yourself. Perhaps if you start out this way & show the owner how profitable dancers could be she or he will come around.

Right, I see both of your points. If it doesn't pan out that way (that is, where the price is agreed to) then I will walk away from it. That's the most important part to me. I thought that it might be possible to talk him into doing that (the regular pricing) but if I can't, I can't. I'm not going to put dancers on the line for nothing.

I'd be prepared to pay them myself and take a loss as well, if it came to that, as Laura mentions, just so they got the proper pay. However, we haven't really come to any sort of conclusion about it; it was just brought up because he knew I was a dancer and he might have interest in it. In further discussions we'll talk more about it, of course. I'm thinking that Laura's suggestion may be the only way to go about it; I don't really love that scenario either.

However...maybe that's the kind of thing that would have to be done? It's hard to know with this city. I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing/doing it right.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I'm thinking that Laura's suggestion may be the only way to go about it; I don't really love that scenario either.

However...maybe that's the kind of thing that would have to be done? It's hard to know with this city. I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right thing/doing it right.

To be fair to the pub owner, I think it's entirely reasonable that he doesn't want to re-create the wheel on payment for a specific type of performer. He has a way of paying for entertainment that has presumably worked fine quite some time, so unless he's dying to have Belly Dancers I don't see why he should be particularly disposed to make an exception. It doesn't make him a creep or an enemy of the dance, just a small business owner trying to do what's best for his business and his customers.

I think sticking to our guns and having standards about pay is a good thing, of course. But I think many dancers (speaking in general, not specifically about this thread) seem to think that because our standards are fair and sensible, clients are somehow required to take us up on the conditions we set out. It goes both ways - we try not to screw ourselves over, so why shouldn't they do the same for their businesses?

Before you make a final decision, you should ask the pub owner to crunch the numbers and give you an estimate of the till take on the night you're considering having dancers. For instance, if you'd like to try having dancers on Friday, January 30, he should be able to tell you the average Friday night take when there isn't any entertainment, and he should be able to tell you what the take was on the last Friday in January last year and the year before.

Having a ballpark estimate of the till take would at least give you a starting point for figuring out how many dancers it would be wise to invite. Then you can decide whether it's a risk you'd be willing to take.

I was a part of something similar to this at a bar/performance space in San Francisco. We received a cut of the bar during the time of our show (ie, if we said doors at 7, show from 8 to 10, we got a cut of everything the bar made between 7 and 10, 10:30). However, there were two big differences to what I see proposed here:

1) We charged a cover. We set the cover price (I think it was five bucks, which was typical for this venue when they had live performances). We also (wo-)manned the door...our own door guy took all the money, and it was ours to keep. The venue was not involved in the door at all.

2) The event was put on a group of friends. In other words, a few dancers decided to put together an event collectively. We shared the planning, each performed, shared publicity responsibilities, and the risks. And we also shared the profits. :)

It was a good experience, and I have considered doing it again. Brea, are you considering doing this yourself, or inviting other dancers? If it is just you and maybe a colleague, try it out and see how you do. If you are trying to make it an event where you hire other dancers, I'd say you pretty much have to pay them a guaranteed minimum. If you can't do that, and you can't talk the owner into doing that via a cover or entertainment fee, find another venue.

I've never negotiated an arrangement like this, but I have worked under one. It was a percentage of the door money rather than the till, though. We danced two sets for 50% of the door money (plus tips, of course). I always thought it made sense for our pay to partly depend on our ability to bring people in the door (otherwise why have entertainment?) Through word of mouth and advertising, we were usually able to fill the place with students, Arabs, friends, and other dancers. Generally we made more under the arrangement than other dancers were getting in our area for similar work (isn't saying much, I know). We suffered through the occasional slow night, but generally the place was hopping.

When the time came that we WEREN'T averaging at least our minimum any more (for several reasons) my troupe director shut the arrangement down.

So, if that's how he pays his other entertainers, I'd ask him how much they make on average. If it seems good, and if you think you have enough of a following to bring business in the door, then give it a try. Continue for as long as it averages out to at least $60, knowing there could be a slow night to endure sometimes. If it's not profitable, be prepared to cut it off.

Yes, I am not trying to get up anyone's nose, I just thought I'd throw the question out for other bhuzzers. The man running the bar is also a friend, as are most of the people working there and attending the events there. It's just unfamiliarity with our world for him, I think. He is enthusiastic about all of his performers and has a reputation of being trustworthy with pay and his performers. I like the suggestion of asking him what the general take usually is, and only doing it as long as it is profitable. I do like Laura's post above; it is an interesting thought.

Honestly I'd been thinking of having other dancers do it; I thought it would be arrogant if I took it myself (or at least, only for myself). I really sincerely want to have a venue for everybody to be involved with. When I detailed the prices for local dancers, he thought about it (based on the till take, I assume) and said that actually might work, but I didn't think to ask him at the time what the usual take would be.

I'd still be willing to stand in and guarantee (out of my own pocket) even if the take is usually good, just in case. The question here wasn't whether that was how the dancers would be paid: the question was "How can I make sure to guarantee dancers their proper payment under such an arrangement?" Also, if bellydance is relatively new as a performance draw, how do I get people in the door?

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Also, if bellydance is relatively new as a performance draw, how do I get people in the door?

Usually through the dance community, at least for non-Middle Eastern restaurants where you're not part of the general ambience but need to be a draw on your own merit.

In my experience, it's mostly dance students who are really interested in seeing a performer. People off the street will happen in and watch, or might come once, but dance students will come over and over if they think you put on a good show, and they'll bring friends.

If you teach, then your own students are your first and best bet. If not, then performing widely at haflas, workshop shows and other community events is a good way to build a following. If you have a reputation for being an entertaining and polished performer, they'll come.

If your area has any kind of middle-eastern community you can sometimes draw from that group as well. Even people who might not have gone to see dancers at home will come to shows here, to hear the music and meet up with each other.

If there are other groups that tend to turn out for bellydance shows, I'd love to know about them!!! Those are the only two that I've personally experienced.

my question is how do you know how much the till was? Do you just have to take the owners word for it?

I tend to think that it's okay for the belly dancer to be paid on a par with how other performers who work at that venue get paid. So if other performers who work at that venue work for x hours and are compensated with x% of the till, I think it's fair for the belly dancers to work a comparable length of time and get a comparable % of the till. (By my definition, the length of time the dancer would be expected to work would include time between sets when she is changing costumes or waiting around.)

I think it's fair to have the dancers bear some responsibility for attracting their own following, if that same expectation is being applied to other types of entertainers, which Brea tells us it is.

I know it's a different arrangement from what we dancers typically like to see, but when you're opening up a new venue that has not previously featured belly dance, sometimes you need to be flexible. If the pay turns out to be enough, then dancers will be happy to perform there. If the pay turns out to be disappointingly low, then as Lauren said, the good dancers won't be interested.

Toria- I believe that they have detailed information about their daily take and I'd be able to see it. Also, I'm friends with several bands and performers who have played there, so if they weren't telling the truth it'd be very easy to find out. Again, their reputation (with said performers) is pretty much the best in the city.

Shira - I do agree somewhat but I'd really want to have a solid foundation to build from. That is, I'd like to set a standard that can be followed should other venues decide to follow the example. I will find out this week a bit more; we are gearing up for a large Scottish event that's taking most of my (and their) attention at the moment. Also, when that is done, I'll at least know what that event paid out to my performers for the evening.