Thread: Apparently, my rates are outlandishly high - long

A friend of mine from a place I used to dance called me up to see if I could come dance in this other place he works. I told him my rate, he said fine, come meet the owner.

I went tonight. My friend introduces me to a woman who takes me into this little closet and just looks me up and down looking annoyed.

She asks, "What do you charge for a show?" I am in the DC area, so I quote $100, as this is not a new venue (with thanks to belly dance rates). She asks what for two, I say with no more than 15 mins between, I could do two for a (slight) discount.

Her annoyed reply, paraphrased following, floored me: I am a belly dancer. I am Moroccan - Arab - so this is my dance. I am the top - a professional and I only charge $150 [total] for two shows. I learned in Egypt with Raqia Hassan and Dina. I teach classes. I am telling you, this rate is too high.

I counter with the well-documented going rate in the area. She asks who pays that. I tell her the places I dance do. She asks where, I list them and she says she doesn't believe me. She's had the top dancers and they only work for $85 a show, $120 for two. ($85 is within the range, but $60/show most definitely is not!)

I told her that was odd, b/c the people I consider the top play an important role in setting an maintaining the standard rates, and $120 would be very low for them for two shows. I also told her that hard-working dancers deserve to make the going rate and should be charging it or more.

She kept insisting that even "top professionals" wouldn't charge such an outrageous price. So I thanked her and said "I'm sorry, it's not worth my time to work for under the going rate." She said that she wouldn't do it.

I told my friend goodbye, thanked him for his efforts and put on my coat. He told me the same thing: she is a top dancer and would never charge more than $150 for two sets. I told him that in this area there is a standard range for rates. To dance for less is not only not worth my time, but it's not respecting the community. .p::

The woman pulled my friend aside, and then he stopped me. He said, "what about just one show for $100? Then you leave." I agreed and she leaned across with a big smile on her face and took my hand and thanked me. It was so weird.

I honestly was totally unconcerned and was all too happy to put on my coat and get out of there. I understand she's trying to run a business, but you can't pull an attitude and try to mislead me. But I was willing to walk.

Granted, $100 is not the accepted minimum here, but for me, this gig would not be worth anything less. It's not terribly close to my house, so I'd essentially have to give up any sort of social plans. I would much rather sit at home playing video games with my boyfriend than put a whole lot of work into having my time undervalued.

Sorry to hear about your experience! If she's that marvellous, and thinks that price is totally acceptable, then I would be sooo tempted to tell her to do it herself........

It's called haggling!
I think you passed the test!..g.:

Do you think it was an elaborate way of trying to force you to dance for less. I've had various people-restaurant owners etc try all sorts of routines on me to get me to cut my fee. i'm glad you stuck to your guns. Putting your coat on and going and them upping the price,sounds just like when you haggle in the bazaar and leave the stall and then they come running after you with a better deal.

Hi Lisajuk we had the same idea at the same time!!!

I grew up in southeast asia where you haggled for the price of your groceries...that was classic haggling. (First thing we all learned to say in any language was <insert mock surprised shock look here> "that's too expensive!")

She was trying to get one over on you. Good for you for sticking to your guns...now she knows what you will and will not do and for how much.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

It's called haggling!
I think you passed the test!..g.:

I think so too.

You did well - all that back and forth served a real purpose - I would guess she is now pretty confident that you are a professional because you know the scene, the rates, your worth, etc. and because of that you'll be good to work with. She was engaging you with arguments that might shake a less-experienced dancer. Obviously she was pleased with how you handled yourself.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I think so too.

And me three. You are seriously my hero - I get so flustered in those types of situations, but it sounds like you were cool as a cucumber.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

I went tonight. My friend introduces me to a woman who takes me into this little closet and just looks me up and down looking annoyed.

She asks, "What do you charge for a show?" I am in the DC area, so I quote $100, as this is not a new venue (with thanks to belly dance rates). She asks what for two, I say with no more than 15 mins between, I could do two for a (slight) discount.

Her annoyed reply, paraphrased following, floored me: I am a belly dancer. I am Moroccan - Arab - so this is my dance. I am the top - a professional and I only charge $150 [total] for two shows. I learned in Egypt with Raqia Hassan and Dina. I teach classes. I am telling you, this rate is too high.

I counter with the well-documented going rate in the area. She asks who pays that. I tell her the places I dance do. She asks where, I list them and she says she doesn't believe me. She's had the top dancers and they only work for $85 a show, $120 for two. ($85 is within the range, but $60/show most definitely is not!)

I told her that was odd, b/c the people I consider the top play an important role in setting an maintaining the standard rates, and $120 would be very low for them for two shows. I also told her that hard-working dancers deserve to make the going rate and should be charging it or more.

Oh, my. I know exactly who and where this is, Leyla. This 'dancer' also came into another venue where we both work and insistently offered to give the owner a private dance, for free. And then offered the same to the owner's friend, who was also there that night. She made sure to tell the owner that American girls can't dance, a reoccurring theme with her.

I danced at this venue briefly, until they decided it was too slow on Fridays to have a dancer and I could not work there on Saturday nights. I have found out since that the owner told some of our mutual friends that my show wasn't long enough. The Moroccan pro dances for 30 minutes at a time, as opposed to the standard 20 minute show.

The first time I met her was at another venue where I dance, she was working as a waitress, and she told me quite emphatically that American girls can't dance and this is "her dance". Um...sure, so why are you serving coffee and I am being paid to dance?

Anyway, I have also heard it from an Arab friend that she charges $200 for ahem...very private parties. This friend also told me it was better that I don't dance there anymore, to keep my reputation as a nice girl intact (despite being a dancer!! ..l;,). I have seen her show at the above mentioned venue and honestly, the best way I can describe it is "Arab girl social dancing in a costume to a long show of mishmashed music". Oh, and she was off-beat. 'Nuff said.

ah-ha-ha-ha!
Leyla- I know exactly who you are talking about! Your description is impeccable and congratulations on surviving your encounter!
Interesting. 6 months ago she had never HEARD of Raqia, and only learned and worked as a dancer (or something) in her native Morocco. To another dancer she tried to claim she was Lebanese. lol.
At that point in time she had no idea who any of the major designers were either...which would be quite a feat for one who claims to have taken from Raqia and Dina. She learns quickly to drop names at least. She has always played the "it's my dance" card.
She currently has a sprained ankle or something so needs to find people to fill in.
At a former shisha place in B'more she repeatedly went in to the venue to tell the (American woman) owner that "you shouldn't hire American dancers, none of them can dance and it's MY dance." She offered to audition for free on a Saturday night between another dancer's two sets. The owner said "no" come in Sunday. She said OK- then twice was a no call-no show. I have a different definition of "professional" from she.
At another she also used the same words disparaging American dancers. Damiena knows more about that one than I.
She auditioned at a place in VA- where they didn't want her back. The owner told me she claimed to be the "only good dancer in the area". "Not a good dancer" according to the Arab customers, "Left with a male customer we don't want her kind here" according to the owner.
She's never even *seen* a high percentage of the dancers around here. Odd to me that she claims *all* American dancers suck.
I've been told by Egyptians that the venue you are talking about is known to have dancers who "spend time alone with men for money". They didn't put it so delicately though and they weren't referring to any of the (few) American dancers who have worked there.

Being willing to walk is the ONLY way to be successful in negotiating, great job!

nope leyla, your rates are just fine, and typical, and should stay where they are :p

everyone speaks wisely, there WILL be owners and managers,etc claiming noone pays that, despite evidence to the contrary...........glad you stuck to your guns

Geez, this woman sounds nuts from your story and the rest of everyone else's (assuming it is the same person).

That's rather creepy she decides to haggle with you in a closet.

I'm proud of you Leyla. Way to stick to your guns and get the gig.

Wow. May I ask what is it with people?! ,r:; Good for you, Leyla!

(*Nods appreciatively at Leyla's haggling skills and applauds soundly at her integrity...*)

Way to go, Leyla! Thanks for sharing, this, and I hope that the experience proves profitable and pleasant for all involved.

I've learned to always say $25 dollars than my lowest rate to leave room to haggle. Another trick that Yasmina of Vancouver taught me is that when they want to lower the price, stand your ground and tell them you will do a special dance for their culture (i.e. a Bollywood song in an Indian restaurant, etc.)

A lot of middle-eastern people I've known and a few from southeast asia area try to bargain for EVERYTHING, even in retail stores with set pricing. I wouldn't worry much about, she was probably just trying to get you lower. Plus I think you did the right thing by sticking with the community standards; nothing hurts a business more than when someone (especially with experience) starts doing work cheaper than everyone else. Then everybody starts in trying to get gigs by cutting rates and slowly the prices will drop drop drop.

Erm ladies You are probably right ...she sounds like a bedroom bopper but you know many real dancers haven't "heard" of famous dancers or designers even in their country and dancers you think are well known are not elsewhere.
You transatlantic cousins mention well known (to you) US dancers we've never heard of them. We'll drop in the name of Euro dancers and no doubt you'll go blank. I am still learning the names and faces (thanks to you tube) of Golden Era Egyptian dancers beyond Samia,Naima and Tahia.
I had heard of Suhalia but when I saw her dance in the flesh did wonder what all the fuss was about and I wasn't alone. So I think our perceptions must be different!(rueful grin smillie)

Wow, thanks everyone! I knew she was trying to get me to drop the price, but I also thought she was just out of touch with reality. I had to resist saying to her, "If you're a top dancer, you need to be charging more. Have you seen Samira's page for the rates guide?"

When I told my boyfriend the story the next day he said he was proud and that dancing has obviously made me more confident b/c a year ago, he couldn't have seen me doing that.

And it's true. A year ago I would have thought she's right, I'm not at the top of the game, so can I really charge what the top dancers charge? And I would have been totally run over by the My People's Dance card.

Besides the confidence boost (and Laura, I know what you mean, I usually get very flustered myself!), being a part of the community did it. Seeing the rates posted and discussed all over the place gave me all the ammunition I needed.

Now, it looks like I might turn it down after all; it sounds like there's some sleazy stuff going on there.

Stick to your guns! Restaurant rates are different than party rates. I live in LA and don't even put on my costume for less than $120-150 and people are always trying to negotiate for a lower rate and they quote all the famous dancers (whom I know so it is total BS) saying they will do it for cheaper.
Maybe we need a union or something!

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Erm ladies You are probably right ...she sounds like a bedroom bopper but you know many real dancers haven't "heard" of famous dancers or designers even in their country and dancers you think are well known are not elsewhere.
You transatlantic cousins mention well known (to you) US dancers we've never heard of them. We'll drop in the name of Euro dancers and no doubt you'll go blank. I am still learning the names and faces (thanks to you tube) of Golden Era Egyptian dancers beyond Samia,Naima and Tahia.
I had heard of Suhalia but when I saw her dance in the flesh did wonder what all the fuss was about and I wasn't alone. So I think our perceptions must be different!(rueful grin smillie)

Admittedly.. but it's still odd for someone to not have heard of a famous dancer one day and then claim to have studied with that person extensively the next. I think that was the point here.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Erm ladies You are probably right ...she sounds like a bedroom bopper but you know many real dancers haven't "heard" of famous dancers or designers even in their country and dancers you think are well known are not elsewhere.

You are absolutely right Lizajuk, but my response was based on the fact that Raqia and Eman share a building for their studios and socialize together all the time. One taking classes with Raqia would know that.

Good for you Leyla! You did a great job ;-)

OMG leyla! They called me too! I was already booked this weekend and couldn't do it so we didn't get into price. i know exactly of whom and where you speak. I had an inkling that something fishy was going on.
GOOD FOR YOU! sticking to your guns.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Admittedly.. but it's still odd for someone to not have heard of a famous dancer one day and then claim to have studied with that person extensively the next. I think that was the point here.

I wasn't thinking just of her..more a general comment.

I think you handled this well. Good for you!!