Thread: Etiquette: Moving to a new town, Restaurant Dancers

Ok so I just got word that we are NOT going to Quantico as planned, We are headed to a small town in North Carolina. I have done some research and found that there is not much dancing there, there is a hooka bar that is owned by a tribal fusion gal and her troup dances there, and then there is one other Dancer that dances at another hooka bar Friday night and a restaurnant Saturday night. As far as I can tell that is ALL the professional dancers there. So here is my question. I want to dance, I have been dancing at a resturant here for 2 years now, and would like to continue when I get all moved in. Since I know that there is a dancer at these 2 places I intend on heading to these venues first. Now do I contact the dancer first ask her going rate so that I dont under cut, and also so that I dont get laughed out of the place for asking too much, also so that she is not totaly blind sided by me. OR do I just go in as any other job state my price and see what happens? I mean there is room for another dancer at both places since she is at 2 different places 2 different nights, and really why should she care, or even be nice to possible competition?..c::

If I wanted to work at starbucks, I wouldnt go in and ask the employes how much they get paid, and if it was ok if I applied for the job..c::..c::..c::

So, want to go to the restaurants where this other dancer has built a relationship and take her job? I am not thinking that is going to be met with happiness.

You may want to rethink your strategy. Perhaps get involved with the dance community there first.

This os something we all face as there are more dancers than jobs. How you handle this will affect your standing in the community from now on. I strongly suggest you become friends with the dancer and feel your way into this situation. Ask her opinion and find out the best way you can join the community before asking about the job. I have had people come onto my turf and steal jobs, showcases etc... without telling me or talking to me. bad! bad! bad karma. I will never be buddies with them again. And I will never forget the slight. It is very unprofessional. But remember only you and the dancer/community will feel this way. The restaurant could care less about these delicate matters. So you are really courting the dancer not the restaurant.

Originally Posted by webdeva67

So, want to go to the restaurants where this other dancer has built a relationship and take her job? I am not thinking that is going to be met with happiness.

You may want to rethink your strategy. Perhaps get involved with the dance community there first.

UMMMM NOOOOOO, I am saying that if she dances x on friday and z on saturday , then there is no reason why I can dance x on saturday and z on friday

You've taken the first step: you've communicated here. Im moving across the country this spring myself and have a lot of the same concerns.

Do a lot a internet searches for other dancers/teachers. Throw the question out in various forums here and see what/who else there is. I t always amazes me how often people that live right here in town "discover" the dance community! There may be more people than you think.

Write/email the dancers there BEFORE you move. Let them know who you are and what you are hoping to accomplish. You want friends, not rivals.

And if you move before I do-let us know how it turns out. I admit to being very nervous myself..w.:

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

This os something we all face as there are more dancers than jobs. How you handle this will affect your standing in the community from now on. I strongly suggest you become friends with the dancer and feel your way into this situation. Ask her opinion and find out the best way you can join the community before asking about the job. I have had people come onto my turf and steal jobs, showcases etc... without telling me or talking to me. bad! bad! bad karma. I will never be buddies with them again. And I will never forget the slight. It is very unprofessional. But remember only you and the dancer/community will feel this way. The restaurant could care less about these delicate matters. So you are really courting the dancer not the restaurant.

which was my exact thinking, I have already posted on a e mail list that I will be comming, I havent heard from this particular dancer yet though. Only people saying she dances at x and y. I have gotten a wonderful response from local gals, and a pro gal from about an hour away, just not in the exact little town I am headed to. I wanted to contact her and let her know I was comming, but then thought really why should she care?

I had also intended in having a "Hey Im Annwyn and I am new" Hafla at my home once I am unpacked, which honeslty will take a week, being a military wife, I am so quick at getting settled, moving 6 times in 4 years will do that to ya. Anyways, Thank you for the advice. I was thinking that exact thing but needed another opinion.

Question, When is it too early to contact her? I should be settled by july/aug?

i agree that it's good that you're starting here...........maybe post that you're moving to an area in say, meet-up or something and see if any bhuzzers are from there as a broadcast......those that are would say 'hi', likely reach out, and that will start a dialogue....see if there are online community boards or groups for that area......

i'm agreed that touching the community first is a great idea, you can bring up venues and other possibilities, and those questions will likely be expected.....i DO agree that speaking with the dancers is the best idea.....venues, no matter how ethical or well meaning, unless owned by that dancer you mentioned, have there own interests in mind, so 'courting' the dancers is the best way to get correct rate information.........

it'll be fine................keep us posted

I would chat with these ladies on a regular basis. I am thinking about moving to portland in a year or so and am already feeling the waters. If you all make friends then the opportunities will follow. And I think once you get to know each other - have a hafla etc... flat out ask them. who is the dancer who works the most in town? how do I go about getting a job because I really don't want to step on anyone's toes? Most importantly - how can I help this small community? Showcases? class promotions? Be buddies no matter what the quality/style of dancing it is. It will pay off in spades, you'll feel good about yourself, and they will like you and invite you to dance etc...and hopefully you'll find a wonderful new niche for yourself. Most of us are divas but we all have this sense of deep community so I would play it that way.
You could also offer to sub first. That is a great way to find out if you even want to dance at any of the venues. That is the way it is in LA. I don't even pursue restaurant jobs because the venues are so rude!

Sounds like you are at least trying to share and not steal the jobs away. But I do find it odd that you wouldn't try to track down some new places as well. I've seen that a lot in this area...someone finds out someone is dancing somewhere and they immediately start trying to dance there as well. (And chances are, the restaurant is already paying them to dance as much as they want; so you probably are more likely to steal business than share it)

There was one restaurant in this area that was known for turning down bellydancers (old greek restaurant, popular place). I suggested to my friend that was thinking of approaching them to talk her girlfriends into having a bday party there and clearing them hiring a bellydancer for their party. So they faked a bday and acted like she was just someone they hired and had her come in and perform. Everybody loved her in the restaurant and she got a good reaction from customers and employees and next thing you know the owner was asking her to dance there.

If you steal the only restaurant in town currently having dancers, then you wont' make any friends. I would try to get a new place first and then, at least if you had to target their places you could talk to them about splitting things instead of flat out going after them and explain that you already tried several places in town and this is your only option.

There are at least 4 dancers currently performing in Wilmington that I know of. You may not hear from Marcy at the Juggling Gypsy as she is super busy and not able to get to her computer much. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it as a performance venue. PM me if you have questions. There are 2 new hookah bars in Wilmington besides the Gypsy, and a couple of Middle Eastern restaurants as well.

There is only 1 dancer performing in Jacksonville (at a local sports bar and at the mall occasionally).

There is a Lebanese restaurant in Morehead City that doesn't have anyone performing currently (that I know of).

There are classes and the occasional performance at a Wine Bar in Beaufort.

There *was* a hookah bar in Atlantic beach but it closed last year (pooh!).

Other than that, I haven't heard...I am mostly retired now so I am not as aware of what's out there.

Out of curiosity, is this common in most entertainment industry jobs, to have to make friends with or check with another entertainer before auditioning to work in the same place? Unless there is a head dancer who does the auditioning and scheduling I really don't see why she can't contact the management to get an audition. The management should decide if their dance roster is full or not (providing she doesn't undercut to get in there). Since I am head dancer at one of the places i work I expect dancers to contact me in regards to an audition. However at the other place I work dancers constantly show up to speak with the owner about being put on the schedule. They don't introduce themselves to us first nor would i expect them to since he does all the hiring and scheduling. I think it is definitely a dancers responsibility to find out how the scheduling works at a place so she doesn't step on toes but let's be realistic. A dancer shouldn't have to go out and befriend the whole dance community before looking for work.

Girlfriend! Chances are the other dancers are not going to be honest with you ONE bit! You are going to be a threat!!!! They will lie to you about how much they make!!! They will tell you "charge $150" when they are only charging $100.

Get the gig at the pro dance place, set your own rate. Once you've performed there once or twice, stop in on a night that they are dancing....just to say hi. But don't go there before you get your own gig. Get the gig through the owner YOURSELF, do not expect them to help you.

Then, once you're a little settled there, go to the tribal place and say hello. Maybe hang out and take a class with them, if you feel a sisterhood they may let you into the group if they are non-egotistical. But also remember, some dancers make their income just on gigs, and they will guard those gigs with their life. Other dancers have such egos...well....they will keep their gig just so no one else can have it.

Don't trust too much, watch what info you give, but if you see sincerity after more than one meeting, maybe they're cool. I have a million dance friends, but when it comes to the dancers who actually make money in the same town, there's actually very few willing to share.

No one "owns" their gig unless they actually own the restaurant. All restaurants go through change because the same dancer night after night will get boring after a 6 months or a year and in some cases, 3 months.

I've been burned so many times in Detroit I can't even begin...but...you find your way by being YOURSELF and setting your own standards.

Keep us posted!!

Annwyn
There are 2 sides to this coin. I agree with the devil's advocate position that questions why as dancers we feel obliged to get permission to seek out paying work in an area where another dancer has already established herself, its a free market economy & we should all be able to go out and seek work where we see fit. True..but I think the practice comes from the recognition that unlike Starbucks, steady paying venues for belly dancers are few and far between.IMO it would be disrespectful for you to seek work in the town w/out introducing yourself first which leads me to my counter-point: the purpose in seeking out the other pro dancers in the town is not to get their permission, but to gain their respect. It is a basic courtesy to introduce yourself. Its likely that your presence will pose a threat. If you approach the situation with the right finesse, you could find yourself being offered opportunities, rather than having to make or take them. Do you want to alienate yourself or do you want to meet new dancers & become an asset in the area?

I've been a house dancer at the same restaurant for five years. The dancers do not own or run this restaurant, and greatly appreciate the owner for his efforts to treat all the dancers with respect & family values.

Each dancer goes through the same process that has nothing to do with friendship. Some of my friends have made it, some have not. The lead dancers have agreed with the owner to run the dance portion as a business or stop the dancing all together. Bottom line is the success of the restaurant.

The potential employee must submit a resume listing her training, performance experience, & several photos in costume to the owner.

It is explained by the owner at that time what the music, costume and dance expectations are. How long the audition will be, & no the restaurant will not be full at the time of the audition. We never submit the customers to unknowns.

Then an audition date is set up, with several of the house dancers in attendance. The house dancers give their opinion to the owner who makes the final decision. He contacts the dancer to give the verdict.

Two side notes: There are currently six house dancers who represent every studio in town. Politics & attitudes are not tolerated. The expected behavior is very clear. Can't do it, don't bother auditioning.

Yes, we have had dancers come in and offer to work for free. They have been told to submit a resume, set up an audition, & the other house dancers will be in attendance of their audition with the knowledge they have offered to work for free. We haven't had a single one of those individuals return.

Second: We have had to educate potential employees of reality. This isn't a game & you aren't some fairly tale artist/goddess who must be worshiped by all. It's a business, this is a job, with a pay check and taxes involved.

There is professional behavior, scheduling, being on time, the costume is considered a uniform, keep your opinions to yourself, you are Switzerland concerning dance politics.

To which I have had to deal with negative responses from those auditioning who feel their efforts to be an overtly sexual being, an artist, to be culturally insensitive, hairy & smelly, is their personal right. Well it is. But not when you are being interviewed for employment. There's the door.

More to follow...

Getting to the point, I would suggest you figure out the lay of land before seeking employment. Evaluate what other dancers have experienced.

Then go to the restaurant as a customer several times. Do not mention you are a dancer until you get the feel of the establishment. Watch how the waitstaff is treated & treat you. Do you really want to dance there?

If you like the place, talk with the dancer working when her set is over. Ask if there is room for another dancer. Ask who to submit a resume to, how auditions are held, and what the pay scale is.

Seriously consider what the dancer says. If you are hired & as a result displace the current house dancer, the same could happen to you. Yes, it is employment provided by an employer at will. But would you be all right with being fired in preference for someone else?

Tread carefully, with respect & open communication with others who are employed as dancers. Good luck and best wishes.

Some questions to think over...

How important is it to start dancing immediately upon arrival? Would it be acceptable to wait a few months, to give you time to get to know the community?

Which will be more important to you to have in the new community: a friend or a rival?

Have you considered opening up new venues instead of trying to get jobs in the ones that already have someone? You say that you should be okay to dance in the places on the nights she's not there, but what if those places only want dancing one night a week?

Have you considered other options for getting dance work, such as working with a singing telegram company?

Originally Posted by lana

Girlfriend! Chances are the other dancers are not going to be honest with you ONE bit! You are going to be a threat!!!! They will lie to you about how much they make!!! They will tell you "charge $150" when they are only charging $100.

Get the gig at the pro dance place, set your own rate. Once you've performed there once or twice, stop in on a night that they are dancing....just to say hi. But don't go there before you get your own gig. Get the gig through the owner YOURSELF, do not expect them to help you.

Then, once you're a little settled there, go to the tribal place and say hello. Maybe hang out and take a class with them, if you feel a sisterhood they may let you into the group if they are non-egotistical. But also remember, some dancers make their income just on gigs, and they will guard those gigs with their life. Other dancers have such egos...well....they will keep their gig just so no one else can have it.

Don't trust too much, watch what info you give, but if you see sincerity after more than one meeting, maybe they're cool. I have a million dance friends, but when it comes to the dancers who actually make money in the same town, there's actually very few willing to share.

No one "owns" their gig unless they actually own the restaurant. All restaurants go through change because the same dancer night after night will get boring after a 6 months or a year and in some cases, 3 months.

I've been burned so many times in Detroit I can't even begin...but...you find your way by being YOURSELF and setting your own standards.

Keep us posted!!

This isn't the case in every community, and in fact, communication among house/booking dancers has succeeded in raising rates AND standards in many communities......

Having made the mistake in the past that everyone just wants to be friends, here is my take on the matter. . .

Go and introduce yourself to the current dancers.

Go spend a couple of months taking classes. Even if you know more than the teacher.

Go to any hafla's in the area. DO NOT PERFORM AT THE FIRST ONE UNLESS INVITED TO!

Do not try to change or improve the existing community. Especially if you feel that you will not become entrenched there.

I am saying this because of my personal experience. In my enthusiasm, I know I stepped on some toes. I didn't try to steal any gigs, I did try to find out about the community and get involved as soon as possible. It was misinterpreted. 4 years later, I still get the occasional nasty gram. And I am not in that community any more.

Not worth it in the long run.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Halima-Dances

There are at least 4 dancers currently performing in Wilmington that I know of. You may not hear from Marcy at the Juggling Gypsy as she is super busy and not able to get to her computer much. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it as a performance venue. PM me if you have questions. There are 2 new hookah bars in Wilmington besides the Gypsy, and a couple of Middle Eastern restaurants as well.

There is only 1 dancer performing in Jacksonville (at a local sports bar and at the mall occasionally).

There is a Lebanese restaurant in Morehead City that doesn't have anyone performing currently (that I know of).

There are classes and the occasional performance at a Wine Bar in Beaufort.

There *was* a hookah bar in Atlantic beach but it closed last year (pooh!).

Other than that, I haven't heard...I am mostly retired now so I am not as aware of what's out there.

HEY LISA!!!!!!!!!

I am trying to look for things down in wilmington only, since our house is down that way, I got a great response from the jacksonville girls, but wanted to stay away from that area, 1 I think wilmington is classier, and 2 my husbands job, (you know what I mean,) pm me if you want, but in short not cool to go and see the C.O'S wife dance, more a respect thing for the hubby. I did some research and found a cool hooka place last night that didnt have a dancer that I can tell, I think i will try there as well. I definalty dont want to take a job from anyone, but I dont want to sit in the back with nothing just becuse I am nice too.

oh and I dont think that the juggling gypsy is going to be a venue, I saw pics of the place and UMMMM not my style, who are the other dancers performing?

Originally Posted by lana

Girlfriend! Chances are the other dancers are not going to be honest with you ONE bit! You are going to be a threat!!!! They will lie to you about how much they make!!! They will tell you "charge $150" when they are only charging $100.

Get the gig at the pro dance place, set your own rate. Once you've performed there once or twice, stop in on a night that they are dancing....just to say hi. But don't go there before you get your own gig. Get the gig through the owner YOURSELF, do not expect them to help you.

Then, once you're a little settled there, go to the tribal place and say hello. Maybe hang out and take a class with them, if you feel a sisterhood they may let you into the group if they are non-egotistical. But also remember, some dancers make their income just on gigs, and they will guard those gigs with their life. Other dancers have such egos...well....they will keep their gig just so no one else can have it.

Don't trust too much, watch what info you give, but if you see sincerity after more than one meeting, maybe they're cool. I have a million dance friends, but when it comes to the dancers who actually make money in the same town, there's actually very few willing to share.

No one "owns" their gig unless they actually own the restaurant. All restaurants go through change because the same dancer night after night will get boring after a 6 months or a year and in some cases, 3 months.

I've been burned so many times in Detroit I can't even begin...but...you find your way by being YOURSELF and setting your own standards.

Keep us posted!!

See this is EXACTALY what I was worried about, AHHHHHHHH what is the right thing to do?

Originally Posted by lana

Get the gig at the pro dance place, set your own rate. Once you've performed there once or twice, stop in on a night that they are dancing....just to say hi. But don't go there before you get your own gig. Get the gig through the owner YOURSELF, do not expect them to help you.
...
No one "owns" their gig unless they actually own the restaurant. All restaurants go through change because the same dancer night after night will get boring after a 6 months or a year and in some cases, 3 months.

omg. dude. if you rolled into seattle with that attitude, you'd be ridden out of town on a rail. you would get blacklisted from any regular paying gigs, would not get invited to dance in any haflas or shows, would never get a referral for a private party from another dancer, and would be met with a distinctly cool attitude at any dance event you went to. for YEARS. slights like that can be taken very personally by the collective crowd and they have a loooooong memory. a bellydance community faux pas - even one made by mistake - can take forever to recover from. gigs come and go, but the dance community in the area remains pretty much the same for years and years.

yeah, nobody *owns* their gig, but everybody is a member of a dance community, and in many if not most cases it's that dance community that makes the dance world go 'round. you *might* get a gig by going directly to the owner, but if you lose it (or even if you don't get it in the first place), it's a fair bet that you might not get another one! the other dancers in town will have heard about what you did, and might warn the owners at the places they work about you. what's more important: to barge in and get a job and risk being frozen out of the dance community? or to be a respected and liked member of the dance community, where - LET'S FACE IT - we're NOT like other professional performing communities - dancers strenghthen their business and reputation by cooperation and communication, not by pushing other dancers out of the way?

I'm sure not all areas are the same as mine. but here, we're for the most part delightfully honest and helpful with each other, and welcoming to new dance colleagues in town. YES, there are more dancers than gigs so we can be possesive about them. but if you want the slightest chance at getting in on a possible gig, the ONLY way to do it is to find out who dances there, and ask them in a polite and professional way what the protocol is for new hires. if you get a defensive vibe from them, then you make your choice: move in and and risk making enemies, or do what you can to find your OWN gig.

annwyn, I urge you to contact some dancers in your new town to introduce yourself, and I see no need to wait. find out about any haflas or shows you can go to and attend them to show your support. go to the restaurants to support the dancer, tip her and your waiter well. if you support them, they will in turn support you. inshallah. ;)

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Having made the mistake in the past that everyone just wants to be friends, here is my take on the matter. . .

Go and introduce yourself to the current dancers.

Go spend a couple of months taking classes. Even if you know more than the teacher.

Go to any hafla's in the area. DO NOT PERFORM AT THE FIRST ONE UNLESS INVITED TO!

Do not try to change or improve the existing community. Especially if you feel that you will not become entrenched there.

I am saying this because of my personal experience. In my enthusiasm, I know I stepped on some toes. I didn't try to steal any gigs, I did try to find out about the community and get involved as soon as possible. It was misinterpreted. 4 years later, I still get the occasional nasty gram. And I am not in that community any more.

Not worth it in the long run.

{{{HUGS}}}

Excellent advice.

We had a dancer move here who wanted to dance. The discussions around this were, she basically hadn't earned her stripes and there were other dancers already waiting in line who have been moving up slowly. It was not fair for her to cut in front of them. I'm sure she may have burned some bridges.


After about year she told me She wanted an opportunity to dance at One of our top restaurants. So I spoke to the scheduler who was my close friend she spoke to the ownerr and she got her shot.

Unfortunately our middle eastern community (Arabs) are extremely picky. They did not like her, but to state one more point.

If you are given a shot. Don't forget who helped you get it. This gal has been rude to me since then and never even said a thank you. So now I am more reluctant to help an outsider.

I prefer that new dancers speak to both me and management. I am pretty livid if a new dancer doesn't bother to meet me, though, and suddenly I'm being asked to squeeze her in and someone else off the schedule. It's ultimately up to the manager, but it's not a good thing to isolate yourself by pissing everyone off.

Yes, it's true that you may not NEED to get acquainted with other established dancers. And that you CAN just do what you want-and perhaps other entertainers would do just that.

BUT: do you ever want to sponsor a workshop? Or attend one? Or find out about other opportunities both to perform and learn? Want students and a community?

You didn't learn to dance overnight. Don't rush things too much now. As an about to relocate teacher/dancer/performer I know how you feel. But I'm trying to do things right so as to avoid bad feelings later.

Kitty

Originally Posted by lana

Girlfriend! Chances are the other dancers are not going to be honest with you ONE bit! You are going to be a threat!!!! They will lie to you about how much they make!!! They will tell you "charge $150" when they are only charging $100.

I can't tell you how many times some dancer with this same attitude came into a place knowing NOTHING about the venue- and UNDERCUT with the excuse "well, they must be lying about their rates" or "no one makes that much". Then the owner tries to cut MY rates because they've realized some girls will dance for less. In DC we experience this sort of thing quite frequently.
Annwyn, you know better than to be this dancer though. ..g.:

There is a BALANCE- and there ARE communities that manage to (mostly) communicate clearly and fairly.
You DON'T have to become best friends with a dancer so she puts you on a schedule- but there is a way to balance community relationships with ethical, friendly competition.
I would recommend finding out about the haflas and starting to forge relationships before you even get there. Try to find out if there are any yahoo groups, tribes or meetups for your new area.
For current ongoing gigs, I'd approach the dancer and offer to sub in case she ever needs or approach the owner/manager and offer to sub. BUT honestly I would not negotiate unless I knew the going rate AND I'd do my best to negotiate a higher rate.
Yes, there are dancers who inflate their rate- but for every dancer who does this there are AT LEAST five owners who lie to you and tell you the rate is less than what it is. It is naive to think otherwise. At the word of a lying owner/manager/musician you might unwittingly undercut- which WOULD put you in hot water with the community.
What I have found works well is to not ask "what do you charge?", but to say "I don't want to undercut. What are the going rates for this area? What should I charge so that I don't lower the rates in this area? I want to be a positive in the community." Let them know how you did things where you are now, and ask how things are done in that area. Ask several dancers- in case one turns out to be the kind Lana has experienced.
Each community does things differently. There is to be an expected amount of "we want a fresh face"- and it is the owners right to choose who they want to have dance. When you balance this with developing professional relationships with other dancers, and charging the same or more as everyone else for the same amount of time dancing, you're on the right track.

Originally Posted by annwyn

See this is EXACTALY what I was worried about, AHHHHHHHH what is the right thing to do?

what everyone is saying, keep in touch with those area dancers and get as much info, contact and support as possible

we have a venue in the area that had raised their rates, only to have it undermined by a dancer new to the area who was invited to dance there by a manager, KNEW who the booking dancer was, bypassed her, performed for LESS than the other dancers, which caused a backlash to the others, by the owners trying to revert to a lesser rate, even doing so, which lost them the best dancers.......

please please please DONT go around the booking dancer or other dancers(i don't think YOU would at all, it's been evident from your other posts that you are ethical, it's more aimed at others that may not be as experienced and could use the input).....in most communities thats the ONLY way you'll get the right information regarding rates....more experienced dancers may get more, but we've got a pretty high starting rate in this area..........and we got it by sticking together and getting venue owners used to hearing those numbers.......

Annwynn,
It must be frustruating to have to follow this advice 6 times in 4 years. Everytime you move, your career as a dancer almost has to start all over. There's nothing easy about that. Just think of how well connected you'll be & what a competitive advantage you'll have in a few years.

now how do you go about doing this in a big city?

Originally Posted by najla86

now how do you go about doing this in a big city?

Exactly the same way. I am moving to London and started to network with other dancers and teachers 2 years ago. I went to Raqs B and stood in the back of the class rooms quietly taking classes. I did know a few dancers from Bhuz and introduced myself to a few others. I have been assured by some of the People Who Matter that I will be welcomed.

But, that having been said, i am taking the same approach as above when I finally get there. Slowly introducing myself into the community, offering to help, not to direct, etc.

But, that may just be my previous bad experience making me cautious.

{{{HUGS}}}