Thread: Event organizer amnesia?

Okay.. for those of you who teach workshops around the country, can you tell me if what has happened to my troupe is happening more than I think it is?

Situation #1: My troupe sponsors a successful weekend event every year. One year we were contacted by a woman who was very impressed with or organization wanted all kinds of advice on how to run an event like ours. In exchange for the help she was asking for, she of course had us "first on her list" of instructors for the weekend. We gave lots of advice and consultation freely and she created her event. When it came time to negotiate our contract however, we were told that she "just couldn't afford" us and we were dropped. Looking over the list of other teachers she was bringing in, she could afford us just fine if she had maybe not reached up to the top of the pay scale for her other teachers. If we were "first on her list" where the heck were they? Zero? She promised us a spot in the second year of her event and you guessed it. Can't afford us again, but can afford even MORE big-name dancers than the year before. She's in the planning stages of year three and we're not holding our breath.

Situation #2: We were approached by another organizer group two years ago with the possibility of teaching at their event and it didn't pan out. Fine. We were straight-up invited to teach at their event happening later this year and we accepted. We've been promoting the event ever since. We recently contacted them to nail down the date and discuss our contract. Upon trying to negotiate up to our minimum pricing to counter an almost insultingly weak offer, the head organizer expressed that she was very surprised that we had their event on our website as one we were teaching at... that she remembers speaking to us about last year and that not panning out, but has no recollection of inviting us this year (which was done in person, with three of our members present to hear the invite... and was confirmed via a couple of emails afterwards). The deal she was offering was the best she can do because she's bringing in too many bigger names with higher price tags. No negotiation or apology.

Now, as an event sponsor, I'm all for maximizing the event's potential by bringing in the big sellers, but I also don't believe in booking up-and-coming teachers and then cutting them loose because you over-budgeted for your event.

Has this happened to any of you? Are there any event sponsors out there who can give me ample justification for this kind of behavior? I mean, our troupe has checked availability on teachers who we later chose not to go with, but I don't think we've ever booked anyone and then rescinded the offer.....in fact, the one teacher we couldn't squeeze into our event last year after checking her availability became the first on our list for this year because we felt very uncool asking her about teaching for us and then not being able to book her in the end!

Ugh. Event organizers get reputations, too. I would think these organizers' reps will not be favorable. That is inexcusable. Did you actually have a contract? That seems to be the only way to avoid this kind of bad behavior.

In both cases we only had an invitation and it was when contract time came that they forgot their promises. We might have to go the route of not promoting any event until we have the signed contract in hand. Maybe it was stupid to promote before that point, but we like to think folks will live up to their word. Our mistake.

I'll raise you those two and see you a margarita (complete with salt). In any arena I've traveled in, I've always gone by the mantra, if you've helped me out, I'll help you out, in anyway I can. So silly me tends to assume the opposite - you want me to pull strings for you, have you teach at one of my events, need this/that done, I'll do my very best...and I should be able to expect the same in return.

But, it doesn't always work that way, and I keep finding that out the hard way....but I've pretty much come to the point where if the other party fails to fulfill their part of the bargain, can't be bothered to give a reply to email, etc - that's it. They're on THE LIST. As in the THE LIST of people I won't work with again or help in any way. Total waste of energy.

Edited to add, in re-reading this, I wanted to clarify that it's more about the exchange of energy, rather than a "if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." I think a good solid community is made by being genuinely helpful, not because you think you'll get something from it, but rather you want to help people out, and if in the future, you might need help, it comes back around. Karma? Maybe. Just seems like the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by mihri

In both cases we only had an invitation and it was when contract time came that they forgot their promises. We might have to go the route of not promoting any event until we have the signed contract in hand. Maybe it was stupid to promote before that point, but we like to think folks will live up to their word. Our mistake.

You are doing Shimmy Tecumseh right? I don't have your contract yet, I did send it however,....you better be coming..g.:

Originally Posted by AmiraStar

You are doing Shimmy Tecumseh right? I don't have your contract yet, I did send it however,....you better be coming..g.:

Oh, Amira! I am certainly not talking about your *your* lovely event!! You've been nothing but a pleasure to work with!! I did mail that contract off a while ago though. Let me make sure I didn't just dream that. Either that or I'll get you another copy right away!!

Hmmmm...dancer amnesia. I've found it doesn't pay to count your chickens before they hatch, whether it's honoring a simple request for an audition opportunity, or a promise to include you in an event or choreography.

But honestly, wouldn't you rather be invited because the organizer wanted you to be part of the event? It sucks that she picked your brain, and didn't follow through on her original mention of hiring your troupe. At least the lame excuse lets you know where she really stands.

Originally Posted by da Sage

But honestly, wouldn't you rather be invited because the organizer wanted you to be part of the event?

Of course, which is why we believed her when she told us she wanted us to be part of the event. Are we interested in working with her now, after finding out what she stands for? Of course not! I've got a Tempest List too (and Tempest isn't on it)

I just think it's ridiculous that any organizer would think this is acceptable behavior and was wondering if it goes on all over or if we're just unlucky.

Well, the official word now for situation #2 is that we had been invited to teach by members of their troupe who had no authority to invite teachers to the event. I still find it kind of hard to believe that nobody mentioned to the head organizer that they'd asked us to come, but she assured me that everyone had a talking-to about who can and cannot invite teachers. She is still offering to have us teach, but at a rate far below our normal. We'll probably opt out and leave the door open for next year if they want to invite us back..... that is, if the right one of them wants to invite us back!

Both situations sound really unfortunate, and I'm sorry you and your troupemates are going through this. None of it is justified, of course, but to be fair, it does kind of sound like some sort of miscommunication. I don't know the people in question, so I can't speculate as to how intentional their actions are, but it doesn't seem like the sort of behavior that an organizer would want to do deliberately. At least, certainly I wouldn't.

For whatever it's worth I've often had many teachers contact me to teach at my event after my schedule is full. My general response is "stay in contact and we'll try for next year." I've had an occassional teacher misinterpret this to mean that they were definitely on board for the next year. Truthfully, I can't keep track of all the requests and I don't make promises that far in advance. If I've given a firm "yes" to someone, I generally try to honor it, and I don't usually get to the firm "yes" part until terms have been discussed.

I think your best bet to avoid this in the future is to get a contract. Even if it's just an official "letter of intent" with loose terms.

You have a good reputation (as far as I know) and your circumstances are very different from what I'm about to describe, but I thought I might also acknowledge that there are other situations that might warrant a sponsor backing out of a light offer. For example, after an initial discussion and offer, the sponsor might learn additonal information about the teacher that a) would reflect poorly on the event, or b) impacts the teacher's ability to fulfil their duties as an instructor.

Anyway, I'm sorry for your frustrations. I'm wishing you only the best.

I like what Tempest said. In all my (and ours - Two Old Bags) years of sponsoring, I have run into a few of what we call "give me" people. The ones who want to pick your brain and give nothing in return, not even a Thank You.

When we started organizing Wiggles of the West 2009, we called on a LOT of our friends to teach. Some of them we had promised a workshop in the past and could not squeeze them in. So with our larger workshop format, we called those promised people first.

So to answer your question - yes we have run into people like those event sponsors you ran into. And we avoid them like the plague.

Janie

Our new web site Wiggles of the West Las Vegas!
Our old web site Wiggles of the West Belly Dance Competition now in Las Vegas, NV we are still transfering information

Originally Posted by jenee

...
So to answer your question - yes we have run into people like those event sponsors you ran into. And we avoid them like the plague.

Janie
...

Owner of a big dance school with many students pulled out the same trick on me !

One of his teachers - 95% of them are part time, underpaid and certainly non-professional dancers, so the school can keep low prices to lure more students - proposed me to teach two workshops for the school.

Me - happy and overjoyed and wanting to prove myself helpful, the owner - a computer engineer - not dancer himself, asked me directly "What would you do if you had several hundred students ?" There was no discussion about my workshops at all after my sincere reply. What is more the school invited reputable teachers MY WEBSITE links to ! Can you believe it ?

This is NOT END of the story. I invited a famous teacher from Egypt and that school was busy to gossip about this teacher (whom they did not know at that time) and about me and way I do business.
Last year they even ran down another famous master teacher I invited for workshops - instead of sending their poorly trained teachers to learn with her...

Maybe I`ll start a spinoff thread because I don`t understand why a computer engineer started a belly dance school, anyway. Any clue ?

Mihri,

I know how you feel.

The only acceptable possibility next time is a written agreement.

Cheer up ! There will be other events coming your way soon !

If its not in writing signed by both parties its no better than the tissue I blow my nose on. Promises and words mean nothing you can ask any American Indian that.

Amen to that! We always have contracts/agreements. Even with people I have known for 25 years or more (been in BD for over 30 years). We have 23 Instructors teaching at Wiggles of the West this year and I have a contract with each and everyone of them. Don't be afraid to ask for terms and pay in writing.

Janie
Wiggles of the West Las Vegas!
Designs By Janie - Belly Dance costumes designed by a Belly Dancer

I had a big event send me an "invitation" to teach when I wrote up the class description they asked for other classes, so I wrote them up. Time goes by and I don't hear a word, I email and ask what is going on with the event. They email back that they did recieve my "workshop proposals" (hmm? I thought it was an invitation?) but decided not to go with it. I did read some of their workshops and one description sounded very much like mine with a local dancer teaching it. Live and learn I guess.....

Originally Posted by faaria

I had a big event send me an "invitation" to teach when I wrote up the class description they asked for other classes, so I wrote them up. Time goes by and I don't hear a word, I email and ask what is going on with the event. They email back that they did recieve my "workshop proposals" (hmm? I thought it was an invitation?) but decided not to go with it. I did read some of their workshops and one description sounded very much like mine with a local dancer teaching it. Live and learn I guess.....

I received a very similar invitation this year - although it did state that they would be selective based on the requested workshop descriptions and other info. I submitted a couple of very specific topics that have never been taught there before, so I'll be make sure to keep an eye on their workshops page...just in case. ..g.:

Originally Posted by faaria

I had a big event send me an "invitation" to teach when I wrote up the class description they asked for other classes, so I wrote them up. Time goes by and I don't hear a word, I email and ask what is going on with the event. They email back that they did recieve my "workshop proposals" (hmm? I thought it was an invitation?) but decided not to go with it. I did read some of their workshops and one description sounded very much like mine with a local dancer teaching it. Live and learn I guess.....

I interviewed with a publisher once that admitted to doing basically the same thing - shopping good book ideas that were submitted out to other writers. . I'm sure the editor wasn't thinking when he opened his mouth to a non-employee. .p::

Everything in writing. You don't need an actual "Contract". I suggest that the next time you receive an "invitation" or a "request", even if it is by phone - reply via email and flat out ask them to give you details. Send them your quote and a reply by date. Event organizers..and I have organized my fair share, should be on their game and know what they want and what their budget is before contacting anyone.

It doesn't shock me to hear about people like this anymore...they are everywhere!

I did have the one offer via email... .the organizer who had me spending hours counseling her on how to start up an event. Still, that was two years ago, so...meh.

The one that happened more recently was a verbal invitation so yeah... should have gotten some kind of confirmation on it before putting it on my calendar. Live and learn!

While I haven't planned BD events, I have been an event planner for 10 years now. This is a lot more common than people think. Very unfortunate. Sorry to hear it happened to you.

I get calls for freebies all the time. Charities seem to be the worst offenders. Ya'll know those calls to "dance for the exposure" you get for charity dinners, etc? I get those too...plan it for us and we'll put your cards out (I do mostly corporate stuff and racing so that wont' help me at all), let us pick your brain, etc etc etc.

I got burned badly being nice about those kind of requests in the past so I came up with a new system. I tell them what my consultation fee is. They can pick my brain all they want...if they pay me. My time is worth money. Usually around $100 an hour. I'm flexible on that...high maintenance people pay more and people I like pay less. But always get compensated for your time.

One thing you may want to consider in the future is allowing them to pick your brain in return for signing an instructor's contract early...basically the deal is to book you now in writing in return for your help. Kind of a scratch my back I'll scratch yours deal. If the event doesn't happen, no big deal...just make sure that you don't exercise a cancellation clause that gives them a penalty if the event doesn't happen. Leave yourselves an easy out as well. But nothing wrong with asking for some kind of compensation up front. This is business after all!