Thread: so i need to work on my "timing"...

For those of you who dance in restaurants, how long are your sets? When I started restaurant dancing I danced for 20 minutes took a break, then 20, then another break, then 20, then went home. When I was told the other dancers ususally did 30, I started being a a tiny bit more liberal on the length of the sets but I still generally let the songs I choose dictate the length of the set. However, last night I was told that their other dancer dances 40 minute sets (which may be a slight exaggeration, but only slight) and that I need to work on my timing. That's what he always tells me, that I'm a great dancer but I need to work on my timing, and he's referring to how long my breaks are, not how I dance. I tried to tell the owner that I feel like people lose interest after a while and I like my GRAND entrances for each set. I'm very particular about the order in which my set is organized, I put a lot of time and thought into each set, how the songs fit together and flow. I don't see myself ever dancing for 40 minutes straight, but I'm just curious, how long are your sets? Am I being stubborn?

I'm not a performer, but it sounds like the Restaurant Owner may be trying to get more dancing from you for the same money. Any time I hear ' Well so and so does x,y,z longer/cheaper' my rip off radar goes off. I'm not saying he's trying to cheat you, but maybe you should check with the other dancers. Where I am, the dancers have 15 or 20 minute shows.

just my two cents.

how about going to check out the other dancers to see what their sets are like? you're right - the owner is probably exaggerating - but it could be helpful to see what the other gals are doing. he obviously likes it and if you like your job there :) you might want to do the same.

the places I've danced, 20-25 minutes on stage with 5-15 minutes working the tables is pretty standard. one place I work they negotiated 30 minute sets (including audience interaction time) with us, which can be hard to fill because the place is teeny tiny. but I'm always careful to be dancing a full 30 minutes because she watches the clock! another place I dance we have to be sure to be on stage for 25 minutes before we work the tables.

as for the timing between the sets deal - seems to me that should be up to the restaurant owner to decide? go watch another dancer or three to see how long their sets are so you know he's not working you over on your set length ;) , and then ask him what time he wants your sets to start.

I agree with the other posts. Don't take the owner's word for it, talk to the other dancers and drop in on one of their shows to see how long their sets are. Generally, my restaurant sets are about 20 minutes, but some places I've danced 30. The only time I've danced over 30 minutes is when I'm dancing to live music and the music, the crowd and the tipping are all really good.

in my experience with restaurants, the set length is mostly determined by how many tables there are that evening.

quite nights 15-20 min sets
crazy busy nights up to 45 min if there are large parties who want all their children to get up and dance.

30 min should be more than sufficient. but i don't know how busy the place is and what the configuration of the tables is like. that makes a difference too.

ita w/ asking the other dancers

I think the advice to see some other dancers shows and find out what they're doing is good advice. It could be the owner is exaggerating. It could be that there is something they do in their shows that just makes them *seem* longer (maybe spending less time on the stage an more moving around in the audience?) Or...it could be that they *hadn't* been doing more time but started getting this same line/pressure (especially if they're younger/newer dancers.)

In my experience, the size, type, and atmosphere of the venue has often had a lot to do with what show length was appropriate. In some very small dining rooms with no stage (or in places where the music was just one live keyboard) shows tend toward the shorter side: between 15 and 20 min. In smaller but more staged venues, maybe 20-30. In a couple of really busy places they may go be in the 25-35 range. But frankly, by the time it gets to 40-45 minutes, unless the venue is very large (so people get a break from the dancer)or extremely into it, hopping...most diners are ready for a break. And...pressure for more and more time at the same price can be a rip off trigger. Still, I say don't assume yet--start by checking out what's actually going on. And then, if you do end up needing to talk to the owner about it, be sure to position it in terms of how the slightly shorter show time is actually *beneficial* to *his* business and audience (as opposed to your show and how you like to work.)

Good luck!

I'd go see the other dancer's sets AND I'd talk to them about it (their sets may be getting longer because he's telling them the same things he's telling you!).

In my area, in the places I've danced and/or visited, the sets were roughly 20 minutes, give or take a couple.

I'd definately say the owner is trying to get more dancing out of you for some reason.I've had this happen to me, the owner going on about how great the other girl was, how she could get everybody up to dance, how fab her costumes were, she danced for longer. Then I saw her.... er no, none of it was true.
30minutes sounds a very long set in a small restaurant.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'd go see the other dancer's sets AND I'd talk to them about it (their sets may be getting longer because he's telling them the same things he's telling you!).

In my area, in the places I've danced and/or visited, the sets were roughly 20 minutes, give or take a couple.

This was going to be my suggestion. I've always seen +/-20 minutes, but I usually have 30 minutes of music on my CD. If people are up danicng, or even better, tipping, I stick around.

An owner pulled this on me once. The dancer who I was replacing told me two 15-minute sets, and since it was such a small place it made sense. He pulled me aside after a few nights, all disappointed about the time. Then he gave me her CDs to prove it. They were not a second over 15 mins ..l;,

Thanks everybody, I was thinking 40 minutes was over the top. There's only two dancers at this place, (I'll call her dancer x) and me, one on Friday, one on Saturday. I can almost guarantee that dancer x does extra extended sets (I used to work with her so I know how she does things). Maybe not 40 minutes, but at least 30-35. So dancer x has pretty much set the bar, and up til' now I was pretty much ignoring the hints that I need to dance more, but then he told me about how he didn't like the "timing" of another dancer who used to work there, and now I'm thinking this issue is not something that's going to go away. I think he may keep pressing the issue, and I'm thinking of ways to break it to him that I'm not going to do extended sets just cause dancer x does. I'm not worried about losing the job, I'd rather go down feeling like I stood up for myself than give in. Just gotta figure out the right things to say to him, and there's the language barrier thing of course.

p.s. on a side note, i love bhuz, you guys are like the bellydance family i never had. :-D

personally 40 minutes is a long a$$ time to dance 3 times a night. if your being paid accordingly thats one thing, the other is i kinda agree, after 20 minutes, - 30 minutes i feel like the audience doesn't have nearly as much interest and you need to start pull props out of your #&(&$ to keep them entertained. (american audience).

Originally Posted by AmandaRose2

personally 40 minutes is a long a$$ time to dance 3 times a night. if your being paid accordingly thats one thing, the other is i kinda agree, after 20 minutes, - 30 minutes i feel like the audience doesn't have nearly as much interest (american audience).

I agree - even as a BD aficianado, I get a little restless after more than 25 minutes of the same dancer (unless of course it's someone like Aziza who I could watch for 3+ hours and never get bored).

I had a student go to a restaurant with dancing here for New Year's Eve. The dancers are quite good, the atmosphere of the restaurant is awesome, and this student has been to some haflas and loves BD. She told me the dancers did 45 minute sets and it really surprised her how bored she became about halfway through.

The restaurant I used to dance at had us do two 20-25 minute sets with about a 45 minute break in-between for a costume change.

I completely agree. Unless he's paying me a hella lot more, I'm not going to go over 25 minutes, especially since that seems the norm if not the high end of everybody's responses (thank you!!!). Even with how much I dance now I've been having to scrap getting anything done on Saturdays. I have to rest a good part of the day to pull off a good energetic performance at 9pm. I don't do a costume change or anything. The place is usually about 70% American (though Saturday there was a ME party), and nobody gets up to dance or maybe I'd do some dabke or something. I enjoy the gig, but feel like even if I weren't too stubborn to give in, I'd be doing myself and my performance quality an injustice. My husband (who hangs out at the bar while I dance) heard the bartender say something about how um... sweaty the other dancer gets. I'm sure I would too after 35-40 minutes. And I really think that would take away from the mystique.

Just do what you do best and prefer and don't worry about what the other dancers do (or probably don't actually do). 20-25 mins is ideal for a restaurant.

Originally Posted by nidawi

My husband (who hangs out at the bar while I dance) heard the bartender say something about how um... sweaty the other dancer gets. I'm sure I would too after 35-40 minutes. And I really think that would take away from the mystique.

Uh oh! If we only dance til we get sweaty, I need to cut all of my sets down quite a bit

Hehe, I know what you mean though, in the summer, by the end of 20 minutes, the underside of my hair is wet, after 40 mins, I'd look like I got caught in a carwash.

I'm glad you're standing your ground though. That's a ton of work to not be paid for!

Haha, glad you know what I meant Leyla. I get sweaty too! Actually, I don't sweat, I glow. Hahaha, j/k.

Probably a good sign that when you start dripping into the customers' hummus it's time to take a little break.

Personally, I "glisten"...LOL.

Originally Posted by nidawi

Actually, I don't sweat, I glow. Hahaha, j/k.

I'm about to flounce. No, not from here, but from the restaurant. I really really really don't want to, but Saturday he told me he wanted me to only take 5 minutes breaks. I'm there for 2 hours, and he wants 5 minute breaks between each set??? Um... no. I looked at him wearily and said "5 minutes? That's a lot of dancing..." and then I sighed. I know he sensed I wasn't happy about it, so then he then goes on to tell me how he's not feeling well and how tired he is, and I know he's in a rush because they have a huge birthday party that night. So I didn't discuss the issue with him at the time, but I also only danced 3 30 minutes or less sets. And I took sufficient breaks too, ha! I hate dealing with the confrontation but I guess it's time to deal with it. I'm such a wuss about these kind of things, already I know I'm going to have to approach him as a different person to get what I deserve.

If I get some time in the office with him on Friday, I'll make him a new offer. It just seems so stupid. I felt the amount I danced on Saturday was perfect and everybody seemed happy. But I can tell he wants more outta me. I could do 5 minute breaks by dancing for a couple songs, take 5 minutes, dance to another couple songs, take another 5, and repeat that for 2 hours. It will ruin the oomph of my sets, but it may give the illusion of continuous dancing for the customers. The other option would be to bust my booty and dance for 40 minutes like the other dancer, but I'm going to have to charge more, much more. Maybe I'll give him three options, to 1) dance as I have been dancing, 2) pay me more to dance longer sets, 3) break up my dancing into mini-set, break, mini-set, break, mini-set, break, etc. etc. It's tough because like I mentioned before, there is a language barrier here, and usually I can tell he's not in the mood to negotiate. Not to mention, I'm such a pushover sometimes. I'm going to have to break out the claws to make this work... Any suggestions? Thanks in advance...

So... what he really wants is 40 minute sets with 5 minute breaks in between? For 2 hours?

I'm not even sure meeting him halfway would be reasonable. I hate confrontation, too, but I think you're going to have to be really firm. Because of the language barrier, you'll also have to keep it really simple. You'll either earn his respect or lose the job -- as it is, it's not too much to lose. (unless he's paying you proportionate to the amount of dancing he's asking -- what would that be, about $600 a night?)

Start by saying 'I dance 20 minute sets. Each 20 minute set costs $50 (or whatever). How many of those do you want?'

If he asks for 30 or 40 minute sets, I'd say 'I dance 20 minutes.'

Eventually, if he starts TRYING to meet you halfway you could sigh heavily, shake your head, and say 'For you -- ONLY for you!!! -- I'll dance 23 minutes.'

heee....

Originally Posted by SidoniaOfNashville

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance...

Here are some pointers to help you negotiate:
1) Remember that some people magically develop a larger language barrier as part of their "negotiating skills". This guy may (or may not) be doing that. His English was good enough to get all those restaurant licenses, alcohol licenses and pass health inspections. Keep that in mind.
2) You can only be a successful negotiator if you are willing to walk. Have in your mind what you "limits" are in this situation. Don't start your negotiation AT those limits. Start your negotiations at your "ideal" (more on that below)...and compromise only to your comfortable limit.
3) Ideals. Explain to him how *professional* dancers work. Explain to him how to get *the most impact for his money*. Let him know a skilled dancer is NOT "wallpaper" for 45 minutes, a *skilled, professional dancer* puts on an exciting show for 20-25 minutes. She can hold the attention of the crowd for that time (and the music should be turned up during those times with her show music)...then during her breaks the music should be at comfortable "talking volume". Explain to him that the audience gets uncomfortable with having to watch a show for that long and the audience is uncomfortable with "feeling rude to the performer during their show". Remind him that the audience WANTS to socialize as well and proper length shows along with decent breaks allow his clients that comfort.
4) If he talks about how the dancers in the Middle East dance for an hour or more...let him know you know their SHOWS are an hour or so- and that they have a 10-25 piece band, a singer, back up dancers and someone to help them change quickly backstage. When he wants to provide (ie PAY FOR) all that extra visual stimulation for the audience, you'll GLADLY make your shows an hour long. In the meantime- you know what is best for the audiences here.
5) Have your "limit" price for your longer show a good bit more expensive.
6) Perspective of regular venue rates: in NYC- rates range between $75 and $150 for ONE 20 minute show. In DC/VA/MD- rates range between $75 and $150 for ONE 20 min show. Nashville does not have the ethnic population that these cities have, BUT- it has a large metropolitan area. Charge accordingly.
6) If not many venues HAVE belly dance it could be a good draw if they do it right and make it an exciting SHOW (not wall paper/ambiance). Point this out to him.
That's just for starters. Good luck and keep us posted!

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

6) If not many venues HAVE belly dance it could be a good draw if they do it right and make it an exciting SHOW (not wall paper/ambiance). Point this out to him.
That's just for starters. Good luck and keep us posted!

I'm picturing this restaurant with a wilted, sweaty dancer doing half-hearted figure 8s in a corner.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Eventually, if he starts TRYING to meet you halfway you could sigh heavily, shake your head, and say 'For you -- ONLY for you!!! -- I'll dance 23 minutes.'

Oooh, nice one!!! ..g.: So going to use that... Yeah, the numbers don't quite add up, I think his ideal night would go something like:

30 minutes of dance 9:00-9:30
5 minute break 9:30-9:35
40 minutes of dance 9:35-10:15
5 minute break 10:15-10:20
40 minutes of dance 10:20-11:00

So not going to happen, unless he compensates for all that.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

...
Eventually, if he starts TRYING to meet you halfway you could sigh heavily, shake your head, and say 'For you -- ONLY for you!!! -- I'll dance 23 minutes.'

heee....

lol! Yes! This is important to remember too.
Oh, AND what I do with "slippery people" is have paper and pen handy and I write down what we agree to "so I remember it right later" (smile nicely when you say it)... this helps to discourage them from going back on their word later. If they try you can always say- "oh, let me check my notes..."
Some of these places never do a contract- but having them SEE you write it down helps prevent some issues.

I'm a little confused. I apologize if you've covered this above and I missed it, but how are you being paid for your two-hour timespan? The way Lauren broke it down is the way it should work in general, although established rates and set lengths will vary from place to place.

I ask because there are places (not in my city, as far as I know) where the dancer gets paid a low hourly rate to be there all evening and do several sets a night -- she ends up spending much more time at the place for a fraction of what she would make if she were charging by the set for multiple sets. I don't think this is your scenario but wanted to mention it just in case.

My standard restaurant set is 20 minutes, which is pretty typical for my area.

ETA: Boy, am I slooooow this morning. I started writing this after Lauren's post #19 and missed all the good stuff in between. So yeah, what they said!

Thank you Samira and Lauren, this is definitely a huge help. I need to write a speech down, just so he doesn't catch me offguard again. I am going to highlight the part about how professionals charge and how long they typically dance. Nashville has a looong way to go to even compare. I know what I'm up against, I used to work with her and it's part of the reason I no longer do so. I've already tried telling him how the audience needs a break from the bellydancer, and how I like to make grand entrances and exits, but it didn't seem to sink in. I'm going to reiterate it, and bring the customers back into the conversation. Maybe I can even tell him what an American audience is comfortable with, since the majority of the audience is usually American...

Zana, no worries, I'm confused too. I think I made a mistake from the beginning and didn't approach him with the exact terms and details of how I do things. I just started dancing my 20 minute sets and nice long breaks and thought all was well with the world until he started asking for more dancing. They have a sign for "Bellydancer - Friday and Saturday, 9pm-11pm". I'm the Saturday girl, but indeed, he did sort of give me the 9pm-11pm thing, I don't think he understands my "sets". I wonder if it's too late to define that term for him... There's another guy that sometimes works there, he's out of town, but he's a musician and I think he understands how I work. And he's also acted as a translator at times between me and the owner. I'm crossing my fingers he gets back into town asap, it would help so much to have him there. Thanks again ladies, this is great stuff!

A 5 minute break is pointless. It is oversaturating the audience. I do 2 20-minute sets with a 1 hr break in between. It gives time for the tables to turn over and time for me to eat something and rest.

Originally Posted by SidoniaOfNashville

Zana, no worries, I'm confused too. I think I made a mistake from the beginning and didn't approach him with the exact terms and details of how I do things. I just started dancing my 20 minute sets and nice long breaks and thought all was well with the world until he started asking for more dancing. They have a sign for "Bellydancer - Friday and Saturday, 9pm-11pm". I'm the Saturday girl, but indeed, he did sort of give me the 9pm-11pm thing, I don't think he understands my "sets". I wonder if it's too late to define that term for him... There's another guy that sometimes works there, he's out of town, but he's a musician and I think he understands how I work. And he's also acted as a translator at times between me and the owner. I'm crossing my fingers he gets back into town asap, it would help so much to have him there. Thanks again ladies, this is great stuff!

Ahhh. Definitely sounds like in HIS mind, he's hired you for 2 hours -- the same as he might have a waitress or dishwasher for hourly work. You probably cost more per hour than any three other staff people combined, and I'll bet he's feeling good and ripped off when you take your big long breaks all the time, since he doesn't let his other staff do that.

Converting him to the idea of paying a dancer for sets is going to take a while - and may not be possible if he has a dancer willing to do the hourly thing. My advice is to keep driving home the idea of paying per 20 minute set, make clear that you're not an employee like a waitress, you're a business person who has to buy expensive costumes and rehearse on your own time. (Do you ask your waitresses to come to work in $600 outfits? If you did, how much would you have to pay them?)

Be prepared to walk, but don't burn any bridges. He might come around eventually, but I'm guessing he'll need to process this change in thinking for a while and he may need to hear it from more than one dancer before he's willing to shift. The shift is not in his favor, after all!

Lauren:

stardancer: I agree, the 5 minute thing was a bit of a stretch. It would feel really silly and might be even more exhausting than my longer sets/breaks setup.

On another note: if there has been an established show length/rate in the past and this gig lowered that standard- it's undercutting.