Thread: what do you think of a dancer that dances at EVERY restaurant in town?

maybe an exaggeration but what about if you've got at least 4 or 5 regular restaurant gigs under your belt? I have a friend, let's call her friend A, who is a great dancer and is a regular at one restaurant but kind of a regular at 3 or 4 others. she might not be in the other restaurants weekly but at least every other week, so it's a bit more than just a sub-in. she's actually taken a job from my other friend, friend B, who doesn't have any dance job whatsoever and is in desperate need of money. I think both are great dancers (they don't actually know each other) but don't think it's all that fair for friend B (she literally had her job taken from her. she auditioned at the place, got in, but then the people had changed their mind and hired her because she knew the band that was going to play there). this might be in part due to poor communication skills w/the restaurant manager but it got me thinking, how many steady restaurant gigs are just too much?

on the one hand i'm glad friend A is out there in the bd community and doing her thing, hey the more money the better. but on the other hand i feel not enough opportunities are open for other dances in search for a job since there's only so many places one can dance at. and idk what her rates are compared to friend B and if there might be some undercutting going on but that would be a different issue. friend B has actually asked me to tell friend A to basically simmer down since she needed the money more and was there first technically, but i'm not even going to get into that, don't wanna ruin either one's friendship.

am i just being overly sensitive to this situation or what? oh and i have mentioned to friend A about keeping friend B in mind if she needed a sub (she had asked me to sub in one time but i can't dance at restaurants so i recommended friend B).

Personally? I think if you're going to dance professionally, then you should treat it as a business. Not a playground where you expect everyone to share their toys and be fair. If Dancer A is getting a lot of gigs, she's obviously doing well in her marketing and networking. If Dancer B isn't getting gigs, then maybe she should take some cues from Dancer A. It isn't about who needs the money--it's about business.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I see and hear too much back biting, power plays and childishness in the dance world. Just my .02 cents.

In my area, lots of people have several regular restaurant gigs.

It's not A's responsibility to not take work so that B can dance. A successful businessperson cannot be a charity for other people.

I would never dream of going up to the other professionals in my area and telling them to back off b/c I need the money. In fact, I don't presume that I deserve their jobs for any reason. We all need money right now.

If B thinks that A needs to chill, then she needs to talk to her, not you. Stay out of this, b/c it's just going to be drama.

oh yes i'm def. staying out of it lol i was a little taken a back actually by the request to talk to A. and i do agree, obviously dancer A is doing something right but it makes ya wonder how other people are getting work. i would hate to think someone would have to undercut someone to get a gig :-/
and friend A is a nice girl since i have told her to keep friend B in mind and she said she would (my other friend is already a sub-in for her). i guess it's just hard not to feel a little bad for friend B since i know her situation and she is trying..but we'll see what happens

I would guess that Friend A has been doing this longer than friend B and knows the ropes better and probably has built up a regular following crowd.
I don't think undercutting would be the way for ANY dancer to go. That just shows desperation on the dancers part and no respect for the dance rules that go with the business. Tell dancer B to keep her head up. Time can make a difference.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I would guess that Friend A has been doing this longer than friend B and knows the ropes better and probably has built up a regular following crowd.
I don't think undercutting would be the way for ANY dancer to go. That just shows desperation on the dancers part and no respect for the dance rules that go with the business. Tell dancer B to keep her head up. Time can make a difference.

actually friend A hasn't been dancing longer than friend B which is the twist in the story i guess you could say. friend A has been dancing at a restaurant for 1 year, taking bd for 2. do the math, she started dancing for money after only a year of training. the way she has been taught by her instructor is to basically get out there as quick as u can to make money out of it
friend B has been dancing longer and actually started while living in Egypt many years ago. so i don't think it's even a matter of who has been doing this longer, but rather how and why are u doing what ur doing (for money, or for the love of bd first)?

Is Friend A younger and thinner?

When you're dancing as a professional, it's not your business to play nicey nice and make sure everyone gets a gig, in the same way it's not your business at an office to make sure everyone gets the very same salary instead of everyone being paid based on qualifications and responsibilites. When it's your job, you do everything in your power to get ahead so long as it is ethical (i.e. no undercutting). In a regular day job, you wouldn't pass up a promotion you worked hard for because Suzy Deskworker wanted that promotion, too. Dancer A networked and used her connections at a restaurant to get a foot in the door--that's How to Get a Job 101 in the real world, and I don't see why the professional BD world should be any different.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Is Friend A younger and thinner?

lol they're both thin and the same age more or less (one is older than the other by only a year). both are gorgeous :)

Argh this kind of stuff drives me crazy, and I'm learning is very common in the dance world!!!

This isn't just common in the dance world. It's business. Your friend is networking and marketing herself as a dancer, and she's getting the jobs. It's causing some competition between other dancers, but it's still the nature of any business.

Undercutting competition isn't unethical. My day job is in internet marketing, and offering better prices is part of the package. How many times have you seen a business that says "They gave you a cheaper price? We'll give you one even cheaper." When you're selling a product (in this case it's your friends' product is themselves as a dancer), you can either offer a better price than your competition or offer a higher price, but offer something extra or more unique in order to drive people to pay a higher price.

I'm sure it's not fun at all to see your friends in competition like this. Staying out of it is probably your best bet. It's just the nature of business.

Originally Posted by aazura

Personally? I think if you're going to dance professionally, then you should treat it as a business. Not a playground where you expect everyone to share their toys and be fair. If Dancer A is getting a lot of gigs, she's obviously doing well in her marketing and networking. If Dancer B isn't getting gigs, then maybe she should take some cues from Dancer A. It isn't about who needs the money--it's about business.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I see and hear too much back biting, power plays and childishness in the dance world. Just my .02 cents.

agreed

I would think she's very successful.

Yes, this is business, people are trying to make a living here. It's unfair to expect Dancer A to be responsible for generating enough dance opportunities for herself AND Dancer B.

What if Dancer A and Dancer B both owned dress shops at the mall, andl Dancer A was selling lots more dresses? Would we expect her to send half of her customers over to Dancer B in order to be fair? It's just not how business works.

within the dance community, at haflas and student shows, we're all 'playing' together and sharing a hobby. But when we step into the professional dance world, getting paid and trying to earn a living, the rules change drastically.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

In my area, lots of people have several regular restaurant gigs.

It's not A's responsibility to not take work so that B can dance. A successful businessperson cannot be a charity for other people.

I would never dream of going up to the other professionals in my area and telling them to back off b/c I need the money. In fact, I don't presume that I deserve their jobs for any reason. We all need money right now.

If B thinks that A needs to chill, then she needs to talk to her, not you. Stay out of this, b/c it's just going to be drama.

Exactly...and even IF Dancer A passed on some gigs there's no guarantee that they would go to Dancer B...now B is competing with Dancers C, D, and E!

~~Kimahri

Suppose your town had a plumber, let's call him Plumber A, who had an awesome reputation for his skills at unplugging toilets.

Would you expect him to "simmer down" and give away work to a competing plumber simply because the other guy doesn't yet have any plumbing work and "needs" the money?



If there aren't many opportunities in town for regular work, maybe that's a sign that seeking work as a professional dancer is not going to be a lucrative career opportunity, and Dancer B should rethink whether she might be better off entering a different field with more employment opportunity.

what is the protocal in your area?
do all the resturant owners know she works for othets?
is she concidered a house dancer at any of these places?
long ago a russian dancer tried that here.finally all the owners got it, and she was fired from everywhere.

Originally Posted by aazura

Personally? I think if you're going to dance professionally, then you should treat it as a business. Not a playground where you expect everyone to share their toys and be fair. If Dancer A is getting a lot of gigs, she's obviously doing well in her marketing and networking. If Dancer B isn't getting gigs, then maybe she should take some cues from Dancer A. It isn't about who needs the money--it's about business.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I see and hear too much back biting, power plays and childishness in the dance world. Just my .02 cents.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

In my area, lots of people have several regular restaurant gigs.

It's not A's responsibility to not take work so that B can dance. A successful businessperson cannot be a charity for other people.

I would never dream of going up to the other professionals in my area and telling them to back off b/c I need the money. In fact, I don't presume that I deserve their jobs for any reason. We all need money right now.

If B thinks that A needs to chill, then she needs to talk to her, not you. Stay out of this, b/c it's just going to be drama.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Suppose your town had a plumber, let's call him Plumber A, who had an awesome reputation for his skills at unplugging toilets.

Would you expect him to "simmer down" and give away work to a competing plumber simply because the other guy doesn't yet have any plumbing work and "needs" the money?



If there aren't many opportunities in town for regular work, maybe that's a sign that seeking work as a professional dancer is not going to be a lucrative career opportunity, and Dancer B should rethink whether she might be better off entering a different field with more employment opportunity.

Amen to all of these!

This is business not charity. If dancer B cant keep up, then perhaps she needs some lessons in business and marketing. It is ridiculous to expect someone else to slow down so that you can catch up! Then nobody grows and nobody wins. It is dancer B's responsibility to grow and learn and IMPROVE, not sit back and whine because dancer A is getting it right. Thats called "haterism".

I see alot of that, and IMO, the Dancer B's out there need to stop drinking that Haterade for real.

ETA: now if you find out that dancer A is getting gigs because shes sleeping with all the owners or something... than I don't suggest you go down that road... however, most of the time, dancers are rewarded for GOOD business skills and great dancing. If something is missing, then fix it and get to where you want to be.

Im so tired of hearing people hate on successful dancers simply because they are successful.

I think a lot of dancers have trouble passing from the "community" aspect of the bellydance world into the professional business side of it in the way they view that stuff maybe.

Originally Posted by zamora

what is the protocal in your area?
do all the resturant owners know she works for othets?
is she concidered a house dancer at any of these places?
long ago a russian dancer tried that here.finally all the owners got it, and she was fired from everywhere.

i'm actually not sure if the other restaurants know that she takes other gigs at other places. good question! she is the house dancer at one restaurant, the other 3 or 4 she comes either to fill in or she is working on being a regular there every other week or so.

amber_moon-haterism is my new favorite word hahaha

just to clarify, friend B isn't the ***** u all think she is lol they're both sweet girls, i guess she was just frustrated a bit because of the events that she's had to go through especially the last couple of weeks. she's a tough girl tho and she'll make it

i do agree with all that was said above. business is business, i guess we have a tendency to think of more of a sisterhood in the bd community but you guys are right, a gig is a gig. and no she is not sleeping with anyone to get these gigs lol

Originally Posted by Hava77

Undercutting competition isn't unethical. My day job is in internet marketing, and offering better prices is part of the package. How many times have you seen a business that says "They gave you a cheaper price? We'll give you one even cheaper." When you're selling a product (in this case it's your friends' product is themselves as a dancer), you can either offer a better price than your competition or offer a higher price, but offer something extra or more unique in order to drive people to pay a higher price.

Yes, however it's important to note people aren't going into your day job for the sparklies or the applause and attention. Pricing oneself "less than the competition" in a business still means pricing yourself AS A BUSINESS. In belly dance "undercutting" means pricing yourself less than others AND less than what would make "business sense" considering costs and time.

Originally Posted by Amber_moon

This is business not charity. If dancer B cant keep up, then perhaps she needs some lessons in business and marketing. It is ridiculous to expect someone else to slow down so that you can catch up! Then nobody grows and nobody wins. It is dancer B's responsibility to grow and learn and IMPROVE, not sit back and whine because dancer A is getting it right. Thats called "haterism".
I see alot of that, and IMO, the Dancer B's out there need to stop drinking that Haterade for real.
ETA: now if you find out that dancer A is getting gigs because shes sleeping with all the owners or something... than I don't suggest you go down that road... however, most of the time, dancers are rewarded for GOOD business skills and great dancing. If something is missing, then fix it and get to where you want to be.
Im so tired of hearing people hate on successful dancers simply because they are successful.

AmberMoon! Thank you so much for saying that.
Actually, this whole thread has tons of good business sense in it.

Originally Posted by JShane

I think a lot of dancers have trouble passing from the "community" aspect of the bellydance world into the professional business side of it in the way they view that stuff maybe.

Yeah, I'd also venture to say that all this "play nice in the sandbox" tripe is what causes half of our dramas in the first place. If we could all admit that we're trafficing in the free market economy, yet still be able to all go out for margaritas at the end of the day - now THAT would be true community.

But BDers often have an incestuous relationship with their competition. On the one hand, there's this constant pressure to attend every community event and to never disagree with your peers. On the other hand, we feel almost a certain entitlement to get hand-me-downs from our "sisters," forgetting all the while that market demands don't always make this possible. Then, if you're like me - that is, you have a few good friends, but stay away from the "pack" - everybody thinks you're antisocial, snotty, or just plain evil.

Au contraire. I just want to dance. And I want everyone else to get along.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Yes, however it's important to note people aren't going into your day job for the sparklies or the applause and attention. Pricing oneself "less than the competition" in a business still means pricing yourself AS A BUSINESS. In belly dance "undercutting" means pricing yourself less than others AND less than what would make "business sense" considering costs and time.

Yeah, and I think I'd be pretty pissed off if my boss fired me for Suzy Front Desk Receptionist, who offered to do my marketing job for $8/hour. Thing is, large corporations and most small businesses have some sort of H.R. presence that would pretty much make this impossible. In BD, anything goes....

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Yes, however it's important to note people aren't going into your day job for the sparklies or the applause and attention. Pricing oneself "less than the competition" in a business still means pricing yourself AS A BUSINESS.

That's true. No plumber offers to un-clog toilets for free just for the sake of being able to wear the stylish work shirt with their name embroidered on it and the crack-revealing low-rise blue jeans. Nor is the satisfaction of being told "thank-you" by the old guy with the hairy belly sufficient to motivate them to unclog his toilet for free.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

That's true. No plumber offers to un-clog toilets for free just for the sake of being able to wear the stylish work shirt with their name embroidered on it and the crack-revealing low-rise blue jeans. Nor is the satisfaction of being told "thank-you" by the old guy with the hairy belly sufficient to motivate them to unclog his toilet for free.

Nonsense. I personally find myself highly motivated by dislodging poo and T.P. from people's toilets. Especially when it overflows.

Sometimes, I even like to sneak into people's houses, empty an entire box of tampons into their toilet and flush, just so they have no choice but to ask me to plunge their toilet!

.w.:

Seriously....that was a great analogy, Shira.

Originally Posted by Amber_moon

I see alot of that, and IMO, the Dancer B's out there need to stop drinking that Haterade for real.

Haterade!! Love it!!..l;,

I think a lot of dancers have trouble passing from the "community" aspect of the bellydance world into the professional business side of it in the way they view that stuff maybe.

Very well said. Yes, I think this is the key problem in our community. More dancers need to realize that if you do this professionally, you need to do it as a business, not as a past time.

Yeah, I'd also venture to say that all this "play nice in the sandbox" tripe is what causes half of our dramas in the first place. If we could all admit that we're trafficing in the free market economy, yet still be able to all go out for margaritas at the end of the day - now THAT would be true community.

Satin, I would love to have a margarita with you anytime! ..g.:

Originally Posted by JShane

I think a lot of dancers have trouble passing from the "community" aspect of the bellydance world into the professional business side of it in the way they view that stuff maybe.

This is my little personal soapbox, because I think it's the source of a lot of confusion and unhappiness in the BD world.

For those who haven't had to endure my rambling on the topic yet --

BD community = classes, haflas, student recitals, and social evens with other BDers. This is a hobby, a sisterhood, it's fun. All ages, shapes, and sizes welcome. All kinds of costuming are welcome. There's much sharing of hummus and tasty beverages, love and laughter.

Not welcome here: being judgmental of each other's bodies, costuming, or dancing. It's supposed to be fun, warm and loving!!

(this is analogous to women dancing together socially in the Middle East, except that we like to wear costumes and make things a little more formal)

BD Business = Restaurant dancing, teaching, private parties, and all manner of paid gigs. This is the shallow end of Show Biz. Appearance matters, ability matters, and dancers are competitors. It's wonderful to be friendly competitors, but not required. There's not a sisterhood in the biz.

Not welcome here: any sense of entitlement, any expectation that the GP is supposed to change their notions to suit you. Costuming, dancing, appearances that are less than pro are not good for our art form when taken in front of the GP, so they're not welcome here either.

(this is analogous to professional dancers in the ME).

Straddling this line = some workshop shows, festivals, any student performances in front of the GP, many troupes that aren't quite student but aren't quite pro.

Originally Posted by aazura

Satin, I would love to have a margarita with you anytime! ..g.:

I still don't understand how we never crossed paths! You must have left CT just as I was coming back home from school. *scratches head*

You know if you come back to the Nutmeg State, I'll make sure to have a nice frosty 'rita ready for ya!

There's a term in the high-tech industry that applies to the professional side of belly dance: coopetition.

The term means that in *some* business segments, you and the other party are competitors. For example, you both might be trying to secure restaurant and private party gigs. In *other* business segments, you cooperate with each other, such as encouraging your students to come to workshops that the other person is sponsoring.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

There's a term in the high-tech industry that applies to the professional side of belly dance: coopetition.

The term means that in *some* business segments, you and the other party are competitors. For example, you both might be trying to secure restaurant and private party gigs. In *other* business segments, you cooperate with each other, such as encouraging your students to come to workshops that the other person is sponsoring.

OH, Shira, that's PERFECT!!!

Andrea, Nisaa and I are all coopetitors in the St. Louis area, it's a good arrangement!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

This is my little personal soapbox, because I think it's the source of a lot of confusion and unhappiness in the BD world.

For those who haven't had to endure my rambling on the topic yet --

BD community = classes, haflas, student recitals, and social evens with other BDers. This is a hobby, a sisterhood, it's fun. All ages, shapes, and sizes welcome. All kinds of costuming are welcome. There's much sharing of hummus and tasty beverages, love and laughter.

Not welcome here: being judgmental of each other's bodies, costuming, or dancing. It's supposed to be fun, warm and loving!!

(this is analogous to women dancing together socially in the Middle East, except that we like to wear costumes and make things a little more formal)

BD Business = Restaurant dancing, teaching, private parties, and all manner of paid gigs. This is the shallow end of Show Biz. Appearance matters, ability matters, and dancers are competitors. It's wonderful to be friendly competitors, but not required. There's not a sisterhood in the biz.

Not welcome here: any sense of entitlement, any expectation that the GP is supposed to change their notions to suit you. Costuming, dancing, appearances that are less than pro are not good for our art form when taken in front of the GP, so they're not welcome here either.

(this is analogous to professional dancers in the ME).

Straddling this line = some workshop shows, festivals, any student performances in front of the GP, many troupes that aren't quite student but aren't quite pro.

That's pretty much how I would see it (even as an outsider to an extent)

What is nice to see are dancers that can still be friends with each other while being competitive in the professional side. Though it helps to keep egos in check and not have the backstabbing for that to work.

In my line of work, it might suck to lose a job to another photographer; but it's not the end of the world. But to feel like someone stabbed you in the back to nab something can leave some issues on the table that prevent friendship.