Thread: Tired subject, undercutting....

I know this has been talked to death so I guess it is more of an vent in this case.
What to do, other than just go about your business (which is my conclusion, even though it rubs me the wrong way), with a "dancer" who makes huge claims about being the best, doing this that and the other, blogs about why does a belly dancer costs so much? Then states on a website $50 per set?
Heck you can't pry me out of my house for $50!
It just amazes me! Market youreslf as big time then undercut? Not sure why a dancer would not want the going rate?..c::
Sorry just a vent.
So I guess my real question is:
When this has happened in your area how did it turn out in the long run?
My business plan never changes due to unprofessional behavior that comes up here but I am curious about how things turn out in areas that have been talked about in the past.

Good luck! I think were all on the same page here except when new people come in and undercut (usually unknowingly). Then you just point out the going rate & continue being the best you can!

Originally Posted by faaria

I know this has been talked to death so I guess it is more of an vent in this case.
What to do, other than just go about your business (which is my conclusion, even though it rubs me the wrong way), with a "dancer" who makes huge claims about being the best, doing this that and the other, blogs about why does a belly dancer costs so much? Then states on a website $50 per set?
Heck you can't pry me out of my house for $50!
It just amazes me! Market youreslf as big time then undercut? Not sure why a dancer would not want the going rate?..c::
Sorry just a vent.
So I guess my real question is:
When this has happened in your area how did it turn out in the long run?
My business plan never changes due to unprofessional behavior that comes up here but I am curious about how things turn out in areas that have been talked about in the past.

It usually just serves to lower the fees all round, because you have to maintain fee standards to keep them worth dancing for. Undercutting smacks of desperation in my books. To be that desperate to lower your worthy fee to cut out another dancer may sound like good business, but in fact its not because in the long run everybody suffers.

Oh no this person has been around for awhile,not new and can certainly see the going rates. Advertises as "affordable".
Guess there is not much to do. It does seem desporate to me as well, what can you do? Just irritates the heck out of me to try and get a fair wage and have people out there who will dance for next to nothing (or it seems sometimes, nothing).

When this happened to me in a restaurant the owner kept paying me 100% of my rate and the other girl 25% of my rate. He didn't call me any less. He only used her when I wasn't available.

ETA: Sometimes people *do* know they're getting what they're paying for.

Thanks Eshe!
I will just keep on doing what I do and not dwell on it! If you want cheap you don't get GOOD and if you want GOOD it isn't cheap!
Thanks your post made me feel better!

Your post made me feel better too, Eshe!

Originally Posted by faaria

Oh no this person has been around for awhile,not new and can certainly see the going rates. Advertises as "affordable".
Guess there is not much to do. It does seem desporate to me as well, what can you do? Just irritates the heck out of me to try and get a fair wage and have people out there who will dance for next to nothing (or it seems sometimes, nothing).

Yeah, I know....a small handful of people around here post rates $50-100 south of the going rate on their websites. I'd like to think that prospective clients can tell the difference between bargain basement presentation and the real deal, unfortunately, I've also discovered that I give the consumer way too much credit sometimes. *shrug* Just keep being better than them, I suppose.

On the bright side, this post is giving me inspiration for a new slogan: "Carrara Nour: You can't afford me."

I'm not sure I would give the credit either really.

Funny thing is rates in my area are not all that high so when undercut they are next to NOTHING!

I don't see WHY you wouldn't want to make the going rate!

Oh I'd save up to see you, your pic is lovely!

I am keeping in my head that it is the difference between gourmet and take out pizza for your guests, which do you want?

I think there is no way to get rid of undercutting totally.

Sometimes I hear the dancers around here talking about it as if it is a problem with bellydancing b/c of how "new" a profession it is (I guess small biz america wise). But it happens in every business. Why do you shop at walmart instead of Sears? Why do people to go costco instead of the regular grocery store? Why do people by clothes at TJMaxx instead of at Macy's? Why do people hire photographers to shoot a wedding for $250 instead of $2500?

Sure, sometimes someone is over charging, but at a lot of places, people get better quality products or services, yet still go to the bargain basement place. Why?

1. Maybe it's not that important to the buyer... Yea, you might go to walmart and buy their brand cereal b/c maybe you don't care about cereal...but maybe you go to the mac booth to buy your makeup b/c quality is worth it to you in that regard. So maybe the person hiring the dancer for $50 wouldn't be worth dancing for anyhow. I know it's not worth me trying to talk someone into a wedding that thinks a couple grand is too much.

2. Creating a community helps. I don't mean the type of community you guys naturally have with students, haflas, etc. But a professional community, where you can have friendly competition without everyone hating everyone for backstabbing. I know as I got into photography more and joined some of the professional organizations online, there was plenty of talk there and in books you might buy on photo biz about how hard photographers have worked to get the national average for wedding shoots at 2K+ and if you were a professional quality shooter doing them for less, the you are hurting the community. That might not effect everyone, but I know I didn't want to stick out as the sore thumb in a community as I grew my biz.

3. And that means to an extent, being harsh to the undercutter community wise. Blackball them as a community. If they want to operate on their own, then let them. I don't mean backstab them or be nasty; but if they express interest in being part of the community, explain you position and that if they wish to participate, then they can't be hurting the business community as they do.

The difference between say retail: Wal-mart vs Macys is that BOTH are professional businesses; meaning they are treating their professional as a self-sustaining business that must charge enough to cover costs and make a profit.
Professional dancers do the same.
"Shwarma-r-us" dancers do not.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

The difference between say retail: Wal-mart vs Macys is that BOTH are professional businesses; meaning they are treating their professional as a self-sustaining business that must charge enough to cover costs and make a profit.
Professional dancers do the same.
"Shwarma-r-us" dancers do not.

Not to mention, on a more abstract level, Wal-Mart has developed a brand that can be summed up solely with the word "bargain." Their slogan ("Save money, live better"), every "falling prices" point-of-purchase display in the store, that stupid Zorro smiley face slashing prices in commercials...it all adds up to a cohesive image that screams "value!" in every world language.

Now, picture a belly dancer in a Bella, gliding across a stage to Enta Omri. She's dripping in jewels. Her costume costs more than most people's wedding gowns. What about bellydance has anything to do with Bargain Basement prices? Aren't we supposed to communicate a lush, opulent, mysterious image?

How we value ourselves - and the value with which others perceive us - has a lot to do with how we price ourselves...

Just keep chanting to yourself "I don't even get into my costume for under $150 let alone dance." It won't help you get jobs but will help keep things in persepctive =)

Oh, I don't change my rates in response to, that is for sure, I'd rather stay home!
It just amazes me that someone who bills herself as a great dancer, blah blah blah would do anything for $50.
All your thoughts have been very helpful, thanks!
I'll just keep on doing what I do!
Too many substandard dancers buying a hip scarf and a cheap bra and promoting themselves as Pros for sure! Funny thing is, here, some people believe them! So it's an up hill battle against undercutting and just plain bad dancing. Oh by no means all, there are LOVELY dancers here, they just don't seem to be so vocal about their greatness while undercutting everyone, they just work and continue learning and growing as dancers. (don't get me worng I'm NO BDSS myself! But at least I try to give clients good dancing and all that comes with it, pro behavior, pro costume, pro dancing, and YES pro cost!)
Thanks, I can always count on bhuzzers to bring it back to sanity!

Originally Posted by JShane

I think there is no way to get rid of undercutting totally.

Sometimes I hear the dancers around here talking about it as if it is a problem with bellydancing b/c of how "new" a profession it is (I guess small biz america wise). But it happens in every business. Why do you shop at walmart instead of Sears? Why do people to go costco instead of the regular grocery store? Why do people by clothes at TJMaxx instead of at Macy's? Why do people hire photographers to shoot a wedding for $250 instead of $2500?

3. And that means to an extent, being harsh to the undercutter community wise. Blackball them as a community. If they want to operate on their own, then let them. I don't mean backstab them or be nasty; but if they express interest in being part of the community, explain you position and that if they wish to participate, then they can't be hurting the business community as they do.

If only professional belly dancers were as wealthy as Walmart....then we could afford to cut our prices and be 'cheap'. But then, we'd be doing it for a hobby or pin money, wouldn't we? Which truth, unfortunately, and in my experience, is applied in general to undercutters. Most of them do it on the cheap because they don't have to do it for a living, or if they do, they have partners who help them pay the bills. Why do you think guilds are formed and unions? There should be some kind of union for pro belly dancers so that undercutting is wiped out.

The tiny community of pro dancers have a big enough struggle making half decent money and keeping the market financially afloat for all concerned never mind offering bargain prices like a seller of melons in a market! I don't consider myself comparable to a packet of 6 budget burgers or a set of plastic garden deckchairs. Undercutters are, IMHO, doing themselves and others a grievous disservice.,m::

Originally Posted by faaria

It just amazes me that someone who bills herself as a great dancer, blah blah blah would do anything for $50.

Because big egos demand praise, and if that praise can be gotten for $50, well, that'll have to do......l;,

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

If only professional belly dancers were as wealthy as Walmart....then we could afford to cut our prices and be 'cheap'. But then, we'd be doing it for a hobby or pin money, wouldn't we? Which truth, unfortunately, and in my experience, is applied in general to undercutters. Most of them do it on the cheap because they don't have to do it for a living, or if they do, they have partners who help them pay the bills. Why do you think guilds are formed and unions? There should be some kind of union for pro belly dancers so that undercutting is wiped out.

The tiny community of pro dancers have a big enough struggle making half decent money and keeping the market financially afloat for all concerned never mind offering bargain prices like a seller of melons in a market! I don't consider myself comparable to a packet of 6 budget burgers or a set of plastic garden deckchairs. Undercutters are, IMHO, doing themselves and others a grievous disservice.,m::

You jumped totally over my point.
Wasn't comparing bellydancers to wal-mart, was comparing bargain shoppers to bargain shoppers. Whether it's someone that shops at walmart or someone that hires cheap bellydancers.
you might want to re-read it
I was complaining about bargain shoppers and places that offer that crap...i hate walmart

I do want to add, you kinda made the point I was talking about for me though.
Doesn't matter what you consider yourself worth, matters what the shopper considers you worth. I said it's not worth it working for someone who thinks you aren't worth what you are worth. You said you don't compare yourself to a pack of budget burgers.... my point was... why try to work for someone that does.

Also seemed like you ignored the rest of my post, since I went on to talk about how undercutting sucks and they need to be blackballed from the community.