Thread: Are we good organizers ?

Come on, I know we are: many of you manage your gigs, dance studio or school, troupe, dance company, or even an entertainmeint agency, let alone events, students recruitment and so on； we study business matters and exchange ideas here in "Business of Belly Dance".

On the other side there are dancers who never intended to be and never wanted to become "business people". Yet they are...

What made you take charge of your business ? What made you good at it ? What was the kick start which made you stop relying on managers, entertainment agencies, other dancers ? What is a background of a dancer becoming good manager and organizer ? Can you show me the path ?

Any personal experiences ? Any recomended reading ? Any strategies ?

How do I beat anybody who says belly dancers are not good in organizing their business ? I`d like to hear a good argumentation. (I am realizing that the best argument is past succes.)

I had been in business for myself for 10 years before I came to bellydance, so that side of things was waay easier for me than the actual dancing.

I learned most of my business skills on the fly -- Small Business Administration was really helpful. Other than that, tons of reading: books, magazines and websites. Reading about things specific to my industry, but also reading about business in general. Oh, I also used to find people who were doing the thing I needed to learn about, but in another field (not a competitor), and offer to take them to lunch if they'd let me pick their brains. I'd go in with specific questions and always learned SO much that way!!

When a dancer goes out on her own as a performer, or starts to teach, she's usually creating a (very) small business. (there are some exceptions). Some dancers don't recognize this, and they think of themselves as an employee of the restaurant where they dance or the facility where they teach. I think success comes more easily to those who DO recognize that they're in business and start learning about that end of things as quickly as possible.

I worked in a corporate environment for over a decade before I started dancing. Over the years, my job duties included media planning, technology, budgeting, employee training and analyzing research data among other things.

When I started dancing professionally, I drew on all of my previous business experience. A lot of my clients were small business owners, and I was very aware of the pitfalls from working with them. Many of the analyses and budget formats I use for my dance business are taken directly from ones that I developed for my previous employer's business.

I don't think that Belly Dancers are any more likely to run a disorganized business that anyone else. I used to work with a lot of traditional franchise owners, and a great number of them did not have the first clue about how to run a business. Running a small business successful is very difficult and requires a lot of different skills and inner resources.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I don't think that Belly Dancers are any more unlikely to run a disorganized business that anyone else.

That is what I think too.

How do I beat anybody who says belly dancers are not good in organizing their business ?

Well I'd say Carolena Nerriccio should be doing pretty nicely thank you. She has effectively franchise-marketed her own brand. To teach ATS you *have* to buy Carolena's DVDs or train with her. To teach ATS at a higher level you *have* to go to Carolena. To get the coveted branding you *have* to go to Carolena.

Not dumb. Not bad management from what I can see.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Well I'd say Carolena Nerriccio should be doing pretty nicely thank you. She has effectively franchise-marketed her own brand. To teach ATS you *have* to buy Carolena's DVDs or train with her. To teach ATS at a higher level you *have* to go to Carolena. To get the coveted branding you *have* to go to Carolena.

Not dumb. Not bad management from what I can see.

Good example.

Suhaila and Keti Sharif are some more examples of successful branding. Nourhan's Sharifwear is also a good example of success in the oriental dance business.

Raqia Hassan created an Egyptian dance teaching empire, before her there wasn't a dance "school" in Egypt to learn raqs sharqi, and of course nobody could deny the popularity of Ahlan Wa Sahlan.

This is depressing. I have to think "branding" at work--I don't want to think it about dance. OK, I can recognize an Eman. I can guess sometimes who dancer X borrowed certain "signature moves" from. But I hate "the ten basic moves" and "hot new combos" prop tricks, and all of that.

I realize teachers and performers have got to make a living and stand out from the pack. But branding ..... please, no.

P.S. I just watched the Suhaila clip where she did her glute shimmy seated on the Ellen DeGeneres show. Ellen is making faces and the audience is cheering. Suhaila looks quite happy about it so maybe who am I to say.

..g.:

Well she insists that ATS is hers and everything else is ITS.

I think if I just randomly started teaching something and calling it ATS it would not go down well. Moreover, anyone who has an interest in tribal is eventually going to query an "ATS" teacher who has never studied with Carolena, never purchased FatChance DVDs/vids, fails to teach the appropriate movements and cues.

well, for me the surprise was not so much having to be an organiser, nor being good at it, but actually that i am enjoying having my own business. it's something i would never had dreamed would suit me.

Thank you for input everybody.

Let me summarize replies:

1) any previous business experience counts,

2) branding is an interesting direction to look to.

When I started the thread I forgot to mention that most of professionals among us manage their advertising campaigns, world wide web presentation, media and PR, online shops, CD/DVD releases... let me name a few. I am sure there are many more duties our customers (students, audience) don`t see yet it must be fullfilled (insurance, financial controlling, bookkeeping, rent agreement, etc.).

I don`t mean to be depressing, I want to debate if bellydance business is at the best when managed by dancers which is the case I bet. I mean the proceeds go back to development and promotion of bellydance industry.
Then, there is possibility of "outsourcing": to hire a business person to take care of the business part of your bellydance emporium. For what part of business is such arrangement most effective ? Promotion ? PR ? or just bookeeping ?
Last possibility is to be hired by a business as fitness studio or a dance school but is this the best arrangement ? Well, not always, it depends on many aspects I suppose.

So what do you all think ? What is best for you ? What is best for belly dance ?

I think that the reason the bellydance business is often managed by dancers is that you have to be passionate about the dance to persist. There are so many obstacles, not least low pay, even for those reaching the dizzy heights of stardom - it's amazing how far the money doesn't go when you have to divide it by 12 months of the year.

By definition, a business person who is not passionate about the dance would be better spending their time on something else.

Yes I know there are some notable exceptions to what I've said here, but I think this is valid for 80% of people practicing in our field.

I think this is the nature of small business.

When I had a local magazine, I handled all those functions -- website, bookkeeping, billing, ad production, writing, editing, insurance, etc.

I think the same is true of nearly all small businesses.

Most bellydancers are running microbusinesses -- most of us are what I think of as 'self-employed' rather than 'empire building.'

There are a few dancers who are running businesses large enough to consider hiring business help -- Andrea Farese, for instance, handles Aziza, Karen Barbee, etc.

But most of us, like any entertainer, mom & pop restaurant, artist/craftsman, newsletter, niche website, remodeling company, interior decorator etc etc etc are running microbusinesses and have to handle everything ourselves.

The average bellydancer, teacher, and/or studio owner isn't going to bring in enough revenue to support more than one family.

Another thought -- I've long believed that the horrible failure rates of small businesses (what is it, something like 75% don't survive their first 5 years?) is because the small business owner has to have skill in their field AND all the marketing and business skill to run the business.

It happens all the time -- a great cook wants to open a restaurant, a great auto mechanic wants to open a shop, a great fashionista wants to open a boutique... but the marketing, customer service, website, bookkeeping, and other business functions are more than they bargained for.

To succeed in a small service business, you need both. Talent/skill in the service you're providing AND great business and marketing skills.

This reply was moved to another thread. See Laurens post below.

There's a thread about the ATS/ITS debate

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...e-ats-its.html

The point, Angela, is that Carolena has branded very successfully. She trains people, and there is a particular structure to the way she trains. To have her certification you must adhere to certain requirements. To learn how to do ATS *somebody somewhere along the line* has to have learned from Carolena or from Carolena's training materials. As well as this, there is extensive branding within the look. A *specific* skirt, specific pants, specific choli, which you *can* purchase the patterns for elsewhere or get via Carolena. The choli is referred to as the FCBD choli. You can get FCBD zills. It might be different in America but internationally - and very widely on the internet, I might add, based on what I've seen - ATS is seen as essentially synonymous with Carolena and FCBD style, although offshoots can and do occur a lot. Other variants tend to be portrayed as offshoots, not alternatives that "evolved" alongside it.

To me, that's an example of extremely good branding.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I think this is the nature of small business.

When I had a local magazine, I handled all those functions -- website, bookkeeping, billing, ad production, writing, editing, insurance, etc.

I think the same is true of nearly all small businesses.

Most bellydancers are running microbusinesses -- most of us are what I think of as 'self-employed' rather than 'empire building.'

There are a few dancers who are running businesses large enough to consider hiring business help -- Andrea Farese, for instance, handles Aziza, Karen Barbee, etc.

But most of us, like any entertainer, mom & pop restaurant, artist/craftsman, newsletter, niche website, remodeling company, interior decorator etc etc etc are running microbusinesses and have to handle everything ourselves.

The average bellydancer, teacher, and/or studio owner isn't going to bring in enough revenue to support more than one family.

I totally agree with this. I used to work with a set of non-chain tire shop dealers, and almost without question they were run as Lauren outlined above. Husband ran the shop, wife did the books, adult son Timmy rotated tires, etc. You just don't have the money to hire outside help.

Sorry

Don't cross the threads! ..g.:

Can we discuss whether Carolena is allowed to own the dance style she created on the thread that's about that topic?

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...e-ats-its.html

I don't say this as a rule about all bellydancers, because obviously I haven't met them all...but all the ones I've been around in this area drive me crazy with the disorganization.

Maybe b/c I came from a business field first and then got into an artistic job (photography) It sticks out more. (And I'm OCD organized) And I also think the comfort level of performers being in front of people perhaps makes them more able to feel ready than I would. But I always see the dancers here running late (even though they always end up on time somehow), never seems like they practice enough (yet still pull off a fine performance), etc.

So I don't know how to judge it from my perspective. But it kills my nerves, I'll tell you that.

Is it true that you are certified in her dance style?

Me. A tribal dancer. Are you INSANE?

Uh, no. I'm not certified in any tribal dance style, have not studied tribal other than academically, do not dance tribal, do not particularly enjoy most tribal, am not now nor have I ever been a tribal dancer.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I'm sorry, I do not agree with this statement. Anyone can teach ATS and you do not have to use her method......

Anyone? I could not teach that! ..l;,

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Branding FCBD is different from trying to lay claim on a style of dance. Domba, Gypsy Caravan are considered ATS, and many troupes have developed from that. She can brand FCBD looks and methodology, but to say that is the only valid form of ATS? Not!!!!

Is it true that you are certified in her dance style?

I might be playing with fire but I am going to tell something cheeky for what I might bear consequences. I am not affraid of it, here it is: I don´t consider ATS to be belly dance. So it causes me no problem.

Originally Posted by Michaela

I don`t mean to be depressing, I want to debate if bellydance business is at the best when managed by dancers which is the case I bet. I mean the proceeds go back to development and promotion of bellydance industry.
Then, there is possibility of "outsourcing": to hire a business person to take care of the business part of your bellydance emporium. For what part of business is such arrangement most effective ? Promotion ? PR ? or just bookeeping ?
Last possibility is to be hired by a business as fitness studio or a dance school but is this the best arrangement ? Well, not always, it depends on many aspects I suppose.

So what do you all think ? What is best for you ? What is best for belly dance ?

My own personal journey to running my bellydance business entirely by myself was thus: I started out teaching for other studios, or as a contractor to gyms, etc, because I didn't feel confident in doing all the marketing, administration, etc myself. I was still learning how to teach, so adding the business side to it would have been too many learning curves all at once.

But after a while, I realised that the gym had little idea how to promote a bellydance class, couldn't answer potential students' questions, and didn't feel as much incentive as I did to keep the classes going. So gradually I took over my own marketing, first out of necessity, and then out of choice.

I think a key reason why many of us market ourselves is because we are the product, and no-one knows the product so well as ourselves! Also, because we are living off our sales (of ourself), our incentive to do a good job of this is always greater than the incentive to anyone else. Personally, I also prefer to handle all gig sales myself because I want to get a good feel for the job and decide whether I really want to do it or not. I have to go out to the dodgy bachelor party if I sell such a gig, whereas an agent never has to face the reality in the same way as I do.

...back to my own journey...

When I decided I wanted to try to make a living entirely from my dancing, I took a cold, hard look at the sums. Reality: I cannot make a living if I don't earn maximum profits on each and every job. I don't earn maximum profits if I am paid a set fee for teaching or have to fork out a commission on gigs. By this stage, I'd got a feel for all the marketing/admin side and realised I could do it well. I also had enough experience to know how not to make a loss. So I was happy to take on all the risk in order to retain all the money.

So then I got to the stage where I could earn myself a living, if I did most things myself. The next step to building up an empire would require letting go - there comes a point where the only way to expand your business is to oursource some admin, employ other teachers/performers, etc. Then your job becomes quite different - perhaps being the face of the brand, overseeing the empire, but doing less of the actual grunt work, or face-to-face teaching/performing.

Personally, I haven't wanted to go this extra step. I am too lazy to take on all the extra work that building an empire requires, and have a really hard time delegating! Even when I really, really should - like doing my horrid accounts.

As for bellydancers being good or bad at business, I think that is very individual. Like many on this thread, I came from a corporate and business background and got into dance second. But some dancers have no natural business acumen or never studied or worked in the business fields. It does kinda suck that, to be financially successful dancers, we do really need business skills. Learning to dance is only the beginning.

Originally Posted by JShane

Maybe b/c I came from a business field first and then got into an artistic job (photography) It sticks out more.

This is a good point.

People who are artists first sometimes hesitate to make steps towards organizing big events or even marketing themselves... that is partially why I started this thread.

I like Caroline´s sentence about being passionate about dance... how true.
Or maybe some manager might be passionate about ... a dancer .. perhaps ?

I hoped that Bhuzzers who organize big events like intensive courses and festivals would chime in and confirm what part of management work they are outsourcing if any.

I can understand small businesses are family run. Then, when there is a bigger event time dancers just help each other, right ?
Anybody getting help from students ? On what positions ? Stage hands, ticket and merchandise sales - what other positions ?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Don't cross the threads! ..g.:

Can we discuss whether Carolena is allowed to own the dance style she created on the thread that's about that topic?

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...e-ats-its.html

Sometimes a topic will cover two things. Someone brought up branding your business, but just for you I moved my response to the other thread.

Thank you Jewel for your input. It´s deep night in Australia right now, isn´t it ?

Your description of taking the extra step through outsourcing is interesting, I was thinking in similar way...

... and congratulations to you and Artemisia on your business success.

[QUOTE=Michaela;373543]Thank you Jewel for your input. It´s deep night in Australia right now, isn´t it ?

QUOTE]

Ha ha ha, I was avoiding going to sleep right when I knew I had to get up early. And now I'm awake again and back online procrastinating about doing what I have to do for the day. It helps to bellydance if you're a night owl!

On the question of what to outsource on running events, I've run several small-time events (concerts, a few workshops), so not big ones. But I would say you have to outsource many jobs on the night simply because you can't do everything. At my concert, for eg, I prefer to assign all jobs to others(checking tickets, seating patrons, selling stuff, DJing), so I'm free to deal with the countless unplannable 'stuff' that pops up, like incorrect seating, late dancers causing a change in program, etc.

When I've seen big festivals run I've seen a lot of jobs done by fellow dance volunteers that make use of their particular talents - such as building the festival website or handling all the tickets or accounts. These are jobs that can be bitten off in large chunks, so lend themselves well to outsourcing. But I haven't seen this done by paid staff, just dedicated volunteers.

I guess with my own classes I 'outsource' all the admin at class. I have student volunteers who take all the payments, etc, to leave the teachers (incl. me) free to teach. Again, that's kind of because I physically can't do all things at once. The books come back to me at the end of the day and I process all the payments in my office.