Thread: Need your help and advice please

Hi,

I'm never on here but I feel coming here every time I feel stuck.
Things are starting to roll really well for me and starting to get bookings a'lot of them.. the bad news is I don't know how to talk business and I feel I don't want to cheat people-even though its my art that will be out there when i perform.

Don not know anything about costs and how to draw a contract.

What are the charges specially like Arabian night, Asian nights etc. Weddings, Parties and so on..

seriously when they ask me for rates i get tongue tied.

help!!

Hi there!

Don't ever feel guilt or that you're cheating anyone. This isn't about being nice, it's about a business. No one will dislike you for charging what you are worth. As soon as you feel like you're not worth it, you've lost the battle.

Samira's website has loads of info that will help:
belly dance rates
samirashuruk bellydance links

Also, check with other dancers in your area to see what's going on.


As far as talking business, try hitting up the library for a book on negotiating. I got some great tips from another dancer that I will try to dig up and post.

Good luck!

You could try getting yourself signed up with an Agency such as Tracey Gibbs' Taste of Cairo, or Kay Taylor's agency. Or find yourself an agent to do your negotiating for you.

UK:
Private parties: ** £100 - up to 15 mins ** £150 - up to 20 mins in 2 sets with costume change ** £50 - up to 10 mins
Restaurant: **£50-£55 for two hours total time in the restaurant, one hour total dance time, broken into 15 minute sets
with breaks in between. One costume only. **Private lessons - £30 / hr per person **Workshops / classes - £60-70 / hr

Thats what i got from the site you sent me LeylaFahada but does events consider private party?

Its Asian night TV channel 4 will be there and Radio stations..not sure how much to charge him and for how many minutes.

sometimes you get people looking at you like expecting you do it for free.

Originally Posted by Immanbellystylin

UK:
Thats what i got from the site you sent me LeylaFahada but does events consider private party?
Its Asian night TV channel 4 will be there and Radio stations..not sure how much to charge him and for how many minutes.

Consider events like a private party. Some corporate events in fact have a very big budget and you can charge more. Events with a long anticipated wait around time (usually events involving more people) you should charge more for. Don't undervalue yourself, your time and the art. ..g.:

Originally Posted by Immanbellystylin

sometimes you get people looking at you like expecting you do it for free.

No kidding! It's really obnoxious. I know people don't think about all the time, money and effort that goes into it, but I don't show up at my desk job in jeans a t shirt to eat doughnuts for free, so why would I get all glammed up and work my butt off for nothing?

I agree with Samira (who I'm sure you noticed is the same Samira whose website I linked) about counting events as private parties.

Two other notes (and I'm only pointing them out b/c I didn't know at first): I don't know about where you live, but where I am, weddings and holidays are double. Maybe some other UK dancers can chime in here?

Don't let anyone try to convince you to do half a set for half the pay. It's not a per minute charge. You may choose to offer different packages for different times or something, but taking a 1/2 pay cut is a lot!

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

No kidding! It's really obnoxious. I know people don't think about all the time, money and effort that goes into it, but I don't show up at my desk job in jeans a t shirt to eat doughnuts for free, so why would I get all glammed up and work my butt off for nothing?

I agree with Samira (who I'm sure you noticed is the same Samira whose website I linked) about counting events as private parties.


Don't let anyone try to convince you to do half a set for half the pay. It's not a per minute charge. You may choose to offer different packages for different times or something, but taking a 1/2 pay cut is a lot!

lol!! I just realized oh sorry Samira i think my head was spinning..yah thank you guys ive started putting rates down and Google but the only information is the one you guys sent me.. I want to make sure i draw up a contract too for extra time they do decide to keep me.

thank you a lot for your help and advice..xxx

Imman, there have been SO many threads in the 'business of bellydance' forum that might help you. People have even shared their contracts. You might want to spend a little time just skimming and reading there.

If you've never been in business before, just preparing yourself mentally for the amazing number of people who think you should dance for free, or cheap, or for exposure or tips.. one dancer was asked if she'd trade her services for elk meat!!!!

People sometimes balk at our rates, and when you're not used to responding to that it can get discouraging.

In your own mind, you remember the time, money and effort that you've put into learning your craft and collecting costumes and music.

But the customer doesn't care about that. They want to compare your rate to what THEY make at their job per hour. But you're not working for them 40 hours a week, and you're not an employee. In your own mind, compare your rates to other self-employed pros who have to buy their own materials and pay for their own training. Plumbers, for instance, don't work for the same hourly rate as an employee.

I compare my rates to other party entertainers. Clowns, magicians, DJs etc. When I had trouble holding my rates early on, my mantra in my mind was 'I'm worth as much as a clown. I'm worth as much as a clown. I'm worth as much as a clown.' Sounds silly, but it really did help me keep my perspective and hold firm on my rates!

Experienced dancers will tell you that the people who insist on getting you for a lower rate are nearly always the same ones who treat you badly once you get there....want you to wait 45 minutes before you go on, don't give you a nice place to change or offer you a glass of water, don't tip at all, etc. And the 'exposure' thing is a crock most of the time, since anyone who wants to hire you will be asking the host of this event how much you cost, and he's going to say you'll dance for free! Who needs that kind of exposure?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Imman, there have been SO many threads in the 'business of bellydance' forum that might help you. People have even shared their contracts. You might want to spend a little time just skimming and reading there.

If you've never been in business before, just preparing yourself mentally for the amazing number of people who think you should dance for free, or cheap, or for exposure or tips.. one dancer was asked if she'd trade her services for elk meat!!!!

People sometimes balk at our rates, and when you're not used to responding to that it can get discouraging.

In your own mind, you remember the time, money and effort that you've put into learning your craft and collecting costumes and music.

But the customer doesn't care about that. They want to compare your rate to what THEY make at their job per hour. But you're not working for them 40 hours a week, and you're not an employee. In your own mind, compare your rates to other self-employed pros who have to buy their own materials and pay for their own training. Plumbers, for instance, don't work for the same hourly rate as an employee.

I compare my rates to other party entertainers. Clowns, magicians, DJs etc. When I had trouble holding my rates early on, my mantra in my mind was 'I'm worth as much as a clown. I'm worth as much as a clown. I'm worth as much as a clown.' Sounds silly, but it really did help me keep my perspective and hold firm on my rates!

Experienced dancers will tell you that the people who insist on getting you for a lower rate are nearly always the same ones who treat you badly once you get there....want you to wait 45 minutes before you go on, don't give you a nice place to change or offer you a glass of water, don't tip at all, etc. And the 'exposure' thing is a crock most of the time, since anyone who wants to hire you will be asking the host of this event how much you cost, and he's going to say you'll dance for free! Who needs that kind of exposure?

Hi Lauren, amazing things you have said it has made me think about it now seriously. As i did dance once for a club and it was exactly what you have said "no place to change, no water, the stage was way dirty and nutty from alcohol and on top of that he did not pay me and I had to chase him till I gave up..thank you so much for your input I will start thinking the same way. lots of kisses Imman

Hi - Check out my rates too on Caroline Edinburgh belly dancer, Raqs Sharqi and Oriental dance Edinburgh as you are nearby this should be a good guide. I know a lot of fire performers and Jugglers in this area, and used this in my calculations, also I checked with a few local belly dancers to see that it matched up with the prevailing rates that they use. Good luck, and hope to see you at one of my haflas sometime :-)

Yep, follow Lauren's advice and skim through past posts - I'm sure there's lots here that will help you.

I, too, used to find negotiating rates hard. I took a tip from other Bhuzzers and now have a schedule of rates pinned by my phone. It has really helped me stick to my guns when negotiating (or rather, stating my rate and *not* negotiating).

The most useful thing for me was sitting down and nutting out what different types of gigs were worth to me. I had to think about the effort that goes into each gig, what things should require a surcharge, etc (eg: late bookings, waiting time, travel). Now when I'm quoting a price I know that it makes sense, because I previously put all that thought into it, so I feel much more comfortable sticking with my rates.

And for some reason, having that schedule by the phone means I can comfortably say "I'm sorry, that's our set fee and I'm unable to alter it".