Thread: When is volunteering too much?

Some students of mine have recently formed their own "troupe" and volunteer at various nursing homes and adult day care centers. One of the students was a volunteer at these types of places for many years before she started taking class, and once she started dancing she started doing little performances for her patients. Now, she's organized about 5 students to join her, and they do shows at the nursing homes for free.

These students are VERY beginner....not ready for any type of paid gig whatsoever. I am not trying to be a meanie and say "NO, you can't volunteer for old people." My students are absolutely having the best time, they LOVE their "audience", and it looks like their audience is having a blast (I've seen pictures).

My question is - when is this too much?? They are regularly scheduling shows at different nursing homes for free (like, once a week). I get PAID to perform at two adult day care centers once a month. Of course, I give them a huge discount, but I'm still getting paid. I don't think that adult day care centers are charity events - patients pay to go there, they have a budget for entertainment - that's what the patients pay for! But this student was volunteering there long before she started dancing there - am I to tell her that she has to start charging for her services? I just feel like these are venues that would pay for entertainers, and by doing all these "volunteer" jobs, they are taking potentially paying jobs away from other dancers.

What would bhuzzers do?

i dont think you can do very much. if you have a good relationship with this student you can share your concerns (like saying that you also dance at homes, but get paid to do so, and tell her you'd hate for her to be taken advantage off, etc, ), and you can try to build information about the business of dance into your classes generally, but i'm afraid that's about it...

Artemisia

I volunteered to dance, with my kids, at my grandfather's nursing home when I was first starting out. My troupe director told me that it was OK to dance there, since it was a favor for a relative and I'd have been donating/volunteering regardless.

But she nipped me in the bud, so to speak, and made clear that high-end nursing/retirement homes were a big part of her business and that if I volunteered to dance at them I'd be taking business away from my own troupe.

There are dingy nursing homes that don't have an entertainment budget and there are luxurious retirement communities that spend more on fresh flowers daily than they would to hire my whole troupe, and everything in between. There ought to be a simple way to tell the difference.

i have a friend who used to schedule bders for a series of retirement homes /managed care homes every year. i was always the guest of her troupe. she never charged cause she figured it would be a reduced rate that would break down to uhh $10 bucks a dancer or less. at times there would be 6-8 of us. she felt giving us a few dollars was more insulting that telling us it was an act of charity. she would take us out to dinner after & pick up the tab.

i'm taking this over this year cause she's quit & i'm leaving it alone.these are for students & i do think are good practice. we ran them like a showcase & mostly make them solo.

my one & only experience with a home calling is they didn't want to pay & play the guilt card that i should donate. i didn't do it. when it's MEEE alone i try to get paid.

i don't know anybody in our area doing this so i don't feel i'm under cutting.

not much dancing in our area so it gives my people something to do. tina

The "already volunteering" aspect makes it tricky. At the best of times, it's tough to explain about "free shows" and "undercutting" to those thinking about, or already involved in, those activities. A number of dance teachers I know have taken to discussing these, and other ethics topics, as early as the beginner level classes, and I think that's the real, long term solution.
For your situation, since the student's already involved in volunteering outside your classes, I think it would be harmful to criticize her activity. I don't see any harm in what she's doing, from what you described. However, since you're being paid, and a better dancer, your point would be to differentiate, subtly, on skill and "professionalism".
On top of that, see if you can work out something with her? I hesitate to give out detailed advice w/o knowing the details, but sometimes these situations can be win-win for both of you. There might be a space for cross-promotion, for example. Her going to all these places could mean more gigs for you (and other dancers), as well as more dancing for them. Especially in a world where there's few places for students to work with audiences, I think this is something you'll want to work with them on, and see if you raise all the boats. :)

I'd leave it as charity and consider it the perfect forum for extending opportunities to students.

Am I totally crazy to think that Old People's homes do NOT pay huge amounts? I gotta believe it's not that great an income. I mean seriously - things sound pretty bad in terms of income if you're having to quibble about retirement home performances...(but BD isn't my main business so it's easy for it to sound petty).

Er, by the way, it's worth considering that sounding like you're being snippy about charity performances may negate income in terms of bad PR.

when it's a home where very old or disabled people are placed for the duration of their lives i feel squeamish BUT my buddy agreed to have us dance at new place last year & it was a VERY swanky "sun city" type place. i woulda charged for that.

i think her issue was we were a mixed group of troupes & individuals & the money divided would have been small. if we had been ONE group the money could have gone to troupe "expenses" but we weren't.

personally i think free shows at homes are "ok" i object to free showcases at reastaurant. tina

As a social work student, I am amazed you found two adult day care centers that will pay you!! Very few elder care places have any sort of entertainment budget-although adult day care is different than long term care facilities. In the social work world adult day care is generally considered to be a "step above" the traditional nursing home. But often the entertainment budgets at daycare centers are not actually that large, particularly if the center is receiving government subsidies. And if they are volunteering at an actual "nursing home" then believe me, the residents are blessed to have them, and there probably is not any sort of entertainment budget in the facility.
There seems to be a myth floating around the bellydance world that volunteering at long term elderly facilities is bad, because it is giving potential customers something for free. In 95% of cases, that is completely false. Or the budget consists of about $200 a month for all 80 residents. No kidding. "Swanky sun city" is really rare-other wise we'd all be looking forward to the home, right =)

There might be some confusion around semantics - around here the day-care centers and nursing homes would likely have very small budgets, but some retirement communities could pay reasonably well.
Oops - once again, thinking same thoughts as Lauren.

Originally Posted by danidance

Am I totally crazy to think that Old People's homes do NOT pay huge amounts? I gotta believe it's not that great an income. I mean seriously - things sound pretty bad in terms of income if you're having to quibble about retirement home performances...(but BD isn't my main business so it's easy for it to sound petty)..

Swanky retirement communities in my area typically pay about 150% over restaurant shows. AND the shows are usually in the afternoons, sometimes even on weekdays, so it's easy to fit them in/around restaurants and private parties without turning down other income. And there are probably 20 retirement communities for every one ethnic restaurant in my area. (though they're not going to have you in on a weekly basis, of course. Actually, they all want you on Father's Day.)

But again, nursing homes are different matter altogether and I wouldn't take volunteers away from them.

re sun city. this was an up scale senior citizen planned community. they had their own condo but there was a huge & very fancy main hall. these were retired seniors who were capable of living on their own. this was NOT a home.

it was not what we usually did.

the other places we had done for years were managed care homes. tina

we (well, my student troupe) have done about 4 nursing home shows, they were all "charity", though they did offer to reimburse travel costs out of their tiny entertainment budget.... there are a few 'fancy' homes with larger budgets, but then, so far those havent been the ones that called.

the shows, all of those were not requests directly from the home itself, but through other organisations that work with the homes ( a charity organisation, a school for nurses, trainees from a school for social work stuff like that).

i've send my student troupe to these without me being present and found it an ideal gig for them to handle the whole thing themselves start to finnish, and get some experience in that as well; when i accompany them, or even dance myself, i'm doing all the practical stuff, like organise the music etc, talk to the organisers etc, i've used these as a test case towards troupe/aspiring pro dancer independent responsible behavior..., and so far this worked brilliantly.

Well, maybe it depends on the region. I have received other opportunities to dance at adult day care facilities because of this job, and none of them have flinched at my fee ($125, which was actually offered to me - I didn't even need to ask for it). I do a 40 minute show for that fee, which translates to more than a 50% discount off my regular rates.

The day care I dance at regularly has a LARGE entertainement budget - they are part of a larger, private health institute which has loads of money to toss around. They hire a different entertainer for every day of the week. So, yes, it is a steady job which pays relatively well.

I guess if I was only exposed to day care facilities which were tight on funds and not able to pay, I would feel differently about the fact that my students are volunteering everywhere. But I know that adult facilities can be a genuine source of income, in my area at least, which makes me worry that my students will start impeding on other dancers' territory by (perhaps unknowingly) contacting a venue which has had paid dancers up until that point.

Edited to add: I dance twice a month at my "regular" day care center - to me that is is good gig and source of income. So, I don't consider these purely "charity" performances.

My old dance school do perform at nursing homes and the teacher gets paid (not the students accompanying her though). Not much money, they she gets paid.

I want to second those who say that there are different kinds of facilities where elders or spend time:

* Senior centers. Often sponsored by cities, these facilities provide social and recreational opportunities for seniors. They may have pool tables, tables set up for card games, etc. Often, government-subsidized lunches are served. Most seniors who go to these are healthy enough to be up and about. Often, anybody age 50 or over is eligible to use them. In my experience, these usually do have a modest budget to hire entertainers.

* Adult day care. The seniors who go to these places tend to be less healthy/mobile than those who go to senior centers. They typically are not able to care for themselves on their own, so the adult day care facilities assist them with stuff like feeding themselves, going to the bathroom, etc. Some may be wheelchair-bound, others may have Alzheimers, etc. I think it would be unusual for these to have an entertainment budget.

* Retirement communities. These are usually apartments, and the people who live there are typically able to care for themselves. The folks who live here typically just want to get rid of the hassles of home ownership (home repair, lawn mowing, etc.) These places are typically upscale, and certainly have an entertainment budget.

* Assisted living. These people have some health issues that require them to have a bit more assistance in living their daily lives, but still are in their right minds and can be up and about. For example, they might need someone to help them get dressed in the morning, or help them go to the bathroom. But in between they can talk on the phone, watch television, play cards with others who live there, etc. From what I've seen, these folks often have entertainment budgets, but not always.

* Nursing homes. These are for people who need skilled care. Ie, nurses to help feed them, administer their medications, turn them in their beds so they don't get bed sores, etc. Some might not be conscious; others may be conscious but physically unable to care for themselves (for example, paralyzed). In my experience, these rarely have entertainment budgets.

* Hospices. Where people go to die. Not always separate from nursing homes, but sometimes are. Their residents are often not conscious because they are heavily drugged on painkillers. I've never spoken with one of these, but I wouldn't expect them to have entertainment budgets.


A lot of the confusion in discussing volunteering vs paid gigs at places where seniors gather comes from the fact that a lot of people don't understand the differences between the different places. I think volunteering is fine at hospices and nursing homes, but people should ask for pay at retirement communities and senior centers. Assisted living is kind of a gray area.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I want to second those who say that there are different kinds of facilities where elders or spend time:
* Adult day care. The seniors who go to these places tend to be less healthy/mobile than those who go to senior centers. They typically are not able to care for themselves on their own, so the adult day care facilities assist them with stuff like feeding themselves, going to the bathroom, etc. Some may be wheelchair-bound, others may have Alzheimers, etc. I think it would be unusual for these to have an entertainment budget.

Again, it depends on your area. Every adult day care center I have come in contact with has a large entertainment budget.

Oh, I can't believe I forgot to mention this! It was really useful advice for me, maybe it would help your students, too.

I complained to a friend (who is an experienced studio director) a while back about the number of requests I'm suddenly getting for free performances. I was feeling frustrated because my student group (which has a 'no-cut' policy) isn't a pro troupe but wants to perform. They don't mind dancing for free, but I can't afford to spend that kind of time handling all the details! How to find the right balance?

She said she usually tells the nursing home (or whoever) that her group requests an honorarium for the performance, just to help offset the cost of gas, costuming, music, etc. She said she tells them that they can pay whatever they can afford, or usually pay for such a performance, but her group's minimum is $50. She told me people often surprise her by paying much more!

Rather than split that tiny amount among the dancers -- and have them eventually arguing over $5!!! -- they put the money in a 'pot' and spend it on some matching props, or just a lunch together or something fun.

I thought it was a good way to cut down on the sheer number of requests (because eventually they WILL get tired of dancing every week or two!).

Of course, it could still be considered 'undercutting,' but I think of it this way. There are Brownies and senior tap groups who are volunteering to perform for free at nursing homes everywhere. Then there are the Elvis impersonators who, I think, still command big bucks at most senior centers. There's room for a whole range in between.

Maybe I misread the first post, but I think we've missed the point here.

The point is that the beginner level troupe was scheduling performances at the rate of about one per week, as well as that they were doing this all for free (and thereby, to a point, competing with the more professional level gig of their own instructor). Is that correct?

I certainly have done nursing home shows for free -- I've also been paid to do shows at upscale retirement homes. But I don't think the question is where to be paid and where to volunteer -- I think the question is should this group be performing so regularly at their current skill level. And yes, as I have so often found out, students don't always listen to their instructor when he/she says they are not ready for regularly scheduled performances . . . And I'm also not volunteering for the BD police squad ,r:;

However, right along with "are they ready to perform regularly" is the question of has this fervor for performing become a situation where they are not only competing with but perhaps undercutting another dancer. I think both of those fall in the question of ethics. Is it ethical for beginner level students to be presenting themselves as a "troupe" and offering shows (for free or otherwise) to the general public or do the students have an ethical obligation to develop reasonable skills before performing on a regular basis (and no, I don't mean they can never perform or that they need to be professional level to perform publicly, just that they need to understand there is a responsibility they bear to the dance form itself to present it at a reasonable skill level). Also, again an ethical question -- is it ethical for these students to enter the job market as free entertainment where they are (or should be) aware that other dancers are paid? Isn't that a form of undercutting?

Maybe the real solution is for all of us to be sure we include ethical discussions of these issues (and others) as a part of our dance programs, even at the beginner level.

Thank you Kat. That is exactly what my initial post was asking - is it ethical for these students to enter an arena as "volunteer" dancers, where other dancers (including their own instructor) get paid to do the same thing? Is it ethical for them to label their performances charity, and are they really charity if other dancers can and do get paid for the same thing?

That was my question. I wasn't asking about whether or not certain senior venues have budgets to pay dancers, because in this case, in my area, I know they do. My question was what do I do, if anything, about my students in this situation?

Good point, Kat, we did get sidetracked. That was kind of where I meant to head with my last post, actually. I think if they were my students, I might talk to them pretty much as you said -- discussing undercutting, and presenting a quality image of the dance to the world at large.

Truth is, people (including nursing home people, and staff) have a lot of tolerance for student-quality performances --from children. Tiny ballerinas in tutus bumping into each other is cute. But adults are held to a higher standard.

Adults who aren't ready to perform professionally should be performing primarily in recital events for friends & family (which includes a lot of haflas & showcases). Adults who ARE ready to be performing professionally should charge for their performances.

It's easy for students to get overly excited by the positive responses from their own friends and family -- but a quick way to give yourself a reality check is to see if you feel comfortable charging for your performances. If not, then maybe you're not ready to perform for the general public.

My own student group sits on the fence on this issue, as many do. It's not worth it in our area to invest in pro-level costuming, start cutting people who can't perform at a pro level, etc -- there just aren't many fully-paying gigs for it to be worthwhile. And yet, we're asked to dance at public venues, we enjoy it, and we feel we present ourselves well. In this situation, I feel like the 'honorarium' is a good middle-ground.

short answer -- volunteering more than a couple of times a year is too much.

hmmm, since I am a still a student, let me add a bit.

When there are only say 2 student hafla's to perform in each year (where local pro also perform), and they cost us all money to rent the space (let alone costumes and transportation and sometimes food). A few performances where we are invited to perform, and we only worry about costumes and transportation seem like a good idea for those of us trying to get practice with an audience.

Of course said a FEW. I think once a week is too much. Maybe, maybe once a month have some sort of performance.

Then again, I also feel the minor frustration of being a current student of dance, and having years of other amateur performance experience (musicals, dance recitals, school band/choir, solo flute, etc)

Kat, you beat me to it.

This thread brought to mind an editorial Bert Balladine wrote several years ago in one of the belly dance magazines, where he took issue with the "conventional wisdom" that nursing homes are an appropriate venue for newcomers to performing. He asked, "Why should nursing home residents be subjected to not-ready-for-prime-time dancing?" Many residents of nursing homes are educated and cultured, aficionados of professional ballet and other arts. Should we expect them to be joyful at the prospect of seeing beginner students "perform"?

As Kat rightfully pointed out, there's more to this issue than free vs pay. There's also the issue of how our dance is presented to the public. Do we want nursing home staff, residents, and families of residents to conclude from seeing such performances that belly dancers are a bunch of amateurish people who don't really know how to dance? Does that help us elevate the public opinion of our dance? Does it help us achieve the desire many of us have of being viewed as a "real", "legitimate" dance form?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Many residents of nursing homes are educated and cultured, aficionados of professional ballet and other arts. Should we expect them to be joyful at the prospect of seeing beginner students "perform"?

My mother, who's been an aficionado of ballet, modern dance, and ethnic art forms (including middle eastern dance) for some 60 years is my best & toughest critic, and a VERY outspoken & opinionated woman. She's seen almost every great performer of the second half of the 20th century - Nuryev, Martha Graham, Twyla Tharp, Bob Fosse's troupe. She's also been to workshop shows and seen Aunt Rocky, Nourhan Sharif and other great U.S. bellydance performers.

She's not in a nursing home yet, but God save any unprofessional dancer who tries to perform for her when that time comes!!! .w.:

*shudder*

Well, when I read the last few posts... all I keep thinking is... They get what they paid for, no? They didnt pay anything, they get unprofessional students. :) If they are not happy about that, then a thoughtful student could handout her teacher's business card.

well if you have the attitude that nursing homes are not the place for students then why is it "ok" to have them perform in restaurant "open" showcases for people who paid for dinner or at the Co. Fair where potentially they could dance in front of a few hundred people?? yes, i'm being fighty but students have to work bugs out somewhere. you know who told me to do nursing homes to work on my dancing issues?? jillina.

Originally Posted by tattood1

well if you have the attitude that nursing homes are not the place for students then why is it "ok" to have them perform in restaurant "open" showcases for people who paid for dinner or at the Co. Fair where potentially they could dance in front of a few hundred people?? yes, i'm being fighty but students have to work bugs out somewhere.

Habibi, I based my comments on Daniela's original statement that these students were "very beginner". If students are "very beginner", then the best performing environment for them is student recitals and haflas whose audiences are primarily their own families and friends.

I do think intermediates, who have had some time to build a bit of technique and repertoire along with a little experience at recitals with being in front of an audience, are probably okay for nursing homes, county fairs, etc. so long as the instructor gives some thought to how they are described/promoted and rehearses them enough to polish them up a bit. If they are listed in schedules or announced as "Students from Hildegard Hamhocker's School of Dance", that's more appropriate than "Perfumes of Uranus Dance Company".

I would suggest that there's also a big difference in skill level between a group of beginners whose instructor have rehearsed and polished them as opposed to a group of beginners who have just started performing on their own without such formal instructor input. Daniela seems to be implying that her "volunteers" are doing the latter.

When I think about the restaurant showcases we used to have in the Bay Area, they were typically held on nights (often Sunday) when the restaurant would have otherwise had only one or two tables all evening. 90% of the audience members were friends and family of the performers.

I typically tell my students that I have a higher standard for performances for the general public than I do for informal recitals. I tell them it's because their friends and family realize they're beginners and will support them no matter what, whereas they are serving as representatives of our dance form when they perform for the public.

Originally Posted by tattood1

well if you have the attitude that nursing homes are not the place for students then why is it "ok" to have them perform in restaurant "open" showcases for people who paid for dinner or at the Co. Fair where potentially they could dance in front of a few hundred people?? yes, i'm being fighty but students have to work bugs out somewhere. you know who told me to do nursing homes to work on my dancing issues?? jillina.

I don't think anyone is saying beginner/intermediate students should never perform at nursing homes or other public venues. I think it was the fact that this group was booking free weekly performances, some of them in venues where they were competing with dancers who might depend on the income from that venue as a part of their living. I'm not against beginner/intermediate dancers getting a chance to perform -- I am against them going overboard and doing more damage than good, not only to the image of belly dance in their area, but to their own reputations as performers.

Again, as with all ethical questions, there is some gray area here! I offer my students on the intermediate and advanced level (which might be only advanced beginner/intermediate level in another's program) 8-12 dance-for-the-public opportunities a year. In that way I can control what is presented to the public (er, somewhat at least!), be a mentor and cheerleader to the students and still provide a safe dance experience for those just cutting their performing teeth. Does that mean I never run into dancers either jumping the gun on performing-for-pay or getting the idea that they are more capable than they really are? Shoot no every year one or two branch out on their own before I think they're ready and there is little I can do to stop them. However, I do think it's my responsibility to do what I can to make students look at performing as a privilege to be earned rather than a right earned by paying class fees and buying a few costume pieces.

Hi daniela,

My question is - when is this too much?? They are regularly scheduling shows at different nursing homes for free (like, once a week).

To answer your original question. I believe you have let them to have fun and get some good expierence under their belts. I think you should address them as a CLASS and not individually (runs the risk of offending) and tell them politely that you are so thrilled they have taken the iniciative(sp?) to get practice but you FEEL that it has gotten out of control by performing once a week at several locations for FREE. Remind them that you will help them know when they will be ready for paid gigs. Remind them that there are dancers out there that make a living dancing at retirement homes. I believe that being polite and honest is the best way to handle the situation.

Good luck!!

Thanks for all the responses.

Just to clarify...the particular students in question are now billing themselves as a named troupe, not just my students. And while they are using my choreography (they do make programs and credit me, however...) I am not rehearsing these "shows" with them at all.