Thread: horrible undercutter in SF

I just got undercut by a dancer for a private party, who is charging $60 dollars an HOUR, with her partner in the Bay Area. (Apparently her rates range all the way up to 80/hr on the high end.)

This is after the people gave me a deposit on their credit card. They had called several people off the internet, and I am the only person who returned the call in a prompt fashion.

Now this chick gets around to calling back and offers to dance with her partner as long as they want for a buck a minute! And they actually expect that I shouldn't mind, and not only want to cancel with 2 days notice, they want the deposit refunded.

I am thoroughly disgusted with this situation. A dollar a minute. WTF?

by the way, this is not some clueless Martian. This is a dancer who has been on the scene perfroming in clubs since at least 4 years ago, and studies with a major name teacher, and pays for advertising on Google, Partypop, Gigmasters, etc.

In other words, someone who should know better. It's disgusting.

I would SO not give them back their deposit.

Wow. That is very unfortunate.
I've wondered if it is ever a good idea to email the said offender and let them know what they did? Or would that just cause more drama?

Jodette always undercuts me here in Sacramento ($20 for 2 dancers, 2 shows) so I feel your frustration.

I should amend my previous thing, and say that I am mistaken, and the undercutter is not now on Gigmasters, although I am pretty sure I have seen her/their ad on GM in the past.

Hey Zaheea, are you back in town now? I haven't seen you since the last show!

Originally Posted by zaheea

Wow. That is very unfortunate.
I've wondered if it is ever a good idea to email the said offender and let them know what they did? Or would that just cause more drama?

I'm sure she already knows that she is charging a buck-a-minute. So emailing is unlikely to help. it is not like operating in a vacuum...She is in the clubs, I have watched her perform with live bands, and she's got a teacher (at least at the time I saw her) who is well respected and a longtime major figure in the area ... that's what makes it so aggravating.

I mean, I got work for myself plus another person! It was a 2-dancer show. If this girl sucks so bad at negotiating a deent wage, it's a shame she can't at least make friends with those of us who can. I kick out gigs to other people all the time.

This could have been a win-win. Now it's just a crap-crap.

kick ass, spread the name, don't give them room to hide

That is so lame.

I hope it's not anybody I know.

Just curious about a couple of things. First of all is this is a case of you get what you pay for or are these people getting a good dancer at a really good deal? I would have to think it was the former or why else would this girl do this?

My second question has to do with rates. I used to perform in the SF area in the late 80's and early 90's. I was from Detroit and brought to over to work in SF for a new club. While there, I of course worked at other clubs. I was shocked to discover that in SF many dancers were willing to dance for free or practically free ($25-$30)because they depended on tips. Back then, I charged $75 for a 1/2 show! The owners were horrified at my price until I auditioned. And that's for a nightclub. Private parties are always double or triple! What's the average rate there now? Is her $1 an hour way off base?

As far as the deposit goes, I would not refund it. If they want it back let them go through the hoops and petition their credit card company. If you didn't have a contract I don't know if you would prevail. But, if this was a wedding, would they get their deposit back on the caterer, the florist, the baker at a last minute cancellation? In most cases, I think not.

I feel public outing is in order. And do NOT give the client their deposit back. You could have booked another show that night.

The suckiest part about this is how not surprised I am to read it.

Originally Posted by norma

I was shocked to discover that in SF many dancers were willing to dance for free or practically free ($25-$30)because they depended on tips. Back then, I charged $75 for a 1/2 show! The owners were horrified at my price until I auditioned. And that's for a nightclub. Private parties are always double or triple! What's the average rate there now? Is her $1 an hour way off base?

The lowest wage at a restaurant I know of is $0; the highest is $60. But some of my numbers are about two to three years old. Perhaps wages have gone up. When I first began working in restaurants in the early 1990s I received from $35 to $45 dollars, tips (not shared with a band when there was one), and dinner. Granted, tips could be big. But wages have certainly not gone up! I was 'phased out' of one place when I said I would dance for whatever table 2 brought in that night (and it was a small table!). Trust me it was more than fifty bucks, but the owners though I was being obnoxious and greedy.

Parties are higher, so if the scenario presented here is accurate then yes--$1 a minute is way off base. It is not difficult to make $200 for a party and $300 for a wedding performance. It may be slightly lower in the greater bay area (outside of SF). There are folks charging quite a bit less, but I promise it is possible to get this on a regular basis in SF, Marin, and on the upper Peninsula. Dancers I work with and talk to about these things are getting paid this wage, as am I (as opposed to just asking for it but never working!).

Sorry this happened to you, Zari.

Here you go Norma.

http://www.samirashuruk.com/standard...uidelines.html

unfortunately, as terrible as this is, it is quite common. this happened to me all the time when i was dancing in L.A.

one of the worst undercutters is now a very famous dancer we all know by name. she would even go so far as to contact my clients and tell them i was unavailable for their event. they would panic and hire her for less, without confirming i was not going to perform for them.

what i learned from this may help you:
for parties, weddings, other events - always have the client sign a contract. the contract should state their name, your name, the date/time of the venue, length of performance, your full fee, your deposit requirement and most importantly, that the deposit is non-refundable. They must sign this contract before you can schedule them in to your valuable time.
they must treat you with the same respect that they would the caterer, florist, or the band.

another part of the strategy is when you present them with the contract, do so wearing some type of business/office clothing [if possible]. i have found that this helps communicate that we are not just dancers, but business women and must be taken seriously when it comes to our wages.

they have already seen you 'the dancer' and chosen you. when people commit in writing and sign a contract, they are more likely to stand by their word. this helps them understand they have purchased time from your schedule for their event.

also, if you accept credit cards, the signed contract can help you fight charge backs from the clients.

this is not a cure, but i have found it helps. please do not take this event personally. it is, unfortunately, part of the nature of our industry. this type of behavior will always be there. the best we can do is protect ourselves with contracts and put the topic out in the community for discussion.

i applaud you for posting this issue. we all need to be aware of it and support each other. we should all work to increase the going rate in our areas, not undercut each other.

My condolences, Lotus. That really sucks! Not only to undercharge but to actually steal a gig away from another dancer is just disgusting!!

do NOT give them their money back. not enough notice. i ususally let people know that if they cancel less than a week in advance, they are not getting their deposit back. i may have not taken another gig or already spent time practicing or burning music. that's where their money went to.

Oh wow, that is so crummy.If you "out" her, make sure you have the facts and the truth about it, that way the truth cannot be slander and she cant cry foul.
Maria, when we moved to San Diego, we found the rate of pay very very low compared to the areas we moved from.
It was a surprise.
Monica, I was once replaced by a player piano! Yup. The owner bought this big grand piano with a pre-programed CD that played the keys.
Then, he started getting people asking about when he was bringing the dancer back so he asked me if I would return and dance to the piano as it played. Guess he wanted his money's worth from the thing.

Don't refund the deposit. Guilt them into thinking that had they not reserved you, you might've danced somewhere else or done something else that day.

what I learned from my experiences:
I keep my private gigs super quiet, and if I hire other dancers/musicians with me, they also have to keep the gig quiet, until it is over, even if there is a contract signed.
I learned the hard way!
I've had people bad mouth me to get gigs, people severely undercut me to get gigs, and all the general b.s. that comes with the territory.
It sucks, but that's the way it is in this business.
Oh, and NO WAY should you give the deposit back.

I have another hysterically funny (sad!) gig story to post later, I've gotta run now, but will try to get to it this week.

,m:: I would NOT return the deposit -- a deal is a deal. That's outrageous. I'm in SF, too, and though I hate gossip, naming names, all that stuff, I can't help but be more than little curious if I know this person. (I don't expect you to name her, tho. It would probably make it worse.) I had a situation where I booked a gig in San Rafael at a really nice restaurant that was just starting out (quite a while ago), they gave me a budget to hire a musician, and I was just so thrilled that I paid for advertising, posters, etc., to get the word out that they would be having entertainment. A dancer I knew came up to me and said, "Oh, hope you don't mind, I went to that restaurant you're going to be dancing at and gave them my card...." and who knows what rates she quoted. Never even so much as a "Good for you, I'll come and have dinner, watch your show, do you mind if I give them my card...." Was I right to be upset? I worked hard to get that gig!,m::

You mean there really *IS* a dancer who will dance at a party for less than $100? I thought that was a thing arabic people made up to scare me into dropping my rates!
:-D
Sorry that happened to you, Zari. I hope she gets food poisoning from the food she was surely offered in exchange for her dancing. Those people will get exactly what they pay for, I'm sure: an embarrassingly amateur show.

summer, you are awesome- for that statement alone.
LOL

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

,m:: I would NOT return the deposit -- a deal is a deal. That's outrageous. I'm in SF, too, and though I hate gossip, naming names, all that stuff, I can't help but be more than little curious if I know this person. (I don't expect you to name her, tho. It would probably make it worse.) I had a situation where I booked a gig in San Rafael at a really nice restaurant that was just starting out (quite a while ago), they gave me a budget to hire a musician, and I was just so thrilled that I paid for advertising, posters, etc., to get the word out that they would be having entertainment. A dancer I knew came up to me and said, "Oh, hope you don't mind, I went to that restaurant you're going to be dancing at and gave them my card...." and who knows what rates she quoted. Never even so much as a "Good for you, I'll come and have dinner, watch your show, do you mind if I give them my card...." Was I right to be upset? I worked hard to get that gig!,m::

Yes.

This situation is not gossip if what happened was true and bad for business.

We need to stop being such wusses about this and being "nice" girls. I don't have a problem saying that Jodette's business practices have ruined the dance scene in Sacramento. Why? Because if you are offered a dance gig in a restaurant, you get $40 if you are lucky. Why? Because she sends out cute-in-ugly-costume dancers for $20 to any gig in town she can.

I have lost my motivation to dance for pay because of this.

I agree with mish-mish, name the person, if it's true (and we all believe you, zari) that person may think twice about doing it in the future.

I agree with Kina and Mish-Mish...

I think you should name the person. If it was something that happened a long time ago, I would understand not putting the name out there. I don't think you should necessarily give out the name here on Bhuz, but you should certainly let other Sacramento dancers know so that they can watch out for her...

i agree with mish & kina. because we allow "sisterhood" to silence us alot of bad business practices exist. tina

I hate the faux sisterhood crap. If it was a "sisterhood," you wouldn't have undercutting or gig stealing or any of that stuff in the first place.

If someone is comfortable and confident about their business practices (slimy or no) - they won't care anyway. People can justify anything they want to when it's them.

Name names.

agreed. sisterhood seems to mean "cover up other's chet".

not pressuring zari this is her call i'm just venting. tina

Well, I think the sisterhood myth starts revealing itself for what it is when you tool around Tribe, Live Journal or other places where people can blog and let it all hang out. The posts and comments are fairly revealing if you bother reading through them.

Anyway - totally Zari's call and my call it for what it is statement is just to support her original post and how crappy that situation is.

Does this dancer have a website we could visit? Or perhaps you could post a partypop link to her?