Thread: The Funny Thing about Gigmasters....

...is that it basically outs the undercutters among us by posting actual bids from other dancers.

Recently, a dancer (who shall remain nameless) in my area (never heard of her) joined GM and started booking jobs like crazy. She quickly surpased several dancers who had been on GM for a year or two longer than her in number of bookings. Having lost another job to her recently (GM kindly informs you who gets a job when you don't....,m::) I took a look at her recent bids, and was shocked at what I found - here is her list of recent bids, the ones with the *'s are bids that ended in a booking.

4/4/2009 Birthday Party $200 1 hr 1 performer *
3/24/2009 Birthday Party $185 30 min 1 performer
3/19/2009 Birthday Party $190 1 hr 1 performer
3/17/2009 Wedding $400 30 min 2 performers *
3/11/2009 Birthday Party $175 30 min 1 performer
3/3/2009 Anniversary $325 1 hr 30 min 1 performer *
2/11/2009 Children's Birthday Party $440 1 hr 30 min 2 performers
1/23/2009 Birthday Party $190 4 hrs 1 performer
1/6/2009 Celebration $195 1 hr 30 min 1 performer
1/5/2009 Birthday Party $370 40 min 2 performers

To compare, here is my Hire page on my website, which lists my rates (which, I thought, were on the lower end of ok for my area): Daniela - Bellydancer, Performer and Instructor.

So, you can see that $195 for AN HOUR AND A HALF, or $370 FOR TWO DANCERS FOR 40 MINUTES, or $190 for ONE HOUR is ridiculous. Surprisingly, the rates for the jobs that she has actually booked are not so bad, but she has over 10 bookings in less than a year, so there are several other jobs she has booked that I don't know what she booked them for.

I guess, in addition to my pointless rant, my question is - do we have a responsibility, as dancers and collegues of known-undercutters - to say something to those dancers? I mean, I don't know this dancer from a hole in the wall, but I do know that she is actively taking gigs away from me and other dancers who are appropriately prices for our area with her undercutting ways. I know for a fact because gigmasters emails me and tells me so. Should I just let it go, or should I do something about it?

EDITED TO ADD: I correct my statement where I said that the rates she has booked at are not so bad. I just realized that her bid of $200 was for ONE HOUR. That is my price for 20 minutes. If a client sees that we both charge the same amount, and I "only" dance for 20 minutes, whereas she dances for an hour, who do you think the client is going to pick!?!? Aaarrgggh!!

wow, i have NEVER gotten anything from them!....we are not re signing either. i got on a thing and started asking clients, students etc how they found us.the answers saved us a bundel omitting online "yellow pages",
party poop etc, all of it just seems useless here, they just google, or pick up the printed yellow pages.
some see us on GM, but do not go through them !!!!they just read, compare, go to our site.
i am glad it works...somewhere.

I'm struggling with this, too, Daniela. I never signed up for Gigmasters because I knew it would just make me angry - that site facilitates undercutting in every conceivable way.

On the one hand, it's a free market economy. There are no laws that bind everyone to the same payscale and professional protocol. There are only loosey-goosey norms that aren't always communicated between dancers. And we can't take any punitive measures against undercutting, except for maybe ostracizing those who do, which is problematic in and of itself.

On the other hand, there are people who dance to support themselves. There are dancers like me who have lost their day jobs, are getting nowhere with their unemployment claims, and will need to dance to make ends meet until they get new jobs. There are also established pros who price themselves with confidence and prestige, whose rates reflect their expertise, their business savvy and the esteem with which they hold their own art form.

As far as solutions go, I'm also torn on addressing the issue with the undercutters. Should be interesting to hear what everyone else has to offer. Until then, I plan on hitting consumers over the head with a "high-end" message and positioning every one of my unique selling points to be seen. Show 'em what a REAL BDer looks like, instead of these 8-week wonders in their ratty self-made nippletassels.

Of course, I'm sure the cheapo's will plagiarize every other word of my copy, adapt a "luxury" position of their own, copy everything I'm doing, and offer to do it cheaper. I'm not losing hope in the intelligence of the consumer, though. At least not yet.

Really? That's interesting - I have found that lately ALL of my gigs have been coming from GM! I agree that Party Pop is a waste of money - I will be letting my membership expire this year. But GM seems to be working. And I'm fine with the healthy competition that is inherent in the site - as long as I am not getting the jobs because the client liks someone else better, and not because they are bidding half of what I bid!

**Edited to add that this was in response to zamora, not Satinworship

Originally Posted by zamora

wow, i have NEVER gotten anything from them!....we are not re signing either. i got on a thing and started asking clients, students etc how they found us.the answers saved us a bundel omitting online "yellow pages",
party poop etc, all of it just seems useless here, they just google, or pick up the printed yellow pages.
some see us on GM, but do not go through them !!!!they just read, compare, go to our site.
i am glad it works...somewhere.

I'm noticing the same thing, too. Though I've never been on Gigmasters, I've only gotten ONE gig from PartyPop. Everyone else on PP seems far more concerned with discount shopping - you can tell they've been calling straight down the list, looking for the best deal.

From a search standpoint, it's good to have your name on there. But I've been far more successful from social media, word of mouth and agencies.

Satin, I have felt the same way about GM and have thought of discontinuing my membership several times. I get so angry when I see dancers who use it as an alternative to having a professional website, and who post pictures in bras and hipscarves getting jobs - to me, a professional costume and website are the bare minimums you need to be a "pro" but GM gives these dancers and opportunity to bypass the standard routes to pro-dancer-hood and just jump in and start undercutting jobs.

But, since the economy tanked I have gotten relatively few gigs just through eamil, and most of them through GM so...I stay with it.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

.

I guess, in addition to my pointless rant, my question is - do we have a responsibility, as dancers and collegues of known-undercutters - to say something to those dancers? I mean, I don't know this dancer from a hole in the wall, but I do know that she is actively taking gigs away from me and other dancers who are appropriately prices for our area with her undercutting ways. I know for a fact because gigmasters emails me and tells me so. Should I just let it go, or should I do something about it?

I think it would be fine to email her and make her aware of the going rates in your area. Maybe even couch it as, "You could be making even more money" as opposed to "You're stealing our gigs!".

But that's only going to work if she's undercutting out of ignorance. If she's doing it intentionally to come in as the lowest bidder, it's not going to accomplish squat. At which point you have to more or less let it go, as you can't control other people, and trying to is an exercise in futility.

Weirdly, I have gotten enough gigs from PartyPop annually to more than pay for the annual fee, but I've been with Gigmasters over a month and have gotten nothing, not even a single inquiry. And I'm the only dancer in my entire state on GM.

I think locality much play a significant role in the GM/PP success rate.

in your area, do people under cut on purpose, or are some rates lower due to low to no overhead ?

Originally Posted by zamora

in your area, do people under cut on purpose, or are some rates lower due to low to no overhead ?

I mean, I would assume it would be on purpose, especially when - like on Gigmasters - other's rates are clearly posted so they can't claim ignorance. I can't imagine one having less overhead than I do - no studio rental, I have a "day job" to support me - and they charge much less than me.

Over the past 6-9 months I've been with GigMasters, I have gotten maybe two dozen gig notices. I have not been hired by any of them. Only once have I received notification that anyone was hired for a gig on which I placed a bid, and it didn't have any info other than the dancer's name (thank goodness it was someone I know is an excellent dancer).

Soooo, I assume that 1) nobody's actually hiring once they see rates, OR 2) dancers are going outside the system to actually book (which is unethical and goes against the "contract" the dancer has with GM).

Daniella, how does one go about finding this "follow-up" info?

Deborah

They just email it to you, Deborah. If you haven't gotten emails, it just means no one has booked a gig you bid on through GM.

As far as finding out what the bids were - if you click on the pay range for each dancer, it will pull up this list of their recent bids, with stars next to the bid if they were booked.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

They just email it to you, Deborah. If you haven't gotten emails, it just means no one has booked a gig you bid on through GM.

As far as finding out what the bids were - if you click on the pay range for each dancer, it will pull up this list of their recent bids, with stars next to the bid if they were booked.

Thanks for the info, Daniela!

Deborah

I actually have gotten a decent amount of work from Partypop, whereas I find that GM can be kind of a big waste of time. Since PP links to individual sites, people can shop around BEFORE calling, while those who contact me through Gigmasters have often just auto-added me to their search for a low-cost Polynesian Fire-Eating Troupe.
I do find that even when I get lazy and don't respond quickly to these potential clients, they still don't book anyone else. The ones I really move on are those in my immediate, travel fee-free radius, and especially when they are specifically looking for, say, 20-30 minutes, instead of 4 hours.

Daniela, some of those prices do seem ridiculously low. I agree that presenting it as "look how much more you could be making" is probably your best bet... Funny, though, when I looked at GM for wedding bands, the range was HUGE (like anywhere from $300 to $700 per musician). As a client, I always figure I'll go with the style I really want, or the option that seems like the best value for my money. This may not help for people who value quantity over quality, but I've certainly been chosen over undercutters in the past. It is what it is...

Funny that I am complaining about GM and undercutters today - I *just* booked a gig through there at my regular rate ($230 for 30 minutes + $10 travel!) without a question about it!

Just some extra info ...

The "recent bids" feature on GM may be misleading. When potential clients fill out the form describing their event, the shortest time they can choose is 1 hour; it goes in half-hour increments up from there. Also, clients may be thinking of how long their event will probably last in total, not how long they actually want entertainment for. When I fill out the gig response form, I always change the duration to "per show," and then when I speak with a potential client by phone, go into how long my show is and why, etc. etc. Some performers don't change the duration on their response, and this misleads the GP into thinking you'll dance for an hour; they may clear this up during the negotiating for the gig by e-mail or phone, or they may not. The duration stated for this dancer's bidding might be automatically taken from the clients' form, not what her response is, or how long she actually arranged with the client to perform.

I'm not saying she is (or isn't) undercutting. I'm just saying that we may be getting misleading information.

One time I went through the "find a performer" process just to see what clients go through for research purposes. I went as far as I could go without actually contacting anyone (I didn't want to waste anyone's time), and it was very informative.

Originally Posted by Nabila-Nazem

Just some extra info ...

The "recent bids" feature on GM may be misleading. When potential clients fill out the form describing their event, the shortest time they can choose is 1 hour; it goes in half-hour increments up from there. Also, clients may be thinking of how long their event will probably last in total, not how long they actually want entertainment for. When I fill out the gig response form, I always change the duration to "per show," and then when I speak with a potential client by phone, go into how long my show is and why, etc. etc. Some performers don't change the duration on their response, and this misleads the GP into thinking you'll dance for an hour; they may clear this up during the negotiating for the gig by e-mail or phone, or they may not. The duration stated for this dancer's bidding might be automatically taken from the clients' form, not what her response is, or how long she actually arranged with the client to perform.

I do the same thing and give some detail of what I recommend for the show and the price for that. Still haven't booked anything through GM, although I got two gig alerts last week . . .

Deborah

It just struck me that hiring the cheapie dancers vs the "luxury" dancers is alot like buying art. Yes, you can go to Mexico and buy a paper mache ET or Elvis-on-Velvet, or you can buy a real Zapotec rug, or a serape, or beautiful jewelry from an artist for your souvenir.

I personally wouldn't pay for someone to dance for me who made me think "gee, I could do that" - and have it be true, any more than I'd buy a piece of art that I could do better.

Originally Posted by BELLA_BELLA

Yes, you can go to Mexico and buy a paper mache ET

I dunno, a paiper mache E.T. actually sounds kind of intriguing to me...

Originally Posted by Nabila-Nazem

Just some extra info ...

The "recent bids" feature on GM may be misleading. When potential clients fill out the form describing their event, the shortest time they can choose is 1 hour; it goes in half-hour increments up from there. Also, clients may be thinking of how long their event will probably last in total, not how long they actually want entertainment for. When I fill out the gig response form, I always change the duration to "per show," and then when I speak with a potential client by phone, go into how long my show is and why, etc. etc. Some performers don't change the duration on their response, and this misleads the GP into thinking you'll dance for an hour; they may clear this up during the negotiating for the gig by e-mail or phone, or they may not. The duration stated for this dancer's bidding might be automatically taken from the clients' form, not what her response is, or how long she actually arranged with the client to perform.

I'm not saying she is (or isn't) undercutting. I'm just saying that we may be getting misleading information.

One time I went through the "find a performer" process just to see what clients go through for research purposes. I went as far as I could go without actually contacting anyone (I didn't want to waste anyone's time), and it was very informative.

I thought about this too, Nabila, after I accidentally forgot to change the show length on a recent bid and now it looks like I bid $230 for an hour....

But that was just one time - from the rest of my bids you can clearly see that I don't normally bid that low. I don't know, if it were one or two times, I could see it as a mistake. But to never change the time on your bid seems kind of silly.

I also went through the client process once myself, to see what it was like! I actually submitted a request to myself and bid on myself so I could see what the clients see! ..l;, It was interesting.

On another note, I was thinking of contacting GM about the time options - they really do need to give an option of less than an hour for the requested time. A lot of clients seem confused that they can ask for a shorter show, I wonder how many never even bid because they don't want a bellydancer for an hour and think that that is the only option? Does anyone know how to contact the people in charge over there?