Thread: WWBD: Client becoming increasingly demanding

Ok, I'm writing because, well, I basically know what I have to do I think, but I'm feeling really annoyed and could use a reality and language check.

A woman has booked me for a bridal shower this coming weekend (on about a week's notice, so she hasn't paid a contract yet). She *really* pressed me hard on price and everything else. I stuck to my guns, but quoted her the bottom of my price range. On the phone I thought I was quite clear about what that would entail. We agreed she would send me location information, etc., and I would send her a confirmation.

Since that initial conversation, she has called or emailed me daily with little tweaks and additional demands. First, she wants me to wear a red costume but cover my stomach (I don't have a red dress, so I'm getting ahold of a tummy cover). Then, because they are Indian, she would like one of the songs I use to be Indian--the rest can be Arabic. Ok, I have some bollywood songs...I can put one on the CD. Then she'd like to know which song (and approve it I guess.) Ok...so I was going to send her a song b/c, well, she'll know better than me if it's appropriate.

Then she asked me to do a shamadan. I'm starting to get annoyed because normally I would charge more for this but...I end up agreeing to do it, deciding that is the last concession I make.

Now she's demanding I also do a cane dance...and finger cymbals...and bring my own boombox. Oh, and by the way, this was initially booked as a 30 minute gig with a short performance (a song) followed by a mini-lesson.

Ok, now I was fine with showing up with my candelabra (it's really not that hard to do, I guess) and using a tummy cover because, well, that seems like something I should probably have in the arsenal for certain types of gigs anyway...and I was going to bring hip scarves for the mini-lesson as I normally do...but now she's demanding three performance songs (plus the indian song for the "lesson"), three different props, and there's no sound system available at the place she's doing this so I need to bring a boombox. And then there's the music approval thing.

Suddenly, if I were to accommodate all this, this simple little 30-minute gig has become a massive time-sink this week AND turned into an excursion for which I would need a sherpa to haul all my gear!!!

So...how would you go about telling a client like this (very politely but firmly) what it is (and what it ain't!) gonna be? ..c::

TIA for your thoughts and for allowing me to vent whilst I mellow out....

...

Whoo, this is a tough one. I had a wedding gig that was a little like this. The grooms family because very demanding as the date got closer, first they wanted to choose from several songs I was considering, then they wanted me to dance to a song I'd never heard before and were unable to send me so that I could hear it in advance, then they wanted me to do 2 drum solos in a 3 song set! It was different thought because the bride was the one who hired and was communicating with me, and I could tell she was just as sick of the family's demands as I was. I was dreading the actual event but it actually turned out to be fabulous.

In your shoes, I think I would be tempted to put an email together saying something like:

I've put together a loose outline of everything that has been requested since the initial booking. Now that I look at it all together, I realize that we have gone quite far outside of our original agreement. The price I quoted you on [mm/dd] did not include recent additions such as cane, finger cymbals, custom song requests and providing my own sound system.

I would be more than happy to provide all of the elements that you have requested for a total fee of [$x.xx], or I can provide [description of what you're willing to do] for the rate previously agreed upon. Please let me know which you would prefer to go forward with.

Since you don't have a contract yet, you do have the option of pulling out of the gig if she continues to be a PITA. But I wouldn't threaten her with that unless you decide at some point you'd be better off without the gig.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Whoo, this is a tough one. I had a wedding gig that was a little like this. The grooms family because very demanding as the date got closer, first they wanted to choose from several songs I was considering, then they wanted me to dance to a song I'd never heard before and were unable to send me so that I could hear it in advance, then they wanted me to do 2 drum solos in a 3 song set! It was different thought because the bride was the one who hired and was communicating with me, and I could tell she was just as sick of the family's demands as I was. I was dreading the actual event but it actually turned out to be fabulous.

In your shoes, I think I would be tempted to put an email together saying something like:

I've put together a loose outline of everything that has been requested since the initial booking. Now that I look at it all together, I realize that we have gone quite far outside of our original agreement. The price I quoted you on [mm/dd] did not include recent additions such as cane, finger cymbals, custom song requests and providing my own sound system.

I would be more than happy to provide all of the elements that you have requested for a total fee of [.xx], or I can provide [description of what you're willing to do] for the rate previously agreed upon. Please let me know which you would prefer to go forward with.

Since you don't have a contract yet, you do have the option of pulling out of the gig if she continues to be a PITA. But I wouldn't threaten her with that unless you decide at some point you'd be better off without the gig.

I would do this and include the timings in the two quotes. (i.e. how long you will be dancing or performing for) - since originally you were going to do one quick dance, and now it seems you are going to do three.

wow, sounds like this lady is really acting up. Give her a timeout in the corner!! lol.

frankly, i'd have said NO at the shamadan, i mean at anything that you would usuallycharge extra for (like two sets, costume changes etc)....

i try to accomodate anything that i dont cahrge extra for really (such as other specific song choices, cane, whatever)...

i sometimes also become hard to reach... and dont pick up the phone everytime a client calls. i also tell them "please put all of that in an email and i'll see what i can do"... and than wait a few days before you answer, and again dont pick up the phone...

people are a lot less easy to say NO to over email than on the phone ;-)

As a fellow musician told me once...keep adding zeroes till you feel better about it.

In the morning light...
I'm thinking I might take an approach along these lines:

* Start by calling/talking to the manager at the restaurant where they've booked the private room for the party. I may well be able to rule out certain elements (say, like having enough room for a swinging cane...) by doing that. Besides, chances are, if Overexuberant Client is making me a little nutty, she's been doing the same to the venue, so I may be able to get the manager to back me up.

* When I respond via email (no phone calls today) to Overexuberant Client, tell her something along the lines of: "I understand you want to ensure everything is perfect for your niece's bridal shower. I do as well. After however-many years of doing events like this (including dancing for other Indian families), I have developed a pretty good sense of what works in situations and spaces like these. I believe the fllow of the show may be better without adding another prop, but also, I am concerned that adding a swinging cane in relatively close quarters like these may be a little dangerous (aside: ok, I know how to control my cane in very close quarters, but they don't usually know that...) This is something that's usually better performed in a setting with a stage. Also...as I'm looking over the list of requests now, I am noticing that we've moved away from what my understanding was in our initial conversation when I made the price quote. At that time, I gave the lowest possible price quote because you was concerned about price, but that was based on a standard party package. I'm happy to accommodate the costuming request and the special music request. I am also happy to change the balance of the amount of time performing vs. the lesson. Fianlly, I've also thrown in the shamadan--something that is a special skill many dancers do not have and for which I usually charge extra. Beyond that, though, any further props or special requests will are subject to additional charges."

Then I'd itemize a bulleted list of EXACTLY--in even more detail than normal--what I will do for the price initially quoted, including those "extra requests" under a heading "special requests" and a line about additional charges for additional props or other requests after that point.

...Of course I still need to finesse wording.

As Galatea said, sometimes the client events that are a big PIA upfront turn out just fine, fun even. It is often simply the case that an overly nervous person who has never booked entertainment before is trying to ensure everything goes well. So...I'll start with the assumption that she has no idea of the extra strain she's putting on me and that maybe she actually thinks I need/expect her to guide me this much. And if that's the case, maybe by reasserting that I actually do have a lot of experience and expertise in this area I can put her more at ease and get her to back off.

I like your plan.

I had a bride recently that sent me a cd with all NEW songs that she decided I was going to dance to a WEEK before her wedding - mind you this was a three-dancer gig, and my girls and I had choreographed dances to the songs we were planning on using. AND, I had sent her a cd with those songs (at her request) FIVE MONTHS prior to the wedding!! And one week before she decides she doesn't like them and sends us a new cd with songs she picked out!

My dancers and I had to scramble rehearsing that week to come up with a show that wouldn't look like we had no idea what we were doing....and you know what? The bride ended up being the sweetest thing, she apologized for throwing us that curveball, and absolutely raved about our performance and our professionalism on all the local wedding planning boards.

So, stick to your guns, charge extra for anything additional, and be professional the whole time. The client will likely appreciate it all after it's over!

ha ha ha ...east indian.yep, very demanding.what i dont gert, is....they hire you, then try to change what you do, what you wear etc
i have a very long list i read and ask them now.but one of my dancers STILL got stuck in front of a bounce house while the women fumed in a corner.
why dont they just hire indianm dancers and be done with it!

Zamora, I want to be absolutely clear that I am *NOT* in any way implying or assuming that the client's overexuberance has ANYTHING to do with her ethnicity! I find your broad assertion silly. I'm happy to dance for and work with east Indian audiences, and have had many good experiences with Indian clients. I only mentioned her ethnicity by way of explaining a particular (and fairly reasonable) musical request.

I have experienced Euro-American, Arabic, Greek, etc. clients who exhibit similar behavior to this client. As I said in my last post, I think *much* of the time, this kind of behavior comes from an individual who has good intention but simply doesn't understand the actual effects of what he/she is saying/requesting. Yes, I'm sure there are people who are pushy and want something for nothing, but I don't think that's the majority of cases, and furthermore, such people are present in all cultures/backgrounds. As a professional, I believe it's a good idea to be clear and firm about what we will and won't do, but also to generally give clients the benefit of the doubt with respect to their character and intentions.

aamel, i would never assume i knew how things were in another part of this country of ours.certainly not call anyone "silly" over something i know nothing about....IN FRESNO, it is difficult working with this faction of the community.THATS ALL, here it is hard.
even when the young ones hire, the family either shoots it down, or tries to make it conform with older ways.one young couple got so frustrated with their family, they just canceled the whole party.
i would never call anyone a name, especially here.

...further, i was hired by an east indian doctor, someone i know.
i was hired for another doctors birthday.when i got there started to dance, the guest of honor and several children picked up my veil, and tried to put it back on me!
the doctor who hired me was shocked !
so, it does run the gamit, but HERE, IN FRESNO CA.
this type of action is by the highest percent done by east indian's.i have found a dance studio to refer them to now, that teaches east indian dance.
sorry i did not pick my words better, but no mater how irritated i get on bhuz sometimes, i have and would never call anyone a name.
have a nice day.

Zamora, I didn't call you any names and I didn't call YOU silly, I called the broad assertion that "this is the way these people are" silly. I'm not making any assumptions about you personally, and I'm not interested in getting in an online flame exchange.

At any time anyone can search and find these posts...including potential clients, and so I wanted to be sure *your* statements didn't get at all attribtued to me/that no one thought *I* was making any statement about my client based on her ethnicity.

ok, i see.things get lost in print on line.
i think it might be valuable to know the regions we are all working in so we can learn what differs from place to place.
did she ok a body stocking ? that doesnt fly here , they want it covered, covered.
what i do not get, is if they contact, ANYONE contacts us, through our web sites, they have seen pictures.
i also find that they seem to feel free to change it up, after the deposit is paid.
i do not have these issues with the islamic clients.

ah, what is a "flame exchange"?
ah, never mind, this all ended up peaceful.it just sounds like the gay guys in ballet class long ago!
peace out !

Originally Posted by zamora

ah, what is a "flame exchange"?
...it just sounds like the gay guys in ballet class long ago!

..l;, Well that sounds like a potentially interesting story in and of itself....

Just because you'll probably see this term on forums from time to time--

A flame exchange (or flame war, or other similar term) in the context of online discussion refers to a serious of posts in which people get personal and nasty with each other and get well away from the original topic. Sometimes it's done deliberately to upset people and get a reaction (people who try to start flame wars are called "trolls"), but a lot of times it just starts with a simple misunderstanding or miscommunication that escalates as people get angry or upset with what what they think others are saying, start taking it personally, start getting personal or deliberately insulting with one another, etc. It's the risky side of online communication: people have a certain amount of anonymity and at the same time, can't see facial expression/body language/tone and/or might simply misread another post. It can start very accidentally, but it just results in everyone feeling bad. So...for example, when someone says she's not interested in getting into a flame exchange/flame war, that may mean the exchange is starting to *feel* personal, but that isn't her intent and she wants to avoid having the conversation head down that "flame war" path. :-)

There most certainly are demanding clients in every culture. I find the cultures that have a deeper tradition of hard bargaining more often have individuals who to "continue to bargain" in a demanding way after the deal has been set. Some seem to feel a drive to continue to get a "better deal".
That being said, the responses in writing are great ideas. Lay it all out clearly.
When I book something I tell them it's not in my calendar until we have at least exchanged an email so we both are on the same page. Usually I write the first email, outlining the details of the gig, time, length of show, style, cost etc. I ask them to reply in confirmation and include venue address, contact person, number etc. Then we can base a contract on that. BUT- this way it's all very clear and in writing from the get-go. The ones who like to "continue to bargain" by adding on things- can then always be re-directed back to the very first email and offered the extra things at extra cost.

At this point, you're probably screening your calls, lol!

I do think that if you agreed to add in x,y,z without asking for more money at the time you'll need to suck it up and fulfill those particular obligations. no backsies or asking for extra money after the fact, if you already gave your word these would be included.

Isn't it funny though that in a service based industry, people don't seem to get that a HAPPY dancer tends to deliver more fun to their event than a disgruntled one. I'm always surprised that the people who are most anxious to squeeze every last drop don't realize that. Of course we all have a baseline of professional competence, but ya know what I mean? Being nice to the dancer actually is to the client's benefit.

PS -- sorry, I know "suck it up" sounds rude, I just can't think of another phrase at the moment.

how do they find all these information and ask you to add to your routine...that is what I am wondering. I think most spend so much time just to shop around and talking to other dancers and come up with ideas for the same price you can do, because other dancer says well I will do it for you for $200 and I can perform with veil, shamadan, finger cymbals...blah blah blah...
but the client wants you because you seem like a nice girl and good dancer...hahaha

Originally Posted by turkishdancer

how do they find all these information and ask you to add to your routine...that is what I am wondering. I think most spend so much time just to shop around and talking to other dancers and come up with ideas for the same price you can do, because other dancer says well I will do it for you for $200 and I can perform with veil, shamadan, finger cymbals...blah blah blah...
but the client wants you because you seem like a nice girl and good dancer...hahaha

I don't think that's what's going on here. She got the ideas about shamadan from watching my videos on YouTube, and I think that's where she got the cane idea too. She got the zills idea because she saw me at a restaurant playing the zills and she liked them.

Lotus--I agree. I'm not planning to try to charge more for anything we'd already discussed and that I'd agreed to do, I'm just trying to clarify with her and address requests beyond those.

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

I don't think that's what's going on here. She got the ideas about shamadan from watching my videos on YouTube, and I think that's where she got the cane idea too. She got the zills idea because she saw me at a restaurant playing the zills and she liked them.

Oh, I had a client like this once! After she hired me to do a simple BellyGram (2 songs, 10 minutes, NO props), she went on a YouTube spree and suddenly wanted everything under the sun. She kept changing her mind about what costume she wanted me to wear every day. She even went from my videos to other dancers completely unrelated to me, and started suggesting things I didn't even do, like isis wings and candle tray.

She was actually a very sweet lady, just really excited because she had no idea prior to hiring me for her brother's birthday party how many things Belly Dancers do/wear. She was just enchanted with all the options. She came to see me at a workshop show the week before, and when I got to the party, she paraphrased the show introduction in an announcement to the guests before I went on. I'll never forget it - "I hired a Belly Dancer for you all tonight, and she performs...Rock Sharkly" ..l;,

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

Lotus--I agree. I'm not planning to try to charge more for anything we'd already discussed and that I'd agreed to do, I'm just trying to clarify with her and address requests beyond those.

Oh! well if that's your only issue, then from now on whenever she calls just shout into the phone "I can't hear you, I've got a banana in my ear!". Do this repeatedly until she gets confused and goes away. Or, if you don't want to do the gig at all, be sure to casually mention toward the end of your next call that you're going into the hospital to have labor induced tomorrow. Reassure her that the doctors say you will totally have your figure back in time for the gig, and ask where shall you store your baby during performance?

Aamel, I dont know how much in need you are to take this gig...

BUT, behavior like that is exactly why I ask a million questions before I agree to work with an Indian client no matter how fluent they are in English or how impressive their degree and title sounds (because they WILL most commonly volunteer that information).

It is reflective of social intelligence and mindset on the client's part and I really avoid working with Indians with "rural mentality and mindset"...nicely put. Why? Because they think that a couple of 100 dollars lets them basically OWN you until you have completed your engagement - therefore they can change the critereas, amount of work and specifications at their leisure.

Artists available for hire are considered to be selling their art and artistic integrity to the specifications of the client. Artists are considered servants by people with that kind of mentality - and people like that treat their servants badly to show who's the "boss". Now, people have evolved past that - but some part of this mentality tags along with MANY, unfortunately.

I have spent hours and hours with people of various types of education and background explaining that they are only hiring a service, not me as a person or my art or my integrity. Finally, I just call it quits and as soon as I pick up on this kind of mindset in the client (Hello, my name is [insert university degree] [insert name] [insert current mode of employment and title]).

At the worst, when I'm in a bratty mood I will pose a rather extensive amount of questions and requirements before the client even has the time to start being low class about the whole ordeal and negotiate. I have, like you, an allowance on my fees on how far down I will go. But, with clients like that - I start WAY higher to negotiate my way down to my normal fee. Why? It's my compensation for the agony of having to deal with them. And I am being very frank here.

There are so many Indians that have evolved past all of this, but the ones that are stuck in this mindset ruin the reputation and integrity of all that us others have built.
------
On the other hand...I would never hire anyone I didnt trust to be capable enough to know how to handle the event I was hiring them for. Thus, I would not need to have a myriad of questions and requirements and specifications. Just a mere presentation would do (Party, mixed crowd, kids to elderly) and the artist would know how to handle it and reply with (ah, so I will ensure it is a family friendly and appropriately dressed presentation).

One of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to dancers available for booking is that some seem to open options for costume color, type of music, type of cut on costume, type of make up, type of props.... I've even heard dancers ASK the client about these things... and my opinion is again, I wont hire you for my Indian function if you have to ask.

......the moral is - dont even leave a loophole for the client to take control over the service you offer or your performance.

Now there is a difference between covering skin and going layer on layer on layer to be "conservative". I think the latter would be required for a muslim function depending on what country the client and their guests are from. Sikhs are going to react weird anyway - they do that to ANY artists - even chefs! Hindus wont book you if they are too conservative.

Someone should start a website with country/culture/religion wise requirements huh? lol

Until then, who is responsible for teaching us? our teachers, instructors and mentors....through classes, private lessons, conversations, articles, general advice AND most of all - through taking their students with them to their own gigs as assistants or fellow dancers or background dancers, I dont care in what capacity really, so students can see their role models in action, how the client is handled, how payment is handled, how networking is done, how promotion is done, how the audience is handled, etc.

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

In the morning light...
I'm thinking I might take an approach along these lines:

* Start by calling/talking to the manager at the restaurant

* I believe the fllow of the show may be better without adding another prop, but also, I am concerned that adding a swinging cane in relatively close quarters like these may be a little dangerous

I would avoid going into all this detail. It just gives more areas for discussion/debate and calling the restaurant manager is just more work for you.

I would stick to the facts, and remain honest and straightforward about your reasons - I usually charge ... for ..., I have noticed we have strayed quite far from our original agreement of A and we are now talking about A, X, Y and Z, I am willing to go as far as A and X which would normally cost an extra ... but if you would like Y and Z, I it will cost an additional .... Please let me know what you want to do and I'll send an amended contract to you.

I would rather not take a gig then be kicking myself all the way there and back for agreeing to do it. So you have to be prepared at some point to walk away.

Perhaps it's time to add something in our contracts under the heading "Additional Requests Requires Additional $$$!"

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

Perhaps it's time to add something in our contracts under the heading "Additional Requests Requires Additional $$$!"

A contract is just a confirmation of already agreed upon parameters, terms and clauses of an agreement....it's difficult to agree upon anything when the client keeps changing their mind every second, much less get a contract signed....

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I would avoid going into all this detail. It just gives more areas for discussion/debate and calling the restaurant manager is just more work for you.

I would rather not take a gig then be kicking myself all the way there and back for agreeing to do it. So you have to be prepared at some point to walk away.

Calling the manager is for my *own* comfort. Basically, I want to be sure that a.) she's aware they're bringing in a dancer (so I don't have one of those situations where you show up and they have a problem with what you plan to do..esp. given that there's a shamadan involved), and b.) because I'd like to have some sense of the size of the room/where it is in the restaurant for the sake of making things run smoothly once I get there. That's all.

And yes, of course, there's always a walk-away point! *grin*

Originally Posted by david

A contract is just a confirmation of already agreed upon parameters, terms and clauses of an agreement....it's difficult to agree upon anything when the client keeps changing their mind every second, much less get a contract signed....

You said it brother! :-)

Honestly...heh heh, look, it's not like I'm a total rube when it comes to this type of situation. ..g.: I have some pretty good processes myself and they normally work. I think more than anything I just needed to vent last night because it's getting frustrating. She didn't send up some of these red flags in the initial conversation--she had asked about using an Indian song and she asked me to wear red (causing me to confirm that she wanted full coverage and that the stocking would be acceptable as my red costumes are all two piece) but both of those requests seemed within bounds. I guess maybe part of what had me feeling so frustrated was simply that despite my screening she *didn't* trip some of my red flag alerts initially. ..c::

Though I would probably put it differently, I see the gist of David's point about there being different mentalities within Indian culture. The Indian gigs I generally do are fine. Still, I also know from experience and from interactions with Indian friends that Indian culture is FAR from one monolithic group--region, religion, class, language and ethnic differences are huge, and Indians from different groups don't necessarily see themselves as having much of anything in common with those from other groups. Though the people I work with are typically respectful, I've seen how some people/groups have very different attitudes about dancers/musicians/artists.

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

[snip]

Though I would probably put it differently, .....

[snip]

LOL, we Indians are usually NOT as politically correct and sensitive as you are with that wording... :)

...with a billion Indians, we end up being a bit more effective and direct in our communcation lol :) Gets me in trouble from time to time, believe me.