Thread: Heated Rates Discussion on Yahoo Groups/WWBD?

We, (our yahoo group members for colorado and denver/boulder bellydance)
are in the midst of a heated discussion on rates right now because:

there are (is) a dancer dancing around at gigs for FREE for FUN!
and other severe undercutting going on.

Someone just posted that they think it's a free market, and people should charge what they want.

It's just so frustrating ~

arghhhh.

How can we educate without sounding snarky/bit&&y/catty that that is doing us as a whole, as bellydancers, a dis-service.

HELP bhuzzers!

Jewl, maybe you can chime in here!

These unfortunate souls might not understand the concept of helping other people, but they will understand helping themselves.

I would focus on getting justly compensated for time and money put into the dance. These dancers are the ones losing.

These people who are dancing for "free" and "fun" I'm curious to know if they are professionals with professional costuming to pay for? Do they go out and perform in broomstick skirts and hip scarfs? If so, it should be brought to their attention that is one of the reasons why dancers need to be paid. The more professional looking they are, the better chances they have of holding a long time gig until some one comes along to dance for free. Nicely ask them to look at if from a professionals point of view.

Ask them this: Do you dance for free (or less then the industry standard) because you personally believe that you don't deserve / are worthy of being paid for your work?

You may not get a response for a while, but it's one of those questions which will get under their skin. . .

{{{HUGS}}}

it's getting ugly over on yahoo!
The person who posted the free market comment, i responded, "Are you kidding" and then I got scolded by someone else by my remark. I thought she was.
*sigh*
anyway.....
The dancers who don't care that their are dancers charging $20 bucks for shows: well, nothing is going to change their mind.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

These people who are dancing for "free" and "fun" I'm curious to know if they are professionals with professional costuming to pay for? Do they go out and perform in broomstick skirts and hip scarfs? If so, it should be brought to their attention that is one of the reasons why dancers need to be paid. The more professional looking they are, the better chances they have of holding a long time gig until some one comes along to dance for free. Nicely ask them to look at if from a professionals point of view.

turkish specials, and they have well known teachers in town too.

I agree with Michelle75 and posted as such on the Colorado Belly Dance group. IMHO, most dancers who undercut are not doing so maliciously. They may be new to the scene, inexperienced in the matters of bellydance finance or just dancing for a little extra cash. They probably don't realize that what they are doing has an overall effect on the professional dancers in the area.

Please post again to the group and give reasons/examples of why/how undercutting hurts the community. It may be quite an eye-opener for many of the group members.

Thanks. :)

Quality costuming and training cost money: Lots of money. If they want to donate their time, that becomes a whole different issue but the numbers in regards to costuming and training speak for themselves and make the issue of charging for your performances one of necessity. Unless of course, you're stinkin' rich and don't need the money... but in that case, I'd hope that some respect for other dancers in the area would come into play.

Of course, there are exceptions and we're all entitled to donate performances from time to time, but I think those exceptions really need to be very limited and chosen carefully.

how fabulous that these dancers are so wealthy that they do not need to be paid for their work like the rest of us! [yes that was sarcasm ]

perhaps you could suggest to them that even though they are independently wealthy and do not feel the need to charge for their services, they should charge the "going rate" in your area to maintain propriety and business standards for all dancers in the area. then they should donate their earnings to the local womens' shelter.

if they don't need the money, there are plenty of struggling women who could use the help.

have you seen their shows? do they warrant payment ? ;)

it is one thing to do a special free performance for a charity event such as a fund raiser for children's hospitals. in that case, our time and show is the donation to the charity.

however, in my opinion, it is totally unacceptable to dance for free on a regular basis because it undermines the fee structure of the whole industry. we have worked so hard to earn respect in our field. it is sad when a few individuals drag us backward, whether they mean to or not.

I think it helps to remind then that, while for them dancing is fun, it is someone else's livelihood. These are people who are trying to make a career out of doing something they love, and trying to elevate an art form in the eyes of the public.

I like the question 'How would you react if you were fired from your job because someone else thought it would be fun to do it, and volunteered to do it for free or $20 a day?'

Well, it seems I am outnumbered over on the yahoo group. Most of them think that dancing for free or for much lower rates is OKAY, because, after all, they want to dance.

I'm getting roundly beat up over there.
And I know some of you are hanging around and posting on bhuz.
It is NOT OKAY to come into a town and start dancing around for free and charging WAY less, and not keeping up with the standards of the community.
*argh*

Maria, try not to take it personally. I post Samira's web page about ethics, standards and practices constantly. When ever I see dancers posting on Craigslist offering to do an entire one hour show for very little money, it goes up.

There are some people who siply will never get it. I recently saw a website for a 'dancer' who not only isn't charging a lot, but dances in a way which is completely offensive. The video on her site shows her in Turkish drop floor position with her crotch to the audience. WTF?!?!??! This woman is an actress and has her resume posted on line. Not a word about who she has trained with - either in Belly dance or in acting! Two VERY important pieces of information!

We can only do what we can do. As I said, I allow other peoples work to speak for me. If you need the link to Samira's site, let me know!

{{{HUGS}}}

Send the link, please!

Here it is!

http://www.samirashuruk.com/standard...uidelines.html

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I like the question 'How would you react if you were fired from your job because someone else thought it would be fun to do it, and volunteered to do it for free or $20 a day?'

I think this is a great question to throw at undercutters.

However, like Tahira said, I think there are those that will simply never be able to see past serving their own need for an audience.

Originally Posted by laura 2

However, like Tahira said, I think there are those that will simply never be able to see past serving their own need for an audience.

Yes, that's how it is.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Here it is!

http://www.samirashuruk.com/standard...uidelines.html

{{{HUGS}}}

thanks, off to yahoo to post again...

Keep in mind, Maria, that you may be accomplishing more than it appears when you 'fight the good fight.'

Very, very few people will come forward & say "oh, gee, you're right, what I've been doing is wrong."

But that doesn't mean they're not hearing your message on some level.

You can send them to Morocco's articles on the subject, too. Go to www.casbahdance.org then 'articles' and 'if prices are up all over...'

I love Morocco's article too,.
that's a good one.

Originally Posted by *maria*

Well, it seems I am outnumbered over on the yahoo group. Most of them think that dancing for free or for much lower rates is OKAY, because, after all, they want to dance.

I'm getting roundly beat up over there.
And I know some of you are hanging around and posting on bhuz.
It is NOT OKAY to come into a town and start dancing around for free and charging WAY less, and not keeping up with the standards of the community.
*argh*

Sorry that you are feeling beat up, but the conversation you have started may lead to positive changes in our community. It truly is fighting the good fight. I realize, of course, that may not be much consolation at the moment.

Please do continue to post. It is such an important topic. I wish I had more to offer but my experience with rates is limited to our dealings with the Ren Faire this year. Per-dancer rates were negotiated and our troupe scheduled a time to perform. Then we heard that the Ren Faire was not living up to their agreement (sending dancers contracts for half of the promised amount) so we told them we wouldn't participate. It was a big disappointment to several in our troupe who really enjoy the Faire but we thought it was important to take a stand. This is so miniscule compared to the battles that other dancers have fought but it is a beginning.

Yes, I heard the same thing about the ren faire, however, my former student who is the only soloist there, stuck to her guns and demanded the pre-negotiated price.
I've never heard anything good about the management over at the ren faire.
Good for you for sticking to your guns.

Maria, I'd like to read it and chime in. I'm signed up on the denverbellydance group, and I see some discussion about rates going on, under the topic of "introductions". Is this the one you're referring to, or is there more somewhere else? I'm also on the ethnic rhythms list, so I'll go check that too.

chin up Maria, I did it in Boston. Dunno if I accomplished much, but more people are aware. it will have long term benefits, not least of which will be increased respect.

Imagine the ruckus that this sort of behaviour could instigate in a field other than ME dance...

I know it sounds silly, but I suddenly got a vision of a union of dancers in bedlah picketing outside a restaurant waving signs that say "Fair Fares" and "The Dancers United will never be Defeated" yelling "SCABS" at the undercutting dancers as they sidle into the restaurant...

Good for you, fighting the good fight.

Best of luck...and send some of those undercutters from Yahoo! to Bhuz. Maybe they'll start to think differently. Eventually.

Natalie

I want to see it too. Is it Denverbellydance or Coloradobellydance?

Zamira - the discussion is on the coloradobellydance group.

Originally Posted by joanneraks

Maria, I'd like to read it and chime in. I'm signed up on the denverbellydance group, and I see some discussion about rates going on, under the topic of "introductions". Is this the one you're referring to, or is there more somewhere else? I'm also on the ethnic rhythms list, so I'll go check that too.

Hi Joanne, it is called the coloradobellydance group. The lovely Kari, who has chimed in this discussion, and is new to Bhuz,
is the moderator.....

I've had some people posting who have taken the side of the professional dancer, so all is good again ~
SOme good issues are now being brought up, such as one that was on Bhuz not too long ago, about "newer" dancers charging the same rates as "us".
I brought up ~ which I humbly think ~ is a good point.
Most of the GP doesn't know the difference. So if we are all charging within a certain range of one another, say, in Colorado,
Denver/BOulder/Fort Collins
$115 - $125 for 1/2 hour ~ then it only benefits us all, instead of the"newer" dancers charging $50 or $75.
The GP is going to go with the cheapest in most ~ not all ~ cases, if they are cold calling ~ so if we are all charging within 10 - 15/20 bucks within one another, so much the better for us all.
Luckily, MOST ~ not all ~ I get lots of cold calls too ~ of my calls are referrals, either they have seen me dance somewhere, or someone who has seen/hired me recommended me ~ and so forth, then they don't complain about what I charge.

Opening up discussion is a good thing!

{{{HUGS}}}