Thread: What the GP thinks we cost (poll results)

It probably was - he saw her live when he was 14 and was instantly smitten, as you'd expect.

i may be "cruel & ignorant" but you damn sure understand what i'm saying. tina, ungodly & unwashed..

Originally Posted by *maria*

hmmm, maybe it was tahia carioca in the book.....i can't check cause i don't have it handy.

I haven't yet read Said's book (it's on my "to be read" pile) so I don't know which dancer he wrote about in there, but for those who may be interested, here is the farewell he wrote after Tahia Carioca died:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/450/cu4.htm

The topic of Orientalism is a headscratcher for me - I can never quite reconcile the fact that Orientalism was in fact perpetuated in part by, well, Orientals! For a period of time the Turks embraced and inculcated European language, customs and the European ideas of Turks. Then Westerners turn back around and examine and define the East which has embraced some of it...lots of chicken/egg going on IMO.

It's not my field so I'm hardly able to do more than give my overall feeling of it.

Shira, thank you so much - I've been looking for that article!

In his book, "Out of Place"
he talks alot about how he was sexually naive, and sheltered he was.
So when he saw T.C., it was a major moment in his life.

agreed. even the egyptians have played the mysterious oriental. wasn't nagua foad carried out by "slaves" once?? tina

Originally Posted by tattood1

i may be "cruel & ignorant" but you damn sure understand what i'm saying. tina, ungodly & unwashed..

what I meant to say was cory's comment I didn't understand, not yours, and I went back and edited my original post to make it clearer....but I think you knew that?

I was wanting Cory to elaborate on what she meant....

Originally Posted by *maria*

Hi Cory,
I didn't take Tina's comment as cruel or ignorant. Alot of people hire bd's because they don't want strippers, at least in my experience from the GP....

I wasn't too sure what you meant either, and wish you would come back and elaborate.
I mean cory's comment.

original post....

Interesting poll, Daniela! At least your figures were better than mine. There is hope, maybe?

maria; gotcha.

Originally Posted by dima

Interesting poll, Daniela! At least your figures were better than mine. There is hope, maybe?

A little better, but still I would have thought they would have estimated higher, being most of them live in NYC, where you pay $10 for a hamburger...

One girl (the one with the highest price) did say she thought it would be higher because we have to account for travel time. That was cool of her.

Originally Posted by *maria*

Not graduating high school or going to college does not make you less "smart" than those that have.

Just a pet peeve of mine......

now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

I agree with you totally. I also think, however, that University provides a network for multiculturalism. It also exposes you to things others may not get to experience. I'm the first one in my family to move away for University and I certainly don't think I'm any smarter than the rest of my family.

two thoughts from me:

1. Regarding the entertainer discussion - For me, great entertainment does not necessarily mean that comedy is part of the show. I think the sultan, shimmy contest, etc., stuff is all intended to be comedic, right? To embarrass the GOH, get the audience laughing, etc. My opinion as an audience member - I'd rather watch a serious, uninterrupted dance performance. (By serious, I don't mean somber.) There is plenty of emotional depth in a good, full length oriental dance, I don't care for or need the comedy or schtick, personally. This is how I feel as both a performer and audience member. Not trying to take sides, just wanted to present another voice. :)

2. BD is not the only misunderstood career! I'd like to do this same poll for my day-job, which is dental hygiene, but it'd probably make me so frustrated I'd cry! How many of you know how many years of college it takes to be a hygienist? What is the level of expertise and responsibility a hygienist has in dentistry? What should a hygienist be paid? And how seriously should you take professional advice from your hygienist? (Not really asking of course, just venting. argh!!! I want respect!!! It's so hard having two lives that the GP assumes they know something about when in reality they have no clue!)

I dropped out of high school and, at 43, I'm still in college. But I'm reasonably bright. ..g.:

I agree with the comments about intelligence not always represented by years of college or lack thereof... hope my rant didn't come across otherwise. I'm just frustrated that the very people I work on and give my heart and soul to think that anybody off the street could walk in and do what I do... grrrrr... which does have some relevance to the bd topic, right? ok, done talking about me.. :)

re: education; i've managed to be exposed to many classes & cultures without benefit of a college degree.

you see there are these common every day items called books & let's not forget the modern invention called the television. these combined have allowed me to glimpse the world.

i think it is supremely patronizing to imply you need to spend 4 years on a college campus usually with one class & color to learn about the world. tina

Anyone who lives in a major city is exposed to a variety of cultures. Even in teeny little 400,000 person towns like mine there are Somalis and Ethiopians and Afghans and Saudis and Egyptians and Samoans and Maori and Jews and Dutch and English and Irish and Scots and ....

Originally Posted by tattood1

re: education; i've managed to be exposed to many classes & cultures without benefit of a college degree.

you see there are these common every day items called books & let's not forget the modern invention called the television. these combined have allowed me to glimpse the world.

i think it is supremely patronizing to imply you need to spend 4 years on a college campus usually with one class & color to learn about the world. tina

There's no need to take things personally and get all defensive. I don't think anyone was saying that they're better than you because they went to college. I think that generally speaking though, college is a positive experience. I'm sure you'll find that a lot of people that went to college don't think they're any smarter than the people who didn't. I mean I'm going to owe the government $40 000 in student loans for an Art History degree. How smart is that?

On the other hand, I think there are a lot of people who don't understand what you can get out of a college education or who can't appreciate the sacrifice and dedication it takes to get a degree. (This does NOT mean that people who chose not to go to college aren't capable. It also doesn't mean that people who don't go don't do something equally challenging/rewarding with their lives.) I could probably write a whole book on what I think about this but its a little off topic.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

A little better, but still I would have thought they would have estimated higher, being most of them live in NYC, where you pay $10 for a hamburger...

One girl (the one with the highest price) did say she thought it would be higher because we have to account for travel time. That was cool of her.

this thread is full of surprises for me!
Being from NYC, your poll really shocked me. You would think the lowest would be $100 on your poll, and go up from there.

*sigh*

You get out of college or life whatever intellectual investment you put into it.
But, there is an element most people who don't attend college miss; just like there's an element that college students who live cushy, catered to lives miss in terms of "street smarts."

Overall, I would say that if you do attend college you have the opportunity for greater exposure - whether you take that opportunity on or not is the question.

I, of course, think that a university education is invaluable and statistics may bear out that more college grads have better overall skills. I haven't seen such a study though and you won't catch me saying that only college grads are intelligent. (I know too many who AREN'T ..g.: )

nobody says a college education is good,bad or indifferent. the argument here is implying bhuzzers without "education" might not understand!! other cultures!! that is patronizing. it's sorta like the ol "i have a black friend" comment people will make to imlpy they know EVERYTHING about black culture. i'd also like to point out i'm not the only bhuzzer who picked up on this comment. tina

To bring it back on topic... When we were talking about what the GP knows or doesn't know about other cultures (the discussion a couple of pages ago about whether or not the GP knows that flamenco grew up out of gypsy culture in Spain - though it's simplistic on our part to say so since it really came from the mixing of multiple cultures, of which the gypsies were one) it made sense to look a little harder at who it is we actually think of when we think of the "GP"

I think most of us, unless we stop and think about it, really operate as if the GP is pretty much like ourselves and our friends and aquaintances. For many of us, the majority of the people we know are college-educated, or are curious and motivated enough to succeed without a degree. For us, that's our picture of "most people". I suspect we each tend to under-estimate how many people do not fall into the same social class as we do.

As long as we don't make value judgements about some people being better or worse than other people, I think it's pretty normal for people to treat their own experience and the people they have been exposed to as their base frame of reference.

This breaks down when we start to look at how "society as a whole" views bellydance. By limiting our frame of reference to only parts of society, we imply that only the opinions of those people actually matter.

Please let's stop using the "college degree" thing here.

I remember a post a year or so or more ago about someone kvetching about the subway strike in NYC, and how the people who work for the NYC transit department are idiots because they didn't go to college. And how dare they ask for more money, or something along those lines.

My dad, whom I love, whom NO ONE says anything bad about who has evey met him, he is a fantastic human being,
retired from the transit - he worked 30 years, started out driving the A train and retired and train master, does not have a degree.
I took GREAT exception to the comments.

It really is upsetting to some people the "college vs. non-college" remarks.
It's a sensitive subject, is all.

then let's take education out of it.

I think what it comes down to... And what upsets us all when we deal with people who don't understand how much dancers are worth, or how much we are worth in the rest of our lives: The majority of society is made up of people who are not curious.

They don't want to know about other cultures, they don't want to see things through your perspective, they don't want to know why you charge what you do, they don't want to know what it takes to become a successful dancer, or dental hygenist, or taxidermist. They don't want to listen to unfamilliar music, they don't want to rethink their stereotypes about female performers, hell, they don't want to think to hard about any stereotypes they hold on to.

In the end, education has nothing to do with it. But all of us here are here because there is something in our life (bellydance) that we are passionate about and that we are actively and constantly working towards learning about. That means Bhuz effectively pulls a population that is inherently more curious and motivated to learn and discuss than the rest of society. I.e. Other people are mostly not like us in that respect.

yay know when i'm PERFORMING i'm ENTERTAINING & i don't feel my JOB is to educate anybody nor is that what they audience expects. tina

Originally Posted by tattood1

yay know when i'm PERFORMING i'm ENTERTAINING & i don't feel my JOB is to educate anybody nor is that what they audience expects. tina

I think this is a good point. For some dancers, they feel the need and the desire to educate as part of their "dance mission." Others simply want to entertain and make people happy. Neither is wrong, both are right - it's simply a matter of the general inclinations and proclivities of the dancer. There's room and performance opportunities for all different kinds of dancers!

When I perform, I entertain, and am good at it. I only "educate" when asked to!
SOme gigs I perform at they want a little Q&A at the end, usually schools and retirement homes.
Otherwise, I'm there to entertain!

Education doesn't equal a college degree, being educated doesn't equal a college degree.

Having a college degree means that you had the wherewithal to pay someone to confer a degree on you, whether you got something from it or not is irrelevent, it's a piece of paper that was conferred because you had the cash, fortitude, strength, time whatever to get it. It can be something that people work very hard to obtain, I'm not saying otherwise.

But that's only one type of education.

Originally Posted by *maria*

Please let's stop using the "college degree" thing here.

I remember a post a year or so or more ago about someone kvetching about the subway strike in NYC, and how the people who work for the NYC transit department are idiots because they didn't go to college. And how dare they ask for more money, or something along those lines.

My dad, whom I love, whom NO ONE says anything bad about who has evey met him, he is a fantastic human being,
retired from the transit - he worked 30 years, started out driving the A train and retired and train master, does not have a degree.
I took GREAT exception to the comments.

It really is upsetting to some people the "college vs. non-college" remarks.
It's a sensitive subject, is all.

Maria -
Conversely, my father, who has a Masters degree in Education, worked for Burlington Northern Railroad for 35 years. Went from brakeman to Conductor. He is also one of the most narrow minded, red necked people on the planet. The City he lives in has had a large influx of people from all over the world. My Dad gets very upset that the Muslim women won't lose their head scarves, the Hispanics won't learn English, etc. When he visits my neighborhood (on of the largest conservative Jewish neighborhoods in the country) he has many snide things to say.

So, two points here: 1) Just because you do 'manual' labour doesn't mean you are uneducated. And 2) Just because you are educated, it doesn't mean that you understand, tolerance and acceptance for other cultures.

{{{HUGS}}}