Thread: What the GP thinks we cost (poll results)

I've always wondered what they average person expects to pay for a bellydancer, so I thought I would ask and find out. I polled a few people at work on what they would expect to pay for a 15 minute bellydance performance. I also thought it would be interesting to get an idea of what they thought our expenses might be like, so I asked them what they thought the average, professional dance costume cost.

15 minute performance:
3 people said they had absolutely no idea
3 people said $200 (bless their hearts)
1 person said $150 (the going rate in my area)
1 person said $100
2 people said between $50 and $75
and... wait for it...
10 people said UNDER $50! ..c:: the lowest number I was given was $15! A few said $20. The rest usually said $30 - $40.

Most people said they would pay so little because "it's only 15 minutes."
And yes I did get a few comments & questions about if there would be nudity. When I said no they dropped their numbers because they said what's the point of having a dancer at a private party if there is no nudity? ,m:: One girl that said under $50 also said she knew that bellydance costumes were expensive! One girl who said under $50 thought $150 (going rate) was outrageously expensive. When a fellow co-worker (bless her) explained to her the huge amount of expenses and time that went into being a dancer she said "well I can understand why it's expensive, but I still think it's too much"

Cost of one costume:
5 said they had absolutely no idea
1 person said about $1,000
1 person said $200 - $300
1 person said about $150
1 person said $100
6 people said under $50

Imagine these people's surprise when I handed them a Dahlal catalog! I thought it was interesting that so many people thought our costumes were so cheap. What do people think we are wearing? That's like the price of a Halloween harem girl costume.

So it looks like, based on this little experiment, there are three main reasons why people think bellydancers are/should be innexpensive.

1. They think our expenses are low. Heck, if costumes cost less than $50 I certainly could afford to charge less. But they don't! Or maybe they don't even take expenses into consideration.

2. They don't understand the value of having a trained dancer. AKA why would I hire a beautiful woman to dance if she isn't taking her clothes off? Or some people said they didn't understand the point of hiring a bellydancer.

3. They only see their money going towards the time spent actually dancing. To them paying $150 for 15 minutes equals $600 an hour pay. They don't take prep time into consideration, or the fact that we can't dance for 40 hours a week the way the average person can go to work.

And of course there is the inevitable reason that some people just don't like to part with their money!

Of course these numbers are probably not an exact reflection on the average person, but I thought it was really interesting.

Wow...that's eye opening.

When friends have asked how much costumes cost they've always been completely shocked - even though ever dancer I've seen working gigs in Brisbane restaurants has been very well dressed.

And costumes are only ONE expense of dancing professionally!

Oh, and thanks for doing this poll Dima. Very interesting!

Very interesting indeed! Thanks for sharing what you found out. I got a Dahlal catalog in the mail on my way to class this week and had it out with my notes. Several of my beginning students leafed through it and had a case of sticker shock over what a pro costume costs. ..g.:

I also believe that people don't understand how much time and money we put into continued training as well as cistuming, etc. I know working actors who train as hard as we do who would NEVER work for less than the SAG daily rate (I'l have to look that up) but many times they are engaged for an entire week adn are only needed for one day. And yes, they are PAID for the entire week. Yet they ahve no qualms offering us $75 for an appearance. Which I have been told is what a Lakers Girl gets paid for an appearance.

I like the anaolgy which Tina uses frequently. How much would you pay the clown?

{{{HUGS}}}

i can add extra reasons
- they assume this is your hobby, something you do for fun,
- they assume this is something you do without paying taxes for it, so "a nice little extra". so what they expect to pay has the status of a tip
-they assume you are NOT trained, cause they have seen an untrained bellydancer in an unpro costume at uncle Joe birthday party last year

and thanks dima, i feel like doing something similar at work

some of my co-workers had asked for my classes, so i handed out some brochures. they alreayd were shocked by my workshop and class prices!

artemisia

Interesting answers.

I'd like to know if they've seen a bellydancer before, and in what context. The responses about costume prices and nudity suggest that if you look cheap and act cheap, well, people assume you are cheap! So someone who had seen Suzy Nippletassles at the local kebab joint might have very different ideas to someone who has seen BDSS.

Edited to say: I wouldn't know what to pay for a clown, but then I don't really go to those sorts of parties.

Very interesting results, and not that surprising unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Emma

Interesting answers.

Edited to say: I wouldn't know what to pay for a clown, but then I don't really go to those sorts of parties.

I've hired a clown a few times (I have children, it wasn't entirely for my own fun and edification!). He was very god, looked after all the kids (around 30 of them) for an hour, doing tricks, giving out prizes and keeping them happy/well behaved while we all prepared the food and after-food games. He charges £80 per hour and I have hired him about three times for one hour. He is busy and sometimes difficult to book, and I reckon he does about 5 gigs each Saturday and Sunday. During the daytime. Each time he came in the same Pinnichio costume and did pretty much the same gig. But worth every penny.

I am told that he spends the rest of his time being a motivational speaker.

Now here's a money-making idea ... little girls' MED dressing up parties where they learn to jiggle too. Mums will undoubtedly pay more than a restaurant owner. But you do have to be good with kids.

Great poll. Thanks for sharing. Its an eye opener on both ends, I guess!

Dima, thanks for sharing the results of your poll!

Your findings on what people think our costumes cost shows exactly why so many people want to borrow our costumes for a Halloween party and feel offended when we say no.

Thanks for that, Dima, very eye opening, yet at the same time, pretty much what I would have expected.

I don't think most people in my area have ever seen a belly dancer, outside a movie. I'm pretty sure this is about what they expect. It's really the reason I put my rates on my website. New students often think it would be fun to hire me for a party, and those conversations were often awkward. I get fewer of those inquiries now that my rates are up.

Originally Posted by Emma

Edited to say: I wouldn't know what to pay for a clown, but then I don't really go to those sorts of parties.

Here in the DC area I've researched what clowns make- and it's usually a minimum of $180 / half hr.
A couple years ago there was an article about the busiest clown in the area- an interesting read- as he had a gambling problem but from all accounts clearly had a gift with children. He was VERY in demand and charged $400/half hour.

[QUOTE=dima;37577]I
10 people said UNDER $50! ..c:: the lowest number I was given was $15! A few said $20. The rest usually said $30 - $40.

NOT surprised *at all*

I can't tell you how many times I quote my rate ~ then stunned silence, then,
client: "Oh, but we only want you for 10 minutes"
me: "That's my rate for UP TO 1/2 hour, then it goes up accordingly"
Client" "Oh, well, we'll call you back" *click*

And they *WILL* find someone for under $50

This is very interesting. I'm thinking of doing the same thing and see what I come up with.
I have hired a clown for my daughters birthday party a few years ago and if I am remembering correctly she was around $300 for the hour. She was great with the kids, was really cute and did a fab job, so why is it people don't understand our rates? Not only clowns, what do people expect to pay any entertainment that comes out to events? Singers, comedians, impersonators, etc.
One of the women I work with called me recently. She was thinking of hiring me for a party she was having but when I told her how much, she said is that what you charge everyone? She was shocked. I explained the reasons for the rate and the importance of hiring a trained dancer and she understood but she said she didn't have that in her budget and asked if I would do it for half. (Half? I don't think so) is what I wanted to say. She told me that she would keep me in mind for future events.
At your day job, would you do the same work at your job, work the same amount of time and put the same amount of effort into it and work for half the money? I don't think so. So why do people expect that from us?

Originally Posted by mahira-michelle

This is very interesting. I'm thinking of doing the same thing and see what I come up with.
I have hired a clown for my daughters birthday party a few years ago and if I am remembering correctly she was around $300 for the hour. She was great with the kids, was really cute and did a fab job, so why is it people don't understand our rates? Not only clowns, what do people expect to pay any entertainment that comes out to events? Singers, comedians, impersonators, etc.
One of the women I work with called me recently. She was thinking of hiring me for a party she was having but when I told her how much, she said is that what you charge everyone? She was shocked. I explained the reasons for the rate and the importance of hiring a trained dancer and she understood but she said she didn't have that in her budget and asked if I would do it for half. (Half? I don't think so) is what I wanted to say. She told me that she would keep me in mind for future events.
At your day job, would you do the same work at your job, work the same amount of time and put the same amount of effort into it and work for half the money? I don't think so. So why do people expect that from us?

People expect it from us, because they find people who will do it.

my thoughts...

re: entertainment; i would say 99.9% of the population has never hired an entertainer or been one. people have no idea. they tend to try to quantify it like this "i get paid $20 an hour & the entertainer is only gonna be here 15 minutes SOOOO" sorta logic. IIFF they have hired an entertainer it was a DJ & they gave him $200 bucks & he stayed all night.

re: women; YESS for some reason if you take your clothes off they don't quibble over price. this is vaguely disturbing because both men & women react this way. it is "ok" to "buy" a women at that point. oh & they might ask what color your pubic hair is too.

i NEVER had a quibble over my price when i was strippin'. my mom's theory is cause i was younger. i don't think that it was it was bluntly i've had a crappy figure ALL my life. also there was not the amount of internet there is now. i was hired usually sight unseen. i think it was the nudity.

i did grams for years in the same $80 evening gown too. heck i knew a gal who used her old prom dresses ??!! this was also before all the classes & dvd to teach you to strip. SO no people don't think they are hiring some trained professional. the reaction i got was "OMIGAWD i would NEVER take my clothes off in public so yay you should get paid!!".

re:art; american has a long history of not valuing art & i feel especially anything involving women. dance tends to be female oriented or at least associated with females so it get's little respect.

re: $itiching; i feel UBDC threads are valid. i feel under cutter threads are valid. *I* don't think it's catty, $itchy, mean girly or what have to point & say DON"t $ucking wear THAT, DON'T $ucking do THAT.

yess these people have seen the girl in the hipscrave cossie dancing for a boxed dinner & it needs to be constantly pointed out that is WRONG!! even if miss hipscarve & her friends don't like it.

if i sound pissy i am. i have not been able to consumate a deal in months. my area has had a population explosion. these people are living in $300,000 houses & they wanna quibble over my price. tina

I agree with all your points above Tina, you said it much better than I.
I'm known around my parts for speaking bluntly, I have two former students who are in this "bellydance collective" that "dance for free for community service" at parties, places, events that PAY! and have a budget for doing so.
and I told them exactly what I thought of that.
Needless to say, I didn't make friends with the "leader" of the collective, nor are my former students much happy with me.
Do I care, NO.....
And you are right, art is not appreciated in this country as in others, especially dance, it's at the bottom of the heap, and not only bellydance, all dance. Except ballet.

These results are pretty standard I think. Though, I don't think anyone at my workplace would say "under $50" - but that's also to do with L.A. where everyone knows you have to pay for entertainment.

Still and all, I think a broad perspective is that belly dance is sexy wiggling and something you go see at a restaurant. Have BDSS changed that? no. not really. I think they've helped, but for most people, it still has that identification and other stereotypes.

Quite honestly, I have to admit that I have changed my thinking of it to "it is what it is," there will always be a niche for it with hobbyists, but I'm pretty sure it will ever go beyond the typical perception as far as gp are concerned.

Tina - to your point re: the people with 300,000$ + homes - so true, and I guess the bottom line here is this: unless you are interested in belly dance, it's not that interesting or valuable. It's a gimmicky thing that is entirely a "prop" to a party theme or such.

We love belly dance but most people just say, "oh how cool you do that, so what's for lunch?"

well if you define community service as fairs etc. i do that & if i didn't i wouldn't have dance gigs at this point. i draw the line at restaurants, night clubs, parties. you will pay me but i have never had success with former & rarely make a deal with the later. tina

Originally Posted by tattood1

well if you define community service as fairs etc. i do that & if i didn't i wouldn't have dance gigs at this point. i draw the line at restaurants, night clubs, parties. you will pay me but i have never had success with former & rarely make a deal with the later. tina

No, they describe community service as "nursing/retirement" homes,
parties for fundraisers, (which by the way, have entertainment budgest!)
stuff like that. Schools, (which also pay) etc. etc.

Fairs and festivals, we all dance for free, I'm event manager for the biggest one in Boulder - and none of the dance acts or other acts get paid.

Originally Posted by tattood1

my thoughts...

re: entertainment; i would say 99.9% of the population has never hired an entertainer or been one. people have no idea. they tend to try to quantify it like this "i get paid $20 an hour & the entertainer is only gonna be here 15 minutes SOOOO" sorta logic.

Good points all around, Tinah, but I especially like this point. People who are used to being paid on an hourly rate as employees are going to think this way. Truly, though, they're not our market anyway.

People who entertain at the level where they hire other entertainment ARE our market, and they're going to have a different point of reference (I hope). Question is, how to reach those people & get into their circle???

One of the reasons I liked working with a singing telegram agency was that he had a lot of repeat business and they NEVER got their entertainment for less than $100!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Good points all around, Tinah, but I especially like this point. People who are used to being paid on an hourly rate as employees are going to think this way. Truly, though, they're not our market anyway.

People who entertain at the level where they hire other entertainment ARE our market, and they're going to have a different point of reference (I hope). Question is, how to reach those people & get into their circle???

One of the reasons I liked working with a singing telegram agency was that he had a lot of repeat business and they NEVER got their entertainment for less than $100!

I agree with both of you and will go one step further to say that I don't think the GP gives a rat's a** what our costumes or training cost...i.e. our cost of doing business isn't their problem. If you're having to break it down at that level it's already over, IMO. You could have two people coming out of the same university with the same degree and the same amount of student loans and one makes 5x more than the other. What it cost to get them to that point becomes irrelevant.

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by Emma

The responses about costume prices and nudity suggest that if you look cheap and act cheap, well, people assume you are cheap!

And yet most said they would pay severely less because there wasn't nudity. ,m:: Some of the people I asked seemed to think that if a woman was taking her clothes off she was "going the extra mile" and deserved to be paid more. But apparently training, hard work and talent are not worth as much as the willingness to get naked in front of strangers.

The more I think about it the more insulted I am that people think I would wear a $50 costume!

Originally Posted by danidance

Still and all, I think a broad perspective is that belly dance is sexy wiggling and something you go see at a restaurant. Have BDSS changed that? no. not really. I think they've helped, but for most people, it still has that identification and other stereotypes.

Interesting tid bit here. One of the people I asked had seen the BDSS at Lalipolooza (spelling?) and thought it was really cool. He seemed to have better respect for it than many of the others. I don't remember what he voted, but I think he said at least more than $50!

I don't even think most people have seen belly dancers at a restaurant, at least around here. Many people go their whole lives without eating in a middle eastern restarant. Most, even.

I think the image people have in mind is nothing like reality. They think hiring a belly dancer means a woman wearing something vaguely filmy will wriggle her hips at the birthday boy for a few minutes, flirt with him suggestively to amuse the group & leave. (you know, like The Simpsons...)

It would be interesting to cross-reference a survey like that and see how the question 'have you ever seen a bellydancer in real life?' correlates with what they think it might cost.

off topic: we do kids parties, doesnt pay that well (we charge 125-150€ for these, and that's two hours) and boy, is it tiring (and not for me, i dont have the patience for it, but i have a teacher who's is really good at it...). but you are right, the mothers so far never got all funny about the price, and just said, oh, that sounds fine, how do i pay.

Originally Posted by KathyC

Now here's a money-making idea ... little girls' MED dressing up parties where they learn to jiggle too. Mums will undoubtedly pay more than a restaurant owner. But you do have to be good with kids.

hm, not sure i agree, a lot of the calls i get, or rather used to get, or these days they dont call back as they found a dancer for 1/4 of what i charge, is from people looking for a dancer for their husbands (or boss'es) 40th or 50th birtday party, or for 25 years wedding anniversaries. i've done loads of these. mostly people on an hourly wage who have never organised a party in their life.....

also, all the hen gigs i do, (and charge about 200€ for), are for young people (this is a student town), who are on hourly wages or even student loans.

i do agree that the only time i get requests for multiple dancers doing multiple gigs, the big shows, this is from business clients, hotels, event organisers, etc, that dont think by the hour but by the task/product.

Artemisia

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Good points all around, Tinah, but I especially like this point. People who are used to being paid on an hourly rate as employees are going to think this way. Truly, though, they're not our market anyway.

People who entertain at the level where they hire other entertainment ARE our market, and they're going to have a different point of reference (I hope). Question is, how to reach those people & get into their circle???

One of the reasons I liked working with a singing telegram agency was that he had a lot of repeat business and they NEVER got their entertainment for less than $100!

re: BDSS; the GP has never heard of them or if they have they assume they were models hired to do those DVDS & not really bellydancer or "typical" either.

yes bders are uumm "TAME" strippers. if you're organizing an office party & you are concerned a stripper might lead to complaints you hire a bder. play totally safe & get a DJ is better. hey after a few drinks some women will probably "go wild" & dance on the tables any way. tina

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pajFcFWpC9M

read the comments if you want to know what gp thinks, even if the dancing is not all bad...