Thread: Professional troupes?

When I was in a troupe, most of the money I made was through solo gigs the troupe leader booked me for -- nursing homes, restaurants, parties.


Yet we spent most of our troupe time on group choreos - which we rarely got paid to perform as a group. (or we'd get a token payment that amounted to $10 per dancer).

Is this typical? Are pro troupes finding enough paid gigs, as a group, to make it worth a professional dancer's time to attend rehearsals, buy troupe costumes, etc?

If so, where and how are you finding these gigs?

If not, I'm wondering if pros are better off joining together into a loose association to market themselves and do skill-building activities, and leave off the group choreos and matching costumes?

(not talking about student troupes, but people who dance for income)

i always got the impression that troupes were more for stage performances. cos there you have the space to have a bunch of people dancing, plus the spacial movements of one group of dancers compared to another are more visible when the audience is slightly above the dancers. and yeah, the fact that paying a troupe for a normal gig is either financially not worth it for the individual dancers or way to expensive for the client...

For the troupe I'm in, the leader books gigs (weddings and large theatre shows) and the dancers get a portion of the booking income or a percentage of ticket sales. The troupe members don't buy the costumes so the only output is time. The next gig we have is dancing for an audience of 1,500 people (I don't think I've ever performed anything in front of that many eyeballs) and I believe will be televised -- it's the Miss Asia USA pageant, which apparently includes the Middle East.

It probably depends on your location and demand for a larger troupe. If there isn't much demand, then I suppose the loose assosiation might be more productive than waiting around for pro troupe gigs.

Our troupe has 5. We rarely get to perform private gigs with all 5 of us, maybe 4 or 5 a year. But we charge a fair amount, so the few we get make us good money. More often we get booked for 2 or 3 of us (due to cost), which often works out fine due to individual availability.

If all 5 of us perform, all the cash goes into our troupe account. If it is only 2 or 3 of us, we put some in our account and split the rest between performers. We pretty much look after our own solo gigs. Over all, it is worth it for us. We are able to use troupe funds to invest in costuming and other things. I think this is where we may differ from other Pro Troupes - we don't get paid individually for group performances, but then again, we don't pay for costuming out of our own pocket. We're sort of more self-sustaining than profitable. (for now, heh heh).

We make additional income for the troupe by hosting events (shows, workshops, etc.) Most of our bookings come from our website and referrals. We're lucky, there aren't many professional troupes in our area, and we're very friendly with the ones that are around, so the work get shared pretty fairly.

We don't have a Director per se, and there are no formal "rules" about manditory rehearsals, etc. but we find it is totally worth it to have weekly 2-3hr rehearsals. We have worked out different versions of our choreos for 2 up to 5 dancers, so regular rehearsal keeps us prepared and versatile.

If I can toot our own horn...we are always complimented on how cohesive we are, that our group energy and dynamic is wonderful. I credit that to hours of rehearsing together. You can't get that same quality if you aren't consistent with rehearsals. And the better you are, the better your reputation, the more referrals, the more gigs....etc. etc.

I've seen what I call "Super Groups", where Pro dancers get together to work on one project as a troupe. I can honestly say while they are good, they aren't great. Something that is thrown together often looks like it has been, and dancers often forget that being a soloist and being a group performer are two separate sets of skills. They look like they don't usually dance together. Which, IMHO, kind of defeats the purpose of a troupe performance.

I've never thought there was much demand... like Kathiya described above... but I know Artemisia has been lining up some big corporate things for her troupe, and on another thread she said

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

especially when we are running into 4 figure deals, i think this is understandable.

so now I'm curious!!!

I suspect Lotus Niraja's troupe, and Jillina's Sahlala dancers, etc. manage to pull paying group gigs.

I'm just wondering how viable it is from a business standpoint, and how common it is, and where one looks for such gigs!

I think it would be awesome to audition and put together a serious pro troupe (rather than a volunteer or pay-to-play troupe) but not if it's asking a lot of people to put in hard work and investment for little or no reward.

Thanks, Elijay! I posted before your post appeared.

Originally Posted by elljay

We rarely get to perform private gigs with all 5 of us, maybe 4 or 5 a year. But we charge a fair amount, so the few we get make us good money. More often we get booked for 2 or 3 of us (due to cost), which often works out fine due to individual availability.

I'm especially curious about this. Do you mind sharing more detail? What kinds of gigs are these? Especially the big ones, but the smaller ones as well.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Jillina's Sahlala dancers, etc. manage to pull paying group gigs.

I believe Sahlala still does 2 regular gigs each night every Saturday and Sunday, performing at local restaurants as a group. They don't pay for costumes, and at one time they got $60 per performer per gig. There has been a bit of undercutting in the area, esp as far as troupes are concerned, so this may not be true anymore.

I'm in a pro troupe. We hire out both as soloists and as a group, and when we were going full force, would get several full-group gigs a year. Generally we charge the going rate for soloists, right now it's $200 per dancer. Last year we did two private parties where we did two shows as a group and then acted as ambience afterwards - we charged (and got) $200 per dancer per hour - there were six of us, and we were "on the clock" for five hours.

Restaurants are another matter - we've done NYE shows at the big club where I work and gotten as much as $100 per dancer - I wouldn't do it for less. The good thing is that here in Dallas there aren't very many "pro" troupes, so there's not a ton of competition.

The big gigs are usually corporate events, like conferences or themed parties for companies with lots of money. For example, last year we were hired for a conference of Scientists that were having a "Casino Theme" night at a big hotel in Whistler. They paid our show fee, plus travel fee and accomodation. There are also some big Community events that actually have sizable budgets that we are paid to do. These are nice, because although they don't pay quite as much, they are usually regular annual gigs for us. Low hassle factor and good exposure.

The smaller events for 2 or 3 of us are your typical weddings, birthday parties, smaller community events, and smaller corporate events that often a solo dancer would do. When we book these, it is usually a result of the client wanting to hire the whole troupe but not being able to afford it.

Does that help, Lauren?

Yes, it helps.

Now I just have to figure out

A) Whether such group gigs might exist in my area
B) How one gets them (put up a website and hope they find it? Sign up with a agent? Market to party planners?)
C) Whether I'm interested in herding a bunch of cats!

I LOVE working with my student group, but it's a no-cut group with varying levels of dedication. I have a few students who are more dedicated and they would like to be doing more...

It would be fun to invite some other pros and top students and see what we're capable of... but I'm not going to do that just for the ego trip if there's no market for it.

From what I have been able to see here in LA, most really successful pro troupes are between 3 - 5 dancers and most of them don't dance together on a regular basis. Bohemia has about 6 restaurants / hookah lounges which they they send single dancers to every Friday and Saturday night. But they do pull the troupe together for big events such as The Boys & Girls Club fund raiser a couple of weeks ago in Long Beach. (I was reading tarot cards at that one.) I know that I was paid well for what I did, so I am sure that they were also.

{{{HUGS}}}

the paid gigs with more than one dancer here, are mostly corporate events for 2-3-4 dancers. i charge 150 to 200 € per dancer for those if it's one set, and around 100-150€ per dancer per set if it's multiple sets.

i know there is demand for even bigger shows for even bigger events, like the one huge gig we had a few years back, but those kind of deals are usually through entertainment agencies, huge corporate events dont book their own entertainment. so right now i'm trying to convince the entertainment agencies to put us on there websites as "a group" and not just solo dancers,to let their clients know that they can book a performance dance group in oriental dance, as dinner entertainment etc, and not just one, or two bellydancers....

the huge gig we had, the guy that organised it, he had called up half a dozen of entertainment agencies asking for a dozen of bellydancers and they had all told him that that could not be done; that nobody had that many dancers, so, luckily rather than quit he found us directly...and worked with us directly. but that is rare.

if people ask for multiple dancers the only thing the agencies offer is samba and gogo... never bellydance.

but this month is crazy, we're gigging every weekend and it's all corporate for more than one dancer!!!

so my troupe, as in the advanced students, yes, we do community events, and stage shows, that's it.

but the "troupe", as in me and the other teachers more or less, there is an increasing demand for duo/trio gigs here, apparently, so i'm thinking how to continue working in that direction, to have paid gigs for a "small" troupe.

i like the idea of "loose" associations with other dancers, i'm sharing a gig with queenie in a few weeks time, and we're rehearsing for it together beforehand. it's a new challenge.

and the huuuuge gig, the numbers were like this

they had hired 4 professional dancers really (me, khalida, serkan, salwa), and i charged them i think 300€ per dancer for that, plus they hired my "student" troupe, 20 people! and i charged them a 100€ per dancer for that, and i'm sure i charged them for something else, cause we came out at a little under 4000€.

from that i paid each of the professional performers their fee (and they billed me, not the organiser), and i used the money the organiser paid for the students to pay for studio time, travel fees and to "sponsor" costumes for the troupe, which they could buy from me at a fraction of the price.

the money problem here is that the girls in the student troupe, most of them i cant pay them officially cause none of them have a business license/are set up as self-employed. and for the couple of gigs we have per year, it's not really worth it doing that for them either.

while when i work with other pro's such as khalida or queenie, they can make up a bill, to me or directly to the organiser for their share.

with the smaller gigs/the students, when they are paid, i fix this by bartering with them for classes (they dont get paid for the gig, but get a term of classes for free), and for some gigs we use the money coming in to buy costumes.

we have a big gig coming up for a local city, and we're soooo going bella shopping after! haha!

I am in a professional Dance Company and we perform like Sahlala Dancers, in one restaurant in San Diego regularly in the last year and a half every Friday and Saturday for early shows and at least 4 times a month for later shows
we get paid for each show per dancer, both shows at discounted rate.
We rehearse every week, and if necessary more to practice/learn new chroegraphies.
There are about 7-8 of us, and core group (from 2-4 dancers at a time)usually go to private parties, corporate events and Library shows, each show we try to get anywhere from $50-125 per dancer.

This is all really enlightening, I appreciate everyone's openness so much!

There is only one seriously pro troupe in my area (that I know of), the rest are student troupes. I'm not sure the area would sustain more than one, frankly, and mostly I like to stay in my own suburban area to avoid the politics of the larger scene.

I think for now I'll stick with having a student rep group, and occasionally drawing from a few 'pro quality' students for higher profile GP shows and such.

Boy, it would be fun to see what could be accomplished, though!

Out of curiosity, do any of you have to pay to be in a professional troupe (other than splitting studio fees and/or costume rental)?

hey, i'm always in doubt as to when consider a class a class (that people need to pay for) and when to consider it rehearsals (where they dont pay)...

sometimes i really feel like i'm not rehearsing, but "teaching"... so it's in constant flux.

we're trying a new approach next year, with a very very small "pro" troupe, and those will be "rehearsals", not "classes", and to have the student troupe completely as a class, with some (non paid) rehearsals.

i've been toying with the idea of having a student troupe were people pay a small fixed membership fee, but i'm just not sure, as soo much of the student stuff now seems to work in just class time.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

This is all really enlightening, I appreciate everyone's openness so much!

Boy, it would be fun to see what could be accomplished . . .

I've been toying with this idea of a "pro" troupe for several years now and here's how I see it:

Professional BD troupes should be comprised of pro-level dancers only. These are dancers who have the technical ability and presence to work as solists, even if they don't actively gig.

Professional BD shows should follow the same format as any other stage show: a combination of large group, small group/duet and solo pieces, each piece averaging no more than 5-7 minutes, although some pieces will be shorter. This doesn't mean that the same group can't be out on stage for more than just 5 minutes at a time; rather it means that any given piece of music is probably about 5 minutes and some of these can be strung together to make a 10- to 15-minute set out of a longer show.

When learning new group choreos, at least one three-hour rehearsal weekly is needed; assume 6-8 weeks to have 15-30 minutes of group dance under the group's collective belt. Small groups/duets can get their start (and check-ups) at rehearsals, then rehearse on their own; the same for soloists. After choreos are well-established, probably a couple of 2-hour rehearsals a month is all that's needed to keep the choreos polished, with extra rehearsal just prior to a gig.

These are just a couple of the logistical items for group dancing . . . there are so many more! Maintaining a pro troupe . . . that's really an accomplishment!

I think that the best way to get pro gigs for a troupe may be through entertainment agencies -- at least until word of mouth is such that you can sustain it on your own. I think having info re: pro troupe on a dancer's entertainment website is another really good option.

The model I'm thinking of is for luau entertainment in the U.S. The luau entertainment groups with which I am familiar here in Southern California allow prospective clients to select from several packages that include one or two dancers with their canned music (sound familiar?) all the way to a couple dozen dancers, musicians, etc, providing live music and dance representing several South Pacific traditions. The $$ can be anywhere from a couple hundred to several/many thousand dollars.

Ahhhh, to latch onto gigs where there is real money to be made . . . is there anything better than making decent money while doing something you love?

*thinks*

Uh, no.

Deborah

Originally Posted by maliaraqs

Out of curiosity, do any of you have to pay to be in a professional troupe (other than splitting studio fees and/or costume rental)?

When I was in a pro troupe, we had dues that went towards studio rental and some costuming costs.

Unlike Lauren, some of us don't have our own studios that we can just unlock and use whenever we want to. [consider that sentence written in professional jealousy -- of the most loving kind, of course. ]

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

When I was in a pro troupe, we had dues that went towards studio rental and some costuming costs.

Unlike Lauren, some of us don't have our own studios that we can just unlock and use whenever we want to. [consider that sentence written in professional jealousy -- of the most loving kind, of course. ]

Deborah

Heee! Although I'm renting some back rooms out to massage therapists now, and I've got classes going on every evening and Saturday mornings. So the only time I can do that, really, is during the day when everyone is at work or on Sundays. Still, that's better than most people have it, I know.

I'm not at all surprised to hear that you've been tossing the idea around for ages, too, Deborah... since we seem to share thought patterns so often.

Originally Posted by maliaraqs

Out of curiosity, do any of you have to pay to be in a professional troupe (other than splitting studio fees and/or costume rental)?

No we dont pay to be in the group or membership but yes we are responsible to pay for our own costumes
Most of of us take classes in specific technique which is used and make easy for choreographies.
usually we dont need to pay for rental as we use whatever space we have available...once a week rehearsal, once a week core group rehearsal for new choreographies, and 2-3 hour workshop for new choroegraphies for the whole troupe

Hey Delik remember our Oriental Jewels days? I was in that for too long! The goal was to be a professional troupe. However, what ended up happening was we were dancing at events and restaurants and not getting paid and paying once a week for rehearsal (rent), and of course our costumes!! It was costing too much to be in that so called professional troupe. The only thing I got from it was learning some nice choreographies, and then eventually being stabbed in the back by a couple of other troupe members.

I think if you have a professional troupe you must have goals. In Delik's case they have a regular job at Zorba's and do have enough dancers to rotate so they don't all have to dance every week. I think if you have a regular job like that then it is worth it and makes sense to have a professional troupe. Otherwise, maybe just form a group of other professionals/teachers and learn some group choreogrpahies for those times when someone wants to hire a group for weddings and such. I think it does depend a lot on the area you live in, if there is a need on a regular basis then maybe it is worth it, otherwise just a casual get together with other professionals may be all you need.
Check out the need Lauren, contact restaurants, clubs, and party planners and see what the situation is and then go from there. Then you have to decide who you think are skilled enough, professional enough and can get along well enough to pull it off. You are a smart woman, I am sure once you do your research you will make the right decision. Good-luck!

Thanks, but there's no need. We don't have any restaurants or clubs large enough for a whole troupe to appear, even if the owners would pay! A loose marketing association of soloists makes sense here (and that seems to be what the working troupes focus on) but a lot of investment in creating/rehearsing/costuming group numbers wouldn't pay off here, I think.

I'm going to continue working with my student group and hand-picking the 'pro-ready' students for small group gigs. That's my compromise.

This has been interesting, though!