Thread: Who posts prices?

Okay, I am not actually looking for a survey of who all posts prices on their website, but I am curious. I hear a lot of talk about undercutting and such, and the need to educate newbie performers. So I did a little search here in the Denver area, and could not find mention of a single performance price! Dancers who can perform all sorts of gigs, with all sorts of props, but no prices? Is my google broken? Is this just a Denver thing? I tried looking in a couple of other major cities, and again, could not find a price even for basic shows. Maybe I am looking in the wrong cities? From the amount of posts I see about undercutting and how to stop it, I expected everyone to have set prices flashing in neon letters somewhere Any opinions to help explain this trend? I know it is complicated to explain what is involved in a show for what price, but I was surprised to not even find a baseline price.
Nikki

It's really hard to know whether you're undercutting or not when no one shares price info, isn't it? It's like 'I won't tell you how much I charge, but if you charge less I'll try to ruin you!'

My prices are on my site: Belly Dance by Lauren and the Hips Afire Bellydancers

Please be aware that I'm in a small town in the midwest where prices are VERY cheap.

I put them up after a discussion about the topic here on Bhuz. Several of us used a similar template, changing the prices and details to suit our local markets. So I know there's a smattering of dancers around the country publishing price info.

Samira Shuruk compiles info about standard prices in each area, you can find her list at Standard rates and professional links and guidelines

I think there are two groups on this one and in my opinion neither one is wrong or right. One dancer posts her prices, and the other doesn't. Each one has her very valid reasons. I don't post my prices, when I was in sales I was always told not to give out the price right away - so I try to talk to the customer first and then I tell them.

That's just how I like to do it for now, who knows, I might change my mind later. I know all the reason why dancers post their prices, and I actully agree with them, I just choose not to.
But if a belly dancer called me, introduced herself and asked me how much I charge, I would give her all the info regarding my prices, times, etc.
So it's not like I'm trying to hide it from the dancers. I am not designing my website for other belly dancers in mind anyways, they're not my market.
Dancers shouldn't feel like they have to spy and lurk around other dancers's sites, communication should be open about it.

Originally Posted by Marianna

I think there are two groups on this one and in my opinion neither one is wrong or right.

<snip>

Dancers shouldn't feel like they have to spy and lurk around other dancers's sites, communication should be open about it.

I totally agree.

Ideally a new dancer breaking into the market has the support of her teacher and/or some members of the professional dance community who can advise her, too.

I have my prices on my website. I do get calls asking me if I'll dance for less. Frustrating.

{{{HUGS}}}

i have some prices on my website. since i do so
- the number of calls thinking it'll cost 20E has drastically gone down - yeay!
- people seem to be more educated by the time they call, they know two dancers or two sets will cost more than one

i have it as a "from....", so i can charge more than it says on there, still add extra charges for special requests, travel fee, etc...

I post price ranges on my website - I got tired of people calling expecting me to dance for $50 bucks. Now when people call, they are typically prepared for my final quote. I understand people not wanting to post prices, as it gives them more flexibility to quote higher and lower as they see fit, but I find it cuts down on fruitless calls.

Another vote for posting prices.

Like Shems, I used to get tons of inquiries about dancing for $50 (because as with many other communities, there is a very small yet outspoken handful of dancers who do, around here). So I'm listing all of my prices on my website, plus a detailed description of what my sets entail, with the reasoning that it will help keep the riff raff at bay. If they want cheap, they've got plenty of other options - but at least they'll leave me alone!

That being said, however, I think any new dancer should speak to more established pros or her teacher when determining her rates. Ironically, many of the cheapest dancers in my area post it all over their websites - so you really can't trust everything that you read on teh intraweb ..c::

By the way, I also have a disclaimer that all of the prices listed on my site are a starting point and don't reflect travel time, costume changes, or other "extras."

That way, nobody freaks out if I quote slightly higher ..g.:

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

By the way, I also have a disclaimer that all of the prices listed on my site are a starting point and don't reflect travel time, costume changes, or other "extras."

That way, nobody freaks out if I quote slightly higher ..g.:

Ditto.
I have "starting at" prices. I'd rather weed out the "$50" price calls. There is undercutting around here, too. Frustrating. BUT at least those who have received the "I'll dance for Hummous and Happy Hour" quotes can see that I present something different and charge accordingly.
Will some dancers go to my site and think "ooooh, I'll just quote a little less than her"? (this is one common rationalization for not posting prices)...maybe they will maybe they won't. I don't charge the minimum, though, so this is going to happen anyway.
When people call me, I always describe my show and everything that I do before I quote the price.

Maybe you can ask a few of the established performers privately. Sounds like everyone's avoiding the subject, from the glaring absence of posted prices.
I have always posted my fees for everything, because I hate commercials or ads for things that obviously leave out the price, so you have no clue at all what to expect (usually, a high price, right?).
Maybe you'll start the trend in the right direction!

Originally Posted by micamica

Okay, I am not actually looking for a survey of who all posts prices on their website, but I am curious. I hear a lot of talk about undercutting and such, and the need to educate newbie performers. So I did a little search here in the Denver area, and could not find mention of a single performance price! Dancers who can perform all sorts of gigs, with all sorts of props, but no prices? Is my google broken? Is this just a Denver thing? I tried looking in a couple of other major cities, and again, could not find a price even for basic shows. Maybe I am looking in the wrong cities? From the amount of posts I see about undercutting and how to stop it, I expected everyone to have set prices flashing in neon letters somewhere Any opinions to help explain this trend? I know it is complicated to explain what is involved in a show for what price, but I was surprised to not even find a baseline price.
Nikki

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Ditto.

Will some dancers go to my site and think "ooooh, I'll just quote a little less than her"? (this is one common rationalization for not posting prices)...maybe they will maybe they won't. I don't charge the minimum, though, so this is going to happen anyway.

Veering just slightly OT for a moment... Not directed at you, Nikki, or anyone on this thread, just a topic we haven't addressed in a while on Bhuz that should be mentioned often for newer dancers to think about.

Another common rationalization is 'I haven't been dancing as long as the other pros, I should charge less.'

But each area should have a standard minimum. Those who don't feel they're ready to charge the minimum aren't ready to go pro yet. (Even people who are brand new to the workforce get minimum wage, right? If they didn't it would be meaningless, experienced people wouldn't be able to get jobs, and the general quality of the workforce in the country would decline.)

Those who've been around longer and have a reputation and a network of referrals can charge more than the minimum, but no one should be charging less.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Will some dancers go to my site and think "ooooh, I'll just quote a little less than her"? (this is one common rationalization for not posting prices)...maybe they will maybe they won't. I don't charge the minimum, though, so this is going to happen anyway.
When people call me, I always describe my show and everything that I do before I quote the price.

Yeah, that's what sort of sucks about being at the high end of the standard rates - I get lowballed all the time, but not always by undercutters. And I can't really b*tch because I actively chose to price myself at a point that reflects my experience, my ongoing training and my lust for sparklies. If somebody wants to save $25-50, that's their prerogative and I can't get mad at dancers who charge less than me, but still charge the going rate.

This is why I take such a vested interest in image - not that image trumps talent in any way, but it can help get you over the pricing hump when a prospect can visually see the level of quality you offer as an entertainment industry pro.

I post prices. I am a busy person and when I am booking services, if I have to call or leave a message for a call back, I tend not to pursue it. I do it because I like to treat my clients exactly how I would like to be treated. Yes there is a danger of the informed undercutter, but that is a slippery slope on the part of the undercutter, and more danger to their business then to mine.

I also post prices! I figure peoeple will still ask me to dance for less if they go that route but the ones who won't I don't want to work for anyhow. But I am also comfortable with what my time is REALLY worth to me. In the end thats the bottom line!
xoxo,
-NJ

Hmm, interesting stuff. So if I'm understanding correctly, it isn't my incorrect searching style that is the problem, it really is that most dancers do not have prices online (although some do). I was doing a search online as an "average jane" looking for show prices rather than a dancer looking for the prices of other performers in the area. I can see now why there is so much misunderstanding on part of the public as to what the "going rate" is. Even my own dear husband thought pros would be charging around $30-$40 an hour!
I think he was basing this on how much I make teaching a fitness class at a local rec center. Which, I can understand the rational. After all, when I am there I am giving personal attention to several students for an entire hour for that price, vs. when I am dancing I am only performing for a few minutes, with no need to remember what I did last time, or who has a hip replacement. Based on this reasoning I can see why the public often assumes for $50 a 1/2 hour gig. is reasonable.
I can understand reasons both for and against price posting on the web. I was just looking to see if the public was incredibly stupid because bellydancers are so obvious about prices, or if the public is just uninformed because bellydancers are not so obvious about prices. Thanks ladies!
Nikki

Nikki,
In general the public is completely uninformed about "per service" pricing of jobs as opposed to "per hour" rates.
Our rates are "per service" but of course based upon our costs and our *total* invested time for that gig as well as experience/education. These rates also vary based upon the local/regional belly dance economy and demographics.
If you get an estimate from a general contractor for a "job" or "service", you see the breakdown- labor, supplies etc. Labor varies of course depending upon specialty and experience. Our customers don't see the itemization breakdown and figure we are charging outlandish prices "per minute".

Hmmmmmm. If we made $30 an hour, that means I'd get paid $10 for a full set.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

,r:;

I did post prices and then I removed them...just because I was getting a lot of people contacting me and starting a whole relationship via email only to fail to read where I was located in the city and to freak out and decide that it wasn't worth the 30-40 minute drive. So, I decided to remove an element (the pricing), to make them contact me, so we can get everything out in the open up front (does that make sense)? Also, I feel that if I don't list prices, I can customize events a little better, instead of someone ignoring the "base price" disclaimer and thinking that includes anything they want - and then the price I quote is it and there is no confusion.

Funny thing, I noticed when my prices were listed I was contacted a few times a week, but now that they are down, that has subsided...but then again out of all of the inquiries I had in one month, only one actually panned out as a new private student (and a couple are planning on signing up for my classes) - so quality vs. quantity I guess... I would rather have less people contact me and be serious about following through rather than a ton of people contact me and waste my time...kwim?

I have my prices in my permance booking page, but it is towards the bottom. I need to redesign my page, but I am doing it at a slow pace as I have almost no time for it now.
They really need to read thru to get to prices that is why sometimes I get calls for asking my prices or other information like my classes and class prices even though they visited my page and still has not seen it...either my site is not well read or just they like to check my bio/pics/videos to decide if I am worth to hire.
So I get calls, I give them my prices and dont go lower. I was never asked to dance for $50, I am not sure why they would think so anyways, unless the client knows someone would do it.
They tell me if they know a dancer they hired few years back for $100 and she no longer dances, I give my price and refer to my references and videos.
So posting prices actually good to eliminate those are not in your price range. I would think that if the clients can afford your price and find you worth to hire at that price they will no matter what, not even bargaining a penny.

Originally Posted by micamica

Hmm, interesting stuff. So if I'm understanding correctly, it isn't my incorrect searching style that is the problem, it really is that most dancers do not have prices online (although some do). I was doing a search online as an "average jane" looking for show prices rather than a dancer looking for the prices of other performers in the area. I can see now why there is so much misunderstanding on part of the public as to what the "going rate" is. Even my own dear husband thought pros would be charging around $30-$40 an hour!
I think he was basing this on how much I make teaching a fitness class at a local rec center. Which, I can understand the rational. After all, when I am there I am giving personal attention to several students for an entire hour for that price, vs. when I am dancing I am only performing for a few minutes, with no need to remember what I did last time, or who has a hip replacement. Based on this reasoning I can see why the public often assumes for $50 a 1/2 hour gig. is reasonable.
I can understand reasons both for and against price posting on the web. I was just looking to see if the public was incredibly stupid because bellydancers are so obvious about prices, or if the public is just uninformed because bellydancers are not so obvious about prices. Thanks ladies!
Nikki

I can see where the misconceptions come from. Here's the facts:

1) I don't wear a $600 outfit to teach

2) I don't drive 1/2 an hour each way to teach for 15 minutes

3) I don't spend X hours in rehearsal and music mixing to teach for 15 minutes

4) I don't spend $XX and many hours on advertising/marketing for each single hour of teaching (this is the big one -- when I do teach a one-time class at a party I charge MORE than for a 15 minute show performance, although my regular ongoing teaching rate is significantly less.)

4.5) If you hire a plumber to work for your company 40 hours a week, you'll pay less than 1/2 as much as if you hire a plumber to come to your house for an hour. There's huge value in ongoing work...

5) Party planners are comparing you to the cost of other entertainment, NOT the cost of hiring a fitness instructor. Take a look at what clowns, magicians, etc. in your area charge to entertain at parties. In my area, it's $125 for a (brief) show. And up. So that's what I charge.

I figure if I'm not worth as much as a clown, I should hang up my bedlah.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I figure if I'm not worth as much as a clown, I should hang up my bedlah.

LOL! You could always offer to wear the red nose as well....now THERE'S a look! ..l;,

The copy that I've written for my as-yet-unpublished-site includes "from $$" pricing, for each type of service I offer. There are also clear references to "customized packages," etc.

Deborah

I would only like to add that a clown is a good comparison, as clowing also takes a long time to learn, requires costumes, extensive make-up, and suffers from people having 'the wrong idea' about the art form and the cliche red nose & funny wig that many clowns don't conform to.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I would only like to add that a clown is a good comparison, as clowing also takes a long time to learn, requires costumes, extensive make-up, and suffers from people having 'the wrong idea' about the art form and the cliche red nose & funny wig that many clowns don't conform to.

I know you're right. Same is true of plumbers (who charge as much as therapists, but need more tools and trucks to do their job.)


So... somewhere on the internet, on a message board, a clown is advising the newer clowns to uphold the minimum pricing because they're worth at least as much as a bellydancer. ,f:: Totally possible.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I know you're right. Same is true of plumbers (who charge as much as therapists, but need more tools and trucks to do their job.)


So... somewhere on the internet, on a message board, a clown is advising the newer clowns to uphold the minimum pricing because they're worth at least as much as a bellydancer. ,f:: Totally possible.

Oh my god that is hilarious!! ..l;, Thanks Lauren!

As often as I hear bhuzzers saying "I'm worth at least as much as a clown" I tend to think this phrase is meaning something slightly derogatory about clowns. I never thought about that the fact that it is an art form that takes training, special makeup and accessories, special costumes, a willingness to put with stereotypes, etc. Thanks for making me think Caroline, and opening up my mind a bit!

Nikki

Originally Posted by mmouse1534

I also post prices! I figure peoeple will still ask me to dance for less if they go that route but the ones who won't I don't want to work for anyhow. But I am also comfortable with what my time is REALLY worth to me. In the end thats the bottom line!
xoxo,
-NJ

I, too, post my prices. I've also been one of the leaders in the area in raising rates over the years and communicating to my peers when I've done so - most often the top dancers in the area have followed suit. When I first started gigging here in Dallas in 2002, the going rate for parties was $125, and there were many who would charge less. Now my minimum is $200, and very few charge less than $175 for a short performance. Yes, we have our undercutters too, but I agree with Nadirah that I'm not fussed about not getting those jobs.

I also know that my prices are on the high end, so I have some built-in wiggle room as well, which is good, especially in this economy. However, the last party I did paid me $250 without even attempting to haggle, and then paid me extra on top of that. So posting my prices has been overall a good experience for me.

Originally Posted by micamica

As often as I hear bhuzzers saying "I'm worth at least as much as a clown" I tend to think this phrase is meaning something slightly derogatory about clowns. I never thought about that the fact that it is an art form that takes training, special makeup and accessories, special costumes, a willingness to put with stereotypes, etc. Thanks for making me think Caroline, and opening up my mind a bit!

Nikki

Yeah... ...I started that phrase, and I never meant for it to be derogatory toward clowns (though I can see how comes off that way).

I chose a clown because it's not something we think of as being overpriced or worth MORE than a bellydancer in any way. I couldn't justify charging the same as a stripper, for instance, or *some* magicians who might bring giant props and a sparkly assistant.

A clown seems about right for comparison, actually, in terms of training, special skills, prep time, etc.


Anyway, it's just something I used to say to myself, in the early days, when I found it really HARD to quote a reasonable price. I knew other dancers were only charging $60-75 for a party in my area, but I figured I was worth as much as most other party entertainment! Taking a deep breath and thinking 'I'm worth as much as a clown' really helped me a lot!

I post my base rate. (in my area that is not very high so undercutters are even more dumb than in other areas!).

My base rate is for a 10-15 bellygram, I'm in out and done. It does not include travel, wait time, longer sets, muti sets, blah blah blah. I don't list all that on my website.

I list prices because I figure they just will not call (at least not me!) if they can not afford a belly dancer.

I like to think of it as my base rate for getting off the sofa!

Originally Posted by faaria

I like to think of it as my base rate for getting off the sofa!

Hahahahahahaha! Nice.

I tend to use the Haagen Dazs Index when evaluating my gigging options. Meaning, I will only embark on the said business venture if it is more compelling to me than a pint of designer ice cream enjoyed on a cozy couch.

Needless to say, I've been eating a lot of Dulce de Leche these days