Thread: Don't touch the dancer

Just curious, for those of you who do parties, how do you handle people who try to get 'touchy'? Either in a lecherous or not lecherous manner (some people are just 'touch-feely' types & don't mean anything by it, but many do). Specifically, those of you who do parties where they want to take pics at the end.

When I danced w/my first teacher she took me with her to do parties and such. It was always an experience, but something I never knew how to handle was at the end of course people wanted pictures with us. Which was fine, except usually the men in particular (especially if it was the Guest of Honor/Birthday Boy) would always want to put their arm around our waist for the pic. One one old fart I recall (the daughter booked us for his 75th birthday at a dive bar *shudder*) was just lecherous & pulled us both in tight for pictures. No groping, but we both got a little extra squeeze at the waist from him .p::, which I did NOT like one bit (I didn't want his arm around me to begin with) & wiggled free and made for the door as soon as the camera clicked. He passed off one of his business cards to both of us, with his personal ph# on it for us. ,r:; Granted, this was the sort of gig/folks where they probably would've been happier if we'd pulled veils between our legs & gyrated while hooting instead of actually dancing.

In the past, taking body tips I had no problems (none I wasn't able to handle anyway). At festivals with my old troupe people would approach & ask for pictures sometimes but no one ever tried to hang their arms around us or grab us up at the waist & hold on on dear life. I've often wondered (so finally thought I'd ask): How do you handle it? Politely tell/ask people when they make a move "Please don't touch me"? Put it on your website or have it in your contract? Or just accept & deal with it?

I don't like to be touched either, but I'd accept it, and deal with it.

When I posed with costumers, they'd put their arms around me, Grandma's and Children included.

Ever watch celebrities pose with fans?
Sometimes THEY put THEIR arm around the fan, to get a closer shot.
Also, most want a closer shot, so the background can be cropped out, and just have the two (or more) in the photo.

Originally Posted by gothique

I don't like to be touched either, but I'd accept it, and deal with it.

When I posed with costumers, they'd put their arms around me, Grandma's and Children included.

Ever watch celebrities pose with fans?
Sometimes THEY put THEIR arm around the fan, to get a closer shot.
Also, most want a closer shot, so the background can be cropped out, and just have the two (or more) in the photo.

Innocently is one thing (children). Old ladies I'm not so sure about, I watched one pinch a troupe-mate once & had another grab at my costume .w.: (note to self, watch the nursing home folks). Most people just want a picture & that's fine, they don't mean anything by it when they put an arm around you. It's the ones you can just *tell*/have that vibe about them - the weird, creepy, and/or lecherous "I'm God's gift to everyone, especially sexxeee bellydancers like you baybee".

I understand sometimes you do just have to grin & bear it (not everyone gives off the vibe or you get a 'sneak attack'), but by and large, do most of you?

When I'm taking pictures with men, I always say, "Let's do a belly dance pose!" and have them put their arms up in temple arms (palms touching above the head). That way, people get a funny picture and no one has to touch. For women and kids though, I don't mind.

to me, it is part of my job.an arm around the waist no big to me.i think it is fun when i leave a big red lip print on the forehead of old men.everybody laffs, the guy doesnt know it's there! i have sat on laps, etc.but most of my clintelle are ethnic, it means something else to them.like the old veiled momen, they tip you, the pat your breast....it's their way, i will not insult!
just like "body" tipping, no big, just part of the job.
now, when i am working for cowboy sixpack ?...ha ha, i have snapped tounges with zills! i usually turn it around and make the offending goof look bad to the guests.

I don't like to be touched AT ALL. By anyone. Its a thing. So this took me a long time to get over. But things like giving you an extra squeeze after taking the picture are a compliment that is meant well and you just have to keep sight of that.

The venue I take pictures at most is for my ren faire show...luckily I went with a more folkloric/historical costume for that show and its covered belly. So I've got a layer of cotton between my skin and their hands. That goes a long way....especially since it can turn into marathon picture taking sessions with patrons. They just love the cute little gypsy LOL

If I'm in a venue where I'm going to be taking tons of pictures with perfect strangers (especially if there is alcohol) I tend to put on my coverup or at least tie my veil artfully around myself to give myself that barrier. Just make sure you have a really cool coverup. I like to use my veil because then they tend not to ask me to remove it (cause of course they want the sparkly happy bellydancer in her costume in the pic). Just cross it over in front and pull the ends through your bra straps...done right it looks to be part of the costume so they just don't think to ask to see your belly (which can totally come out wrong so some people will be embarrassed to ask you).

But my best advice is to find your own way to come to terms with it. And remember that (the majority) of people aren't doing it to be lewd or rude...think of it in terms of compliments and that usually helps.

I agree with Zamora, I think it's part of the job. I put it in the category of being flirty. Of course I would never put up with someone grabbing my arse, but an arm around the waist doesn't seem all the lecherous to me.

Clearly, however, you are not comfortable with it, so I think you should find a way to either come to terms with it (as Sariradokos suggests) or avoid it all together. I like Leyla's suggestion of making them do a pose that'll keep their hands otherwise occupied. As long as you make it fun they'll be none the wiser that you really just want them to keep their grubby mitts off you!

I'm only rarely asked to take pictures with the GOH at a party, and when I do I'll put my arm around their waist but try to keep our bodies from touching. Obviously if someone were to haul me close to them we'd have contact, but unless I felt like he or she was trying to cop a feel it wouldn't bother me.

What's weird for me is when the client (99% of the time, female) wants to hug me in lieu of shaking my hand at the end of the gig. I try to be blase about it, because when it happens it seems to be a spontaneous gesture of genuine appreciation and gratitude. But I'm not a huggy person other than my family and BD peeps, so it always makes me feel a little odd.

Originally Posted by zamora

... i have snapped tounges with zills!

Now I'm filing THAT away for future use... .p::

I do agree though, its "part of the job". For me of course, its "mostly" reversed - most guys don't want to get within 10 feet of me, but I have to watch out for "feral women"! .w.:

Originally Posted by zorba

I do agree though, its "part of the job". For me of course, its "mostly" reversed - most guys don't want to get within 10 feet of me, but I have to watch out for "feral women"! .w.:

Ah . . . Zorba and his band of feral female fans!

Deborah

No one has ever tried. Wish I could share with you what I do, but I've no idea. I don't get bothered by hawkers in Egypt either. And my uncle who came to collect me from Maputo airport was harrassed on the way in re:want a taxi? But he couldn't believe that we as a pair were left alone.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

No one has ever tried. Wish I could share with you what I do, but I've no idea. I don't get bothered by hawkers in Egypt either. And my uncle who came to collect me from Maputo airport was harrassed on the way in re:want a taxi? But he couldn't believe that we as a pair were left alone.

yep me too. Nobody ever tries and I don't get pestered in Egypt either. Except this time, I bought a pink bucket style tourist hat because it was sunny and it acted like a magnet for the hawkers. I would walk down a road without the hat-no hassle, put on the hat and suddenly everybody wanted me to have a taxi or go to there brother in laws shop!!!!

I once had some creepy guy ask me if I would cuddle his friend because it was his birthday and I declined, made a joke of it and wished him happy birthday but thats all-and I think most women have had that line wether they are in bellydance gear or not!!

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

When I'm taking pictures with men, I always say, "Let's do a belly dance pose!" and have them put their arms up in temple arms (palms touching above the head). That way, people get a funny picture and no one has to touch. For women and kids though, I don't mind.

Now that is clever!

Originally Posted by zamora

to me, it is part of my job.an arm around the waist no big to me.i think it is fun when i leave a big red lip print on the forehead of old men.everybody laffs, the guy doesnt know it's there! i have sat on laps, etc.but most of my clintelle are ethnic, it means something else to them.like the old veiled momen, they tip you, the pat your breast....it's their way, i will not insult!
just like "body" tipping, no big, just part of the job.
now, when i am working for cowboy sixpack ?...ha ha, i have snapped tounges with zills! i usually turn it around and make the offending goof look bad to the guests.

So, basically, you have to accept behavior that seems like sexual harassment in order to work as a professional belly dancer? If that happened to me, I would not hesitate to speak out about it. It seems a bit sexist to think we should all just accept that dirty men will touch us inappropriately. That's not acceptable to me and I think it's part of the problem that some women just won't fight it and will let men touch them wherever they want. It's your body, you shouldn't have to accept that. You're a belly dancer, not a stripper. Even strippers don't accept that kind of behavior if it goes too far.

ita with leylafahada, posing people in fun or silly stereotypical belly dance positions for the photo can avoid the "arm around the shoulder thing." unfortunately, at least in the usa, people are preconditioned to put arms around eachother in a very unnatural pose for photos. its weird cause we don't to that if there's no camera.

so posing people, like with palms together over head "i dream of genie style" gets their hands out of range. or give them a cane to hold in the photo. keep their hands busy in other ways. ifthey get really out of control, tie them up with your veil :p

Originally Posted by smuse33

So, basically, you have to accept behavior that seems like sexual harassment in order to work as a professional belly dancer? If that happened to me, I would not hesitate to speak out about it. It seems a bit sexist to think we should all just accept that dirty men will touch us inappropriately. That's not acceptable to me and I think it's part of the problem that some women just won't fight it and will let men touch them wherever they want. It's your body, you shouldn't have to accept that. You're a belly dancer, not a stripper. Even strippers don't accept that kind of behavior if it goes too far.

You're misunderstanding sweetie.
Cory refers to cultural differences. If SHE chooses to sit on someones lap that is not someone else taking lecherous action towards her. She understands how the various cultures interpret these actions and *she* is clearly in charge. That's a far cry from accepting "sexual harassment".
Others refer to accepting hugs from male and females or putting an arm around someone for a photo. I don't consider *most* hugs of photo posing "sexual harassment". Most of the time it's a form of showing appreciation or really wanting a picture with the dancer.
People aren't talking about getting groped here. People are talking about interaction. This is a people oriented art form and an interaction based art form. In the sparkly styles, yes, flirting is part of it but one doesn't have to assume "fllirting" and appreciation hugs with sexual harassment. A professional dancer knows how to draw the line and keep things comfortable.

The nice thing about managing this while dancing is that you can flirtatiously dance away. If a man starts to get grabby I sort of do a swoopy turn out of reach of his arms and go around behind him. The audience usually finds it funny and I get my point across. Or I will take their hand(s) and sort of hold them up like were are dancing together kind of folk style. And then go dance with somebody else!

For pictures, it's harder. There's nothing impolite about discreetly but firmly removing their hand from your hip or waist if it bothers you. It's your body, and you're going to be in the photo. If someone gets offended that's their problem. No woman or man should judge you harshly for maintaining boundaries as long as you do it sweetly, discreetly, and with a smile on your face.

Originally Posted by nadira82

The nice thing about managing this while dancing is that you can flirtatiously dance away. If a man starts to get grabby I sort of do a swoopy turn out of reach of his arms and go around behind him. The audience usually finds it funny and I get my point across. Or I will take their hand(s) and sort of hold them up like were are dancing together kind of folk style. And then go dance with somebody else!

For pictures, it's harder. There's nothing impolite about discreetly but firmly removing their hand from your hip or waist if it bothers you. It's your body, and you're going to be in the photo. If someone gets offended that's their problem. No woman or man should judge you harshly for maintaining boundaries as long as you do it sweetly, discreetly, and with a smile on your face.

Thanks. That's kind of what I was thinking - as long as it's done nicely, because the few times it has happened to me it wasn't necessarily lecherous (only once or twice). But I've seen pictures of folks w/dancers before & they're posed & not touching the dancer & remembered my past experiences and thought I'd ask. I probably should've worded it as "How do you get them to do that vs. putting arms around your waist/hips for pics".

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

You're misunderstanding sweetie.
Cory refers to cultural differences. If SHE chooses to sit on someones lap that is not someone else taking lecherous action towards her. She understands how the various cultures interpret these actions and *she* is clearly in charge. That's a far cry from accepting "sexual harassment".
Others refer to accepting hugs from male and females or putting an arm around someone for a photo. I don't consider *most* hugs of photo posing "sexual harassment". Most of the time it's a form of showing appreciation or really wanting a picture with the dancer.
People aren't talking about getting groped here. People are talking about interaction. This is a people oriented art form and an interaction based art form. In the sparkly styles, yes, flirting is part of it but one doesn't have to assume "fllirting" and appreciation hugs with sexual harassment. A professional dancer knows how to draw the line and keep things comfortable.

Great distinction! Touching can be a sincere way to connect or a creepy incident, it all depends on how it's done.

I had one wife say "could I have a picture of you with my husband?" after a gig. i said "of course!" she then proceeded to tell me I could "sit on his lap if I wanted".....WHAT????? Um, no, thanks. (oh wait, I just read Cory's post...so this is acceptable in an ethnic audience? Can you explain what it means?)

I did a cute pose up next to him, instead. I don't mind an arm around the waist, but, like Leyla, I try to suggest a funny or cute pose, instead, that I think will make for a better photo all around. I also try to "insist" that the wife, girlfriend, or something are in the picture with us if a man is involved.

I put a veil wrap on for photos, if I am given the time. Then there is a barrier, albeit thin.

I take a step or two back and do a finger waggle with a "tisk tisk" face. Or spin away to another table/floor space. Once I stopped dead in my tracks and to escort a DRUNK man back to his seat! On another occasion I had a mock sword fight with a dude that would NOT sit down during a sword number!
Photos are easy I pose people! I say do this, sit here or I grab there wrist and put it were I please ..g.:

having hung out with rock stars, I have learned a thing or two about posing for photos with people. YOU be the one to put your arms around the other person. YOU decide how tightly you are going to hold the other person. YOU be the one in control.

But I agree with Samira and Cory - photos are part of the package. Posing with guests post set is almost always is called for. My experience is that most people are fairly harmless, and genuinely want to show their enjoyment of your performance. They are also feeling good and want to truly embrace the artist. If the hug gets too intimate, shall we say, then it is up to us as the dancer to step back.

And yes, we are their best friends at the moment. Is this pose unusual for taking pictures with our best friend?

I guess what this really comes down to is that these kinds of interactions are part of the job. There will be people who are disrespectful, but that happens in every job. How many nurses out there have been propositioned by either their patients or family members because of the nurse fantasies?

If you don't want to do this part of the job, the question I have to ask you is why are you accepting the type of gigs where this might be required? Why are you choosing to put yourself in that position?

{{{HUGS}}}

I think putting an arm casually around someone's shoulders or waist is kind of the "standard" way people pose for photographs in groups in America. I've never had anyone's hand linger inappropriately. Of course, when they get in that close is when they realize how sweaty I am, which probably doesn't encourage excessive lingering. ..l;, The last party I did one of the guests actually commented on it!

When I first started dancing any kind of touching was ridiculously uncomfortable for me. After a while, you tend to get used to it. It, unfortunately, just comes with the territory. However, if I notice that someone is particularly lecherous or touchy-feely, i have no problem saying, "Careful I'm all wet and sweaty" right before they grab for you. It is not the most glamorous excuse but it works 99% of the time. Unless someone is very lecherous, most tend to avoid someone else's bodily fluids. Otherwise, you just grin and bear it.

So, basically, you have to accept behavior that seems like sexual harassment in order to work as a professional belly dancer? If that happened to me, I would not hesitate to speak out about it. It seems a bit sexist to think we should all just accept that dirty men will touch us inappropriately. That's not acceptable to me and I think it's part of the problem that some women just won't fight it and will let men touch them wherever they want. It's your body, you shouldn't have to accept that. You're a belly dancer, not a stripper. Even strippers don't accept that kind of behavior if it goes too far.
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excuse me?. i work almost 95 % ethnic people.you do not know fresno ! the few times i have been harrassed or off color things were said, was by white people, ..very hateful stuff from church people.oh, and a cowboy who wanted to go home for his gun to blow the "arab dancer back home".
the old islamic ladies pat your breast for luck.an old veiled woman is not harrassment.....
i am respected .i have been many families dancer for over 30 years.
last night at hye fest, i was treated like a queen when i got to the mall.
please do not judge with out education.
actually, i am holding back as to what i really feel.but as in life off this board, i am always the bigger person.
i feel sorry for you.you must live in a tiny world.

hmmm, still no responce!

ok, history !
i moved to fresno in 1972.the ARABIAN NIGHTS had closed in 1968. HELENA VLAHOS left this valley with a list of "expected" things......if i told you about 1 of those things she did during her sulton act, ...i guess your heads would spin.but she set a bench mark.
the one thing i did combat was,"can you roll quarters, fold a dollar bill with yur stomach ? "
well, actually i can, learned from sandy snow at armens in costa mesa in the 70's.....do i do it/ no...to me it isnt dancing......so, i did not carry on all of her tricks!
what i found that carried on was a strong and deep respect for "the belly dancer".so no matter WHAT she did, that a bhuzzer might be shocked at, all seems to be taken in stride as "just part of it all " in fresno, ca !

smuse33 owes an apology...big time!

I understand where you are coming from. My southern grandpa was really big on patting us on the butt. As both children and adults. It wasn't that he was a skeezy old man trying to touch is grand kids. It was just an accepted form of showing affection.