Thread: How to approach dancers about working in an established resturant

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Why would you assume the new dancer would oust the old? Why wouldn't she just be in the rotation? That's what happens at most of the places around here - most restaurants here don't just have one or two dancers, but several.

So I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not assuming anything. I'm putting my point and opinion across, hopefully, in a way that is positive and contributory.

Also what happens in one region may not happen in another. It's all well and good that dancers can all work together, but the norm is not quite so cosy. What would happen if say, suddenly there were more dancers than slots? And some new dancers came along and the restaurant owner replaced the resident dancers with them. Say it was you. How would you feel? I understand that new dancers have to find somewhere to work, and it's great if more experienced dancers can offer them a place to cut their teeth and get some work. But mostly, there's not enough work to go round and whilst there's not much to be done if you end up getting the boot, it would be nice think that it's not down to another dancer doing the dirty, or the fact that the person for whom you've worked hard for has merely grown tired of the view.

Perhaps you have not experienced this yet, but I have. I worked the restaurant circuit for 13 years and I've had it happen to me and seen it happen over and over again to others. So, forgive me, if I sound cynical.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

So I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not assuming anything. I'm putting my point and opinion across, hopefully, in a way that is positive and contributory.

Also what happens in one region may not happen in another. It's all well and good that dancers can all work together, but the norm is not quite so cosy. What would happen if say, suddenly there were more dancers than slots? And some new dancers came along and the restaurant owner replaced the resident dancers with them. Say it was you. How would you feel? I understand that new dancers have to find somewhere to work, and it's great if more experienced dancers can offer them a place to cut their teeth and get some work. But mostly, there's not enough work to go round and whilst there's not much to be done if you end up getting the boot, it would be nice think that it's not down to another dancer doing the dirty, or the fact that the person for whom you've worked hard for has merely grown tired of the view.

Perhaps you have not experienced this yet, but I have. I worked the restaurant circuit for 13 years and I've had it happen to me and seen it happen over and over again to others. So, forgive me, if I sound cynical.

I've been working the restaurant circuit for 11 years now, solidly for 7 years. If I know anything it's that restaurant owners can cut you for any reason at any time, but that's just like with any other job. In most of the states unless you are part of a union you can be fired at will. I don't know what job security is, so perhaps that colors my view a bit.

I have seen dancers come and go, I have been fired from a gig because another dancer came along and started trouble with the dancers who danced on another night and ended up taking the gig over for herself, I have seen dancers come to my place of business and end up being hired for less than what I was being paid (this did NOT affect my pay, but I feel that it did affect the possibility of getting raises). I've seen dancers try to get a gig going only to have the owners become dissatisfied with them for whatever reason and hire other dancers.

(cont).

This is showbiz - I know my job isn't "safe" - I've been lucky in that in general I seem to be one of the dancers that has some longevity around here, but I know that it's not permanent. It may be that in a few years I'm older than the audiences want to see up onstage in that setting. I may put on weight or there may (and probably will be) younger, more supple girls coming up that the audiences want to see.

There are many reasons why I might lose my job - and I've been around enough to know that as long as my employers and the customers like me, I'll stay around. Not a moment longer.

So if another dancer asks the management about dancing in the place where I dance, it's not about ME at all. It's about her opportunities and whether the management wants new blood. It may or may not affect me, but it's not her fault, she hasn't wronged me in any way, and I have no right to be angry with her.

Now if - as was the case of the time when I was fired - I am cut because a dancer tells lies about me in order to take my job, then I have a right to be angry with her. Otherwise it's just free enterprise at work. As long as I have a product the market wants, I'll work.

Nothing has colored my opinions of other dancers in my community as strongly as their integrity, respect, and courtesy (or lack thereof) towards others. I think there is a lot of gray area here, and I've seen it handled well, and seen it handled poorly. Left a lasting impression on me in either case. Over time, I believe the impressions one's behaviors leave on the members of their community will become their karma.

Perhaps worrying about approaching dancers working in an established restaurant is getting stuck on step one. Maybe the energy could be used to learn more useful things. Maybe more profitable if you set your sights on learning the entire cycle of developing your own venue, dancing there, having lots of other dancers drop off their cards with the owner WHILE you are performing, finding out that you don't add sufficient value to retain the gig, finding out that you can figure out how to add sufficent value to retain the gig, having the owner attempt to play you off against another dancer to save money, developing a relationship with an owner and being happy there, having a venue you really like go out of business. Learning how to do that will pay off a lot better than getting stuck on trying to figure out how to rotate into someone else's gig. IMO.

Hi there, BellydanceChick! You know, what might be a good idea is to do a little bit of research and figure out if there are any other higher-end Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, Hookah Bars/Lounges (VERY popular right now!), or even Indian restaurants in your area that might be interested in having a belly dancer perform on Friday and Saturday nights. This can be done via the yellowpages or simply google. You can either call or visit the restaurants during normal daytime hours, and ask to speak to the owner or manager. I have done this twice, and I became the principal belly dancer at both of these restaurants for about a year before I had to move from the area.

Hookah Lounges are very trendy right now, and hundreds of them are popping up in cities across the US. Many of them cater to a younger (college age) audience, and are busiest from 10:00PM-1:00AM. If you are looking to get your foot in the door with professional belly dancing, hookah lounges can be a great place to start! The audiences tend to be less intimidating, and you may not have to compete for slots against seasoned professional dancers who have 10+ years more experience in the business. The more you dance professionally, the more confidence you will have when you seek out gigs in the future. In addition, your resume will look more impressive when you go to seek out the more illustrious, higher-paying restaurant gigs that tend to be held by these "house dancers."

I'm sorry that the established dancers at the restaurant you are currently trying to dance for are so intimidating! Sadly, as you venture further into the world of pro belly dancing, you will find that there is an awful lot of cattiness, gig-snatching, rudeness, backstabbing, and downright ugliness in this profession. I would encourage you, however, to go ahead and speak to the owner/manager of this restaurant, and ask him if perhaps you can audition for him/her. In the mean time, it couldn't hurt to seek out other possible restaurant gigs in order to fill your schedule.

I hope that helped! Feel free to PM me if you have any questions! Best of luck to you, Dahhling!

Am I the only person to have found that the other working dancers in my city are just as lovely and gracious as any other belly dancer that I've ever met?

One would think that all restaurant dancers are she-devils!

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Am I the only person to have found that the other working dancers in my city are just as lovely and gracious as any other belly dancer that I've ever met?

One would think that all restaurant dancers are she-devils!

I wouldn't have most of the restaurant gigs I have if it weren't for the word of mouth of other dancers...and at more than one place we've banded together when owners tried to pay us less, or left as a solid clump when things went bad.

Originally Posted by ozma

I wouldn't have most of the restaurant gigs I have if it weren't for the word of mouth of other dancers...and at more than one place we've banded together when owners tried to pay us less, or left as a solid clump when things went bad.

And this has most likely come your way because the other dancers TRUST you, and you yourself offer some integrity and honesty and loyalty. They sense, no doubt, that you would not steal a gig, nor undercut, and that when the chips are down, you will stand and fight with the rest of them. That you wouldn't go down to a restaurant where one of them was the resident dancer and offer your services whilst being totally unconcerned whether they lost the gig to you or not. Integrity... great word that.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

And this has most likely come your way because the other dancers TRUST you, and you yourself offer some integrity and honesty and loyalty. They sense, no doubt, that you would not steal a gig, nor undercut, and that when the chips are down, you will stand and fight with the rest of them. That you wouldn't go down to a restaurant where one of them was the resident dancer and offer your services whilst being totally unconcerned whether they lost the gig to you or not. Integrity... great word that.

But if I bump into a new restaurant where there seems to be dancers but I have no clue who (and I'll ask around)...I will drop in, chat with the owner or whomever, say that I am interested on being in the rotation and leave my card. I know that many dancers dance for less money than I do, so I am at no risk of undercutting...I also have enough gigs that I'm not looking to be the primary dancer.

I do tread carefully if I don't know the dancers personally but they seem to be on the same level as I am, because I know some owners WILL ditch Japanese dancers for the allure of the foreign (regardless of the foriegner's skill level) and I don't want that sort of resentment.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Am I the only person to have found that the other working dancers in my city are just as lovely and gracious as any other belly dancer that I've ever met?

One would think that all restaurant dancers are she-devils!

No you're not. Most of my gigs have come from other dancers, or from dancers who have told me about openings or new establishments.

When you prove yourself to be an asset to the community the community treats you as such. I have helped out many working dancer friends and I will be helped out by many working dancer friends. There are bad apples in the bunch everywhere but they are almost always in the minority.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

No you're not. Most of my gigs have come from other dancers, or from dancers who have told me about openings or new establishments.

I was questioning Kharis earlier in this thread, because I haven't experienced the same negative situations that she or PassionWarfare have in their areas.

Like Tanya and Tamra Henna, most of my gigs come from other dancers and I do the same for them. There's plenty of work to go around for me. Like Kharis said - it's all integrity, sounds like some places are woefully short of that!

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

Like Kharis said - it's all integrity, sounds like some places are woefully short of that!

Exactly which I think its very important to keep yourself in good standing within your community. This means respecting other dancers, and keeping your prices and ethics with in the guidelines set by the working dancers around you. It also means tempering what you say and do to other working dancers in an area.

A dancer who bucks her community and doesn't play well with others is going to find herself in some lonely situations. But then again I'm from a city I'm not sure how it would be in places where dancers are far and few between.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Am I the only person to have found that the other working dancers in my city are just as lovely and gracious as any other belly dancer that I've ever met?

One would think that all restaurant dancers are she-devils!

Oh, there are certainly plenty of professional, lovely, and gracious working belly dancers out there, (hopefully) in every city. There are several in my city that I am very, very close to, and we help each other out whenever possible, be it through costuming advice, prop dancing instruction, or passing the word about available gigs. I have helped two of my best belly dancer friends get gigs totaling $50 and $170 extra a week, respectively.

Although there is a great amount of positive, as mentioned in the posts above, there will always be "bad apples", so to speak. I was not prepared for some of the negative aspects of professional belly dancing when I began, and the more gigs I was racking up, the more apparent they became. The principal dancer at my first restaurant took me off the schedule completely for TWO months because I came to fill in for her on a day SHE asked me to come in, but decided to show up anyway and was fuming mad that I "took" her gig. There is one particular dancer in my city who is notorious for simply not showing up to gigs and not calling the restaurants to announce this, leaving them in a lurch and leaving me racing down the highway with barely any makeup on to fill in for her.

I simply wanted to pass on the experiences I have had to BellyDancerChick so that she may be aware of the negatives she might encounter, and possibly avoid certain pitfalls/drama-filled situations in the future.

I am certainly glad to hear that you have been able to avoid these situations, Miss Tamra! If only those in my city would catch on......c::

Kharis, I don't mean to be negative, and I certainly don't have any professional dance experience - but it sounds like a lot of what you're playing devil's advocate for would be issues that lay with the owner, and not the resident dancer, or the new dancer.

If a dancer professionally leaves her card, or talks to the owner - and then the owner decides that for whatever reason, they would like to have the dancer perform at the venue rather than the 'house dancer'....That's the owner's perogative. Now, if he doesn't like the new dancer, he may ask the older dancer back, but if the new dancer clicks with the clientele, so be it.

Now, if the new dancer does something to intentionally oust the resident dancer (undercutting, personal favors, etc)...Then I would say that isn't a very professional dancer, and not what folks like tamra are talking about.

If a dancer doesn't understand the concept of free market, supply, demand and competition they can't call their dancing a business. The most talented, best looking, charismatic dancer SHOULD be highest at the pecking order because that's what the 'business' of belly dance is about (dancing for personal pleasure is different). Choice (masses of it, for every good and service imaginable) drives markets. Go to as many restaurants and speak to as many owners and promote yourself in anyway possible.

If dancing is a business, then lets treat it like one, instead of over analyzing irrelevant circumstances. Whether the house dancer in the restaurant 'needs' the money is not really your problem! don't even think about that.

Even the so called 'undercutting' is a grey area in my opinion because price wars are such a natural phenomenon in the market. Just make sure what you decide to charge is worth your time and effort and you are happy with the profit you make.

Originally Posted by Aida Sajadi

If a dancer doesn't understand the concept of free market, supply, demand and competition they can't call their dancing a business.....
Even the so called 'undercutting' is a grey area in my opinion because price wars are such a natural phenomenon in the market. Just make sure what you decide to charge is worth your time and effort and you are happy with the profit you make.

The problem is with the concepts "business" and "happy with the profit you make." These things are not always congruous.
Most people (not saying you Aida, just most people that I've observed) who rationalize "as long as you're happy with it" are NOT charging actual BUSINESS sustaining rates. They are people who want a fun hobby and who want to be able to SAY they are a dance professional. That's an ego space thing. If you are a professional, be professional and charge professional rates.
Too many people who are in fact hobbyists rationalize things this way.
If a dancer wants to BE a professional- she won't base her rates on "well, they make me happy." They will be respectful of the rate RANGE in his/her area (the RANGE allowing for free market competition) and if in an area where a dancer can make a living- they will be within the range of BUSINESS SUSTAINING - including all business expenses.
"Love for dance" and "happiness" isn't going to pay anyone's bills or even for a dancer to take more classes and workshops etc (reinvest in her business)- but professional rates can.

..=-

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Am I the only person to have found that the other working dancers in my city are just as lovely and gracious as any other belly dancer that I've ever met?

One would think that all restaurant dancers are she-devils!

I would say MOST other working dancers... 99.999% are absolutely lovely and gracious. I am happy to count them among my colleagues, honored to call them peers and really glad they are my dance friends.
The other .001% however? She-devils in war paint hidden under the blessings and disguise of belly dance makeup. lol

Originally Posted by ozma

I wouldn't have most of the restaurant gigs I have if it weren't for the word of mouth of other dancers...and at more than one place we've banded together when owners tried to pay us less, or left as a solid clump when things went bad.

Yes! There has been a lot of solidarity here as well in terms of raising prices. Not all the time... but a good enough number to help our standards and treatment.

I would talk to the dancer and get to know them . and also give your promo stuff to the manager. sometimes the owners hire the girls other times it is the girls. so be friends with both.