Thread: My current frustration with the Business of Belly Dance!

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Quite a number of years ago, I made the following interesting observation: performing students actually attract (well, can get to come) the largest number of people! I guess that might lead one to the conclusion that many BDers don't really want to see other BDers belly dancing -- they show up mostly when they get to dance themselves.

To give you some hope, I have to say that when I moved away from hafla-everyone-can-dance evenings during the Intensive and towards consolidated audition-only-pro-shows, my attendance more than doubled. I believe people DO want to watch good bellydancing. And they will pay for it. But they don't want to pay a lot of money to watch students.

I see both sides of the double edged sword here. Yes, students who are performing bring attendees, but does it water-down the show? Can't you charge more when the show features the professionals?

i havent read the answers yet, but i had the EXACT same problem!!! looking for a place to do hafla"s WITH catering. where people pay what they consume. nope. all want the buffet style thing. all want a system where i pay everything up front, including a Xdrinks per person thing. and people pay directly to me. huge overhead, huge risk.

i ended up doing it once. in a realllly nice venue in brussels. beautifull moroccan restaurant party room. (if razia's reading, this, it was nice, wasnt itt!!)

that totally ripped us of and i lost a load of money... once, and no more...

oh well, lesson learned. a real pitty though. and stupid short term thinking of the venue, as i was really willing to do showcases and hafla's to do their regularly. wont set foot in the place again as it is.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Okay, I've been thinking long and hard about starting a pro-level showcase in my area. I wanted to use a private room at a restaurant. You know, folks come, pay a small cover charge, select from the menu, pay their bills; performers don't pay the cover (obviously!), split tips and even -- gasp! -- split a portion of the cover.

With this in mind, I spent all day today researching restaurants in my area and, of the restaurants that advertise they have private rooms, they all want to work everything "banquet style." Banquet style means forking over a big non-refundable deposit, pre-selecting a limited menu (I dare you to find anything beyond a tossed green salad for vegetarians), figuring a head count 10 days in advance (belly dancers make a decision before the evening of the event? you've got to be kidding!), and paying for those estimated meals in advance. Ummmm . . . this is almost as costly as running my all-day dance festival!

The main reason I wanted a private room was so that, even though the performers would be strictly professionals, I wanted to periodically have a student night. I am very hard-nosed about students not dancing in front of the GP, so a private room would be essential to be able to offer this type of forum for aspiring dancers.

I will continue my search for a friendly venue, but I see now that I might not be able to offer a student night . . . :Asad:

Deborah, the frustrated producer of fine Middle Eastern dance events

what is wrong with doing it in a dance studio?

well, let me take you around a little tour of the places where i teach

- the community sport centre: not allowed to bring in any drinks or foods.

- the school sport centre: NO heating. sometimes very dirty.

- the posh venue. well, when asked to rent it for a hafla, they are charging me 850€ for four hours plus vat, so that's like a 1000. and it's a bare hall!!! not a theatre, no lighting. plus i need to use THEIR caterer only, nt willing to make changes to the menu (very bad pub food only) and will make nothing on the food/drinks. so never mind breaking even.

eh, nope!

- renting a theatre. there are three in this town; it doesnt cost very much. it's beuatifull. we had one show there. not next year though, as this year turned out to be a strok of luck, cause someone canceled. cause there's also a TWO YEAR waiting list.

so i full understand the search for alternative venues. we are now having our hafla's in what is really a "party" venue. comes with a new problem. the music license fee people keep charging me as if i'm throwing a disco all night party there, while we really are doing a small halfa. the music fee alone cost me more last time than what we made on the door.

but i keep trying

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Well, as a matter of fact, David, your post inspired me to call the parks and rec dept of one of the cities in which I teach and inquire about renting the studio where I conduct classes; it's a unique old building that I have considered using in the past. It has it's challenges, but would probably work well. I'm expecting a call back tomorrow. Let's cross our fingers!

Deborah

Yay, I hope that works out.

Artemisia: Have you considered renting another dance studio than the locations you teach at already for haflas? I'm just throwing it out there.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

- renting a theatre. there are three in this town; it doesnt cost very much. it's beuatifull. we had one show there. not next year though, as this year turned out to be a strok of luck, cause someone canceled. cause there's also a TWO YEAR waiting list.

This has been the BEST answer for me. There are already quite a few haflas in my area, so I'm thrilled to be able to offer a different experience for both the attendees and the performers. I rent a small theater from the community college -- it's not big or posh, but it's comfortable and CHEAP and has curtains, wings, lights, everything we need. And did I mention it's CHEAP?!?! (took a lot of calling around to find a cheap one, though. Even the high school wanted over $1000)

The best thing about doing it in a theater -- no one expects food! Simplifies the planning, preparation and clean up, reduced my worries, costs and liabilities. People are willing to spend the SAME amount of money for a no-food show because they're getting comfy seats, and they can actually SEE the show.

no chance! i've tried everything. the people that have jazzdance and ballet studio's dont want what they see as "parties" there either...

student function rooms/dance halls seem to be the way to go, just left with trying to convince the music license people

Originally Posted by david

Yay, I hope that works out.

Artemisia: Have you considered renting another dance studio than the locations you teach at already for haflas? I'm just throwing it out there.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

no chance! i've tried everything. the people that have jazzdance and ballet studio's dont want what they see as "parties" there either...

student function rooms/dance halls seem to be the way to go, just left with trying to convince the music license people

interesting...

what i've als tried is dance studio's, sport studio's and function halls from the masses of high schools we have around here. it didnt bring me anything, but i've heard it work in some areas!!

We just need to start an international belly dancer compound with numerous mirrored studios and theaters with all dance styles available *evil laugh*

in outerspace

Wow - after reading all this, I feel very fortunate in my area. Haflas and some professional showcases here are almost always done in restaurants. Nobody pays cover, but each person has a min. fee of $5-$10 to help cover costs for the restaurant. People can order off the menu, order drinks, just like they would on any other given night. Nobody except the restaurant makes a profit, but on the other hand, nobody has to fork out any fees (rental or otherwise). Its good promotion for the restaurant and we have good relationships with many restaurants in town. Sometimes they even call me asking when I'm planning another show! As we often sell out, and the shows take place on the restaurant off-nights, its good business for them.

In general, finding venues for any live entertainment around here is difficult. Even live bands, theater companies etc. are having a tough time because property fees are so high and people are getting evicted (thank you 2010 Olympics) from places that have existed forever. For our upcoming event, we managed to locate a great club of decent size, and although they charge a rental fee, it includes all the sound equipment, they printed the tickets, offered us advertising, and are providing bar staff. We've already sold enough tix to cover our costs and the show is still over three weeks away.

Maybe you could try looking for something similar? Find out where your local small theater groups perform, or where the live music venues in your area are. Or find a nightclub that would be willing to rent on an off-night, or prior to their peak hours (we've done shows at nightclubs that have staff in at 7 but don't open their doors until 10 - so we get in a 3hr show, often we don't pay rent, and they make money from the bar.) Or...what about a ballroom or conference room in a local hotel?

Finally - I own a studio. I can't fit more than maybe 15-18 students and one instructor in there. No room at all for anyone else. Plus - I allow no food or beverages (except water) in the studio. I *used* to and ended up with endless amounts of cleaning and repairs. Note to all...as performers, treat your venues with RESPECT if you want to be invited back!

As a studio owner, I'll host my own parties in the studio. I know I'm going to present and in control of my event, and we don't serve alcohol.

But the idea of letting someone else use my space for a party? With the potential for food messes, spills on the dance floor, drunken idiots bopping around my expensive mirrors, and exposing my boutique to potential theft? *shudders*

Imagine renting out your home to strangers or acquaintances to hold a party and you'll know why most studios will tell you *no*.

Originally Posted by david

We just need to start an international belly dancer compound with numerous mirrored studios and theaters with all dance styles available *evil laugh*

..g.:

Originally Posted by david

We just need to start an international belly dancer compound with numerous mirrored studios and theaters with all dance styles available *evil laugh*

Well, let's just say that I have given a similar, much less grand idea some thought for the last several years.

I could do it . . . all it takes is money. ETA: money which I don't have. Hmmmm . . . I wonder if the SBA (small business administration) or similar would work with me on something like this???

Deborah

yes, i agree!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

As a studio owner, I'll host my own parties in the studio. I know I'm going to present and in control of my event, and we don't serve alcohol.

But the idea of letting someone else use my space for a party? With the potential for food messes, spills on the dance floor, drunken idiots bopping around my expensive mirrors, and exposing my boutique to potential theft? *shudders*

Imagine renting out your home to strangers or acquaintances to hold a party and you'll know why most studios will tell you *no*.

Originally Posted by elljay

Wow - after reading all this, I feel very fortunate in my area. Haflas and some professional showcases here are almost always done in restaurants. Nobody pays cover, but each person has a min. fee of $5-$10 to help cover costs for the restaurant. People can order off the menu, order drinks, just like they would on any other given night. Nobody except the restaurant makes a profit, but on the other hand, nobody has to fork out any fees (rental or otherwise). Its good promotion for the restaurant and we have good relationships with many restaurants in town. Sometimes they even call me asking when I'm planning another show! As we often sell out, and the shows take place on the restaurant off-nights, its good business for them.

Actually, there are several showcases in my area that follow this same/similar model. I like it, except I don't want it to be in the main part of the restaurant so that I can 1) charge a very low cover to help defray costs and share with the dancers and 2) offer a student night periodically.

Deborah

Lot's of THANKS to everybody for your posts! Most helpful and encouraging!

More? :Abiggrin:

Deborah

Latecomer on the indie coffee house suggestion but THIS is how you find indie coffee houses...


Yup, finding a cooperative venue is key. Very fortunately for us, we managed to associate with a restaurant who is very receptive to our schedule and ideas. They don't require that we do a buffet nor a sit down, fixed price menu, we get all of the door, they make extraordinary money on a night that they previously had slow business, and we attract amazing local and international performers (like Aziza, Salome, etc.) whom we are able to pay to perform. My co-coordinator was also able to organize several successful student nights.

Keep sending out your wishes and talk to people about it and you are bound to find something that works for all involved!

Hi Deborah -

Did you forget that you know someone personally in your area who OWNS an indie coffeehouse??? (Actually two of them...) Let me know if you want to discuss possibilities... I also may have some other good ideas to run by you... a studio you might consider, a couple of restaurants that might be able to provide what you seek...give me a call!

: ) Lilla

Originally Posted by Lilladancer

Hi Deborah -

Did you forget that you know someone personally in your area who OWNS an indie coffeehouse??? (Actually two of them...) Let me know if you want to discuss possibilities... I also may have some other good ideas to run by you... a studio you might consider, a couple of restaurants that might be able to provide what you seek...give me a call!

: ) Lilla

Yay for Lilla! I've danced at one of the coffehouses upon request by Lilla and her students, and its a very nice place with a friendly atmosphere... (not to mention jam packed!)

Originally Posted by Lilladancer

Hi Deborah -

Did you forget that you know someone personally in your area who OWNS an indie coffeehouse??? (Actually two of them...) Let me know if you want to discuss possibilities... I also may have some other good ideas to run by you... a studio you might consider, a couple of restaurants that might be able to provide what you seek...give me a call!

: ) Lilla

No. I didn't forget. :Aembarassed:

I just didn't think it was appropriate to barge up to you and say, "Hey, I wanna use KEAN COFFEE* for a showcase. What night can I have?" I mean, you use your coffee house for stuff like that!

Thanks so much for mentioning your place(s) and other possible locations; I will call you!

Deborah

* (shameless promotion for Lilla): KEAN COFFEE has two locations in Orange County, CA; one in Newport Beach and one in Costa Mesa --oops, that's locations in Newport Beach and Tustin. I was honored to be a guest performer at one of her student recitals and we all had a blast!

Originally Posted by david

Yay for Lilla! I've danced at one of the coffehouses upon request by Lilla and her students, and its a very nice place with a friendly atmosphere... (not to mention jam packed!)

Jam packed barely describes it!

You know what else? Thanks to Azhia, I checked out the website she recommended to find indie coffee houses-- talk about overwhelming! -- which led me to another site and so on until quite by accident I found a review complimentary to Lilla's place! The review was actually about another Costa Mesa coffee house, but the poster wrote something to the effect that although this other place was pretty good, "it isn't Kean Coffee." I was so jazzed!

Congrats to you and hubby on a successful venture!

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Okay, I've been thinking long and hard about starting a pro-level showcase in my area. I wanted to use a private room at a restaurant. You know, folks come, pay a small cover charge, select from the menu, pay their bills; performers don't pay the cover (obviously!), split tips and even -- gasp! -- split a portion of the cover.

The problem for the restaurant manager is, they need to know in advance about how many people will be there and buy the food and schedule wait staff, etc. That's why they want deposits, etc.

You might be able to find someone willing to work with you if you are willing to pay a deposit. Perhaps the deposit could be credited towards food & drink - in other words, for every 3$ your guests spend, the restaurant returns 1$ of your deposit.

Or try buffet restaurants - your guests could sit in the private room, then walk to the main buffet to serve themselves. I've seen this done at Chinese buffets.

Or maybe there's a restaurant with a semi-private room that you could reserve? If enough people come to fill the room so no one else can get a seat there, it's virtually private :) Again if you're reserving for a large number of people I can understand why the restaurant would request a deposit.

When I was with a previous troupe we did two restaurant shows. For one, we rented the dining room of a bed and breakfast. We sold expensive tickets for a so-so meal (even troupe members had to buy tickets for ourselves!) and barely broke even. For the second we got a restaurant on a night when it was usually closed. It was buffet, and we had to pay a deposit in advance and sell tickets. But the tickets were cheaper, the food was better, and everyone in the troupe got to eat for free.

Recently, one of my current troupemates met the owner of a local tavern. It's two sections, a dining room with a mezzanine and a bar. He let us perform in the main dining room on a Sunday afternoon, when it's usually empty. No cover charge, everybody orders off the menu and pays for themselves. We provided water and some fruit for the performers, and borrowed sound equipment.

We packed the place. Nobody expected it. They ran out of food. Service was slow because not enough help scheduled. But they made money, and let us do it again on a Friday night. This time there was plenty of food, cooks to prepare it and waitstaff to serve it. Our next event there is in the planning stages.

My other experience with this arrangement, was last fall. We reserved a private room at Hyde Park Grill (it's a chain) for my mother-in-laws birthday. Every one ordered off the menu & paid their own tab. But they do that only for parties of 21 or smaller. We actually had 23, but they were nice and did not count the littlest kids.

Originally Posted by nitewindz

The problem for the restaurant manager is, they need to know in advance about how many people will be there and buy the food and schedule wait staff, etc. That's why they want deposits, etc.

If only the most hoity-toity restaurants in the highest rent districts require reservations for all diners, then my question is, how does a manager know on any night how much food to make, how to schedule wait staff, etc?

The question is rhetorical since I know that restaurants use their own experiences to guess-timate the number of folks that will dine on any given night. Indeed, a restaurant might very well run out of some menu items if a whole big bunch of people unexpectedly rush the doors.

For this reason, having a reasonable estimate of the number of attendees is a reasonable request, which is why it's smart on the part of the producer to strongly encourage reservations. But a restaurant requiring a banquet-style big ol' deposit and head count 10 days in advance doesn't seem reasonable to me. As I mentioned upthread, getting bellydancers/fans/etc to commit to anything more than a day or two in advance is extremely difficult -- after all, something better might come up, like old McGyver reruns on TV ...

Okay, enough whining. All I know is that a little flexibility on the part of everyone involved -- producer, management, etc -- can make everybody a winner!

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Okay, enough whining. All I know is that a little flexibility on the part of everyone involved -- producer, management, etc -- can make everybody a winner!

Deborah

I'm all for everybody ending up a winner...paid performers, happy audience, profit for the restaurant have all been mentioned and are all good things...but that has to include the organizer too!

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by casbahdance

No. I didn't forget. :Aembarassed:

I just didn't think it was appropriate to barge up to you and say, "Hey, I wanna use KEAN COFFEE* for a showcase. What night can I have?" I mean, you use your coffee house for stuff like that!

Oh Deborah, I wouldn't do it for just anyone but you contribute so much to the local community- I appreciate so much all of the hard work and effort you put into Market at the Casbah, so it would be sort of a reciprocal thing in my mind. Yes I do hold my student recitals there with esteemed guest dancers to inspire the students and show them what GREAT looks like... , but I only hold three of them a year. There are lots of other nights available, and I get a lot of "when will the next bellydancing recital be?" questions from customers and staff. There are some logistics which make the coffeehouse set up a bit different from a restaurant or theatre type venue, but let's at least talk about it! I have some other ideas for you too.... : )

p.s. Thanks for the shameless plug! But actually the coffeehouse locations are Newport Beach and Tustin (Costa Mesa is where our roasting warehouse is located... we could dance there but we might get tripped up by the coffee sacks..lol)

I've organised a variety of events. Restaurants, as mentioned, are mainly looking to sell food. A lot of people attending a hafla or show may not be interested in a full meal. There is usually not a huge amount of profit made per dollar spent, so it hurts a restaurant if non eaters sit down for several hours and keep them from selling food to others. Also, not all restaurants appreciate loud music. That said, if you have a group of 15+ people and are booking in advance, you can negotiate a reduction on meals. If the overwhelming majority of attendeed will be eating, a restaurant may prove a good choice.

Bars only care about selling drinks, even if no one chooses alcohol, they profit quite a bit on soda, tea and coffee. If the bar is not selling food, it is often easy to get permission to bring snacks as they only cause people to drink more. Most people tend to have drinks anyway and dancing makes one more thirsty not less if it is a hafla. That said, not every bar suits dancing and if you are in the main area, it may take some effort to keep out strangers.

I'd recommend renting the sort of places you would get for mom's 60th birthday, a high school prom, an office party. Depending on the amount of people you expect and how willing they are to find a location, you can use a room at a bar, a simple party hall in the suburbs or a big party hall a bar or restaurant may rent out for parties. (Note that it is not a dining hall.)

A small clean room at a bar, for about 30-40 people, on a quiet night, can often be gotten for free if you have some negotiating skill and guarantee about 150 euros to be spent of drinks. Not a huge financial risk. I have organised a full dinner with take away food for 40 at such a place, followed by salsa dancing and it was inexpensive. That said, we dealed with that bar often so your mileage may vary. In any case other bars would at least work out for an evening without substantial food.

Many neighbourhoods and villages have a center where you can rent a hall with bar for parties. Sometimes they are farms or former churches or non profit places that rent out on the side. They tend not to be expensive but again it depends on how many drinks are consumed. For a place to fit 100, about. 400€ in drinks would be normal, and a cleaning fee. A kitchen is often included and there is no problem in bringing any food you like. Expect the place not to look very pretty on the outside and to be rather bare.

Your studio where you have your classes can also be a good place if it is large enough for the amount of people you want and you don't really want much eating and drinking going on. If it is purely a showcase without free dancing, this would certainly be an inexpensive solution.

This part did not fit in the previous post:

Large, beautiful locations in the center of town that fit 100+ people will generally charge on top of drinks. Compare prices and ask around to hear what others paid. When you google, pore through a dozen pages of links to find cheap things. You can get unreasonably lucky. I once got a huge room with kitchen, hallways and small coffeeroom all night long for just 50€. In the town center at that. Some people are just friendly and/or clueless about business and you won't find them advertising a lot or ranking high on search machines.

Dinner theatres with dark nights? Or at least times when they are not having shows? It does happen!

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Kimahri

I'm all for everybody ending up a winner...paid performers, happy audience, profit for the restaurant have all been mentioned and are all good things...but that has to include the organizer too!

~~Kimahri

Kimahri, I can't even begin to tell you how much I agree with that statement! :thumbs_up::thumbs_up::thumbs_up:

This is one of the reasons I want to have the showcase in a location where I can collect a small cover charge up front; split some of it with the dancers and keep some of it for expenses and -- dare I say it -- perhaps a bit of spending money! :Abiggrin:

Deborah