Thread: are 'artists' selfish ?

Overheard a conversation at the beach last night..I stayed out of it because I'm on both sides of the fence (can see both sides)

one guy was a struggling artist, his wife worked full time to pay the bills and support their two kids, she carried the insurance , etc. the 'security'

the guy is an artist (won't disclose what he does..small island) ..he brings in less than a thousand a month but puts everything he has into his business and works hard at it. it's his dream, his 'baby', he tells his wife he'll make it big (with time and faith) ..so her working and the sacrifices the kids make now will be worth it over time

we've all heard of these situations before..what are your thoughts on it?


It can be argued that this is the artists's career and means of making money, so his family should be supportive of that..and at least he's bringing in some money

It can be argued that this puts a strain on his wife who has to hold down a full time job and they live on a tight budget

It would be possible for this guy to use his training from college and go get a ..ok what's the right word..traditional? 9 to 5 job or something that is consistent pay and a predictable paycheck. If he worked that job he could share the financial burden with his wife but it would leave less time for his art.

(of course hearing this hit home ..this is not like our situation since my income is not far off from TY'S income so our financial situation is different and ..well we don't fight over money, ever. )

Anyways I understand both sides..an artist life is full of sacrifices and tight budgets and hard work that may or may not pay off. But being married and having kids ..should the artist focus more on the family unit and have at least a part time job that pays well and do art on the side?

how about dancers, how do you balance your dance life and family life?
Do you live solely on the income provided by dance?
If it came to push and shove to support yourself or kids would you go back to a traditional type job or would you continue to work hard to pursue art as business?

Well we all know for sure artists are not lazy..they often put in more hours than others with a traditional job. But if it's not working out for the family, should they cut back on art and pitch in more?

I married a musician 13 years ago and I am the bread winner for our household. We chose to not have children so my husband wouldn't need to feel the pressure of having the traditional 9-5 job to make ends meet and I wouldn't go insane trying to work full time, look after kids and have a life of my own (dance). ..g.:

Too often when the struggling artist becomes successful, they become so enamored of their new successful lifestyle and glittery friends that they leave the boring ordinary person who sacrificed everything to get them to that level. It happens so often that it's a cliche. I'd love to be supportive of an artistic spouse, but he'd have to be making sacrifices for his dreams, too, and meeting me halfway in the present.

If I made enough money, I'd be THRILLED to support someone else *if* that person would also take care of the house and do their share of the childcare. But if I didn't make good money, being expected to support someone who works more than full time to bring in a part time income would be problematic, especially if that person wasn't taking on the majority of the housework either.

What a lot of adults with responsibilities have to do is work at their art/dream/business part time while also working a part time job, until the art/dream/business is strong enough. OR -- what I did -- work a few years at a hated j.o.b. and save up enough money to cover your own expenses for the first 6 months while you build the business, knowing that if it won't support you by then it's over.

I wouldn't expect someone else to be making all the sacrifices and subsidize my dreams. I'd expect to work, save, struggle, have two jobs for a while, etc. (though I'd expect some understanding and practical and emotional support).

Originally Posted by jesennia

Well we all know for sure artists are not lazy..they often put in more hours than others with a traditional job. But if it's not working out for the family, should they cut back on art and pitch in more?

I am sexist about it...I'm more OK with a woman throwing over a traditional job for creative/artistic work than a man, whether or not there are kids in the picture. I would want my artsy husband/boyfriend to work a normal job part-time or at least seasonally, and have set financial and house-keeping duties, and the understanding that eventually it might be My Turn and he'd better !#$ support me then! As for myself, I would much rather work a simple part or full time job than be responsible for full-time homemaking.

I've heard it said that creative people are always creative, and that if you wait until you have "time" to be an artist, you will never follow through even when you have the time. I think this is mostly true.

I took a 75% pay cut two years ago to teach and perform BD full time. I was making a fantastic salary before, and I can tell you that now we pretty much just makes ends meet with his job and the little bit I make teaching/performing.

However, I was miserable at my old job, and trying to balance the level of dancing I wanted to do with a day job and family nearly tore our marriage apart. Because I am pushing 40, I felt that there was a limited number of years that I would be able to physically teach and perform at the level I wanted to, so if I was ever going to do it, the time was right then and there. We decided that I would take the chance and see what happened, and I can honestly say while it's a bit scary at times, we are a zillion times happier than how things were before.

When I quit I also started doing the great majority of the housework, because I work way less than a 40 hour week, and am home for a lot of my work hours (like when I'm doing clerical/marketing stuff). It seems very fair to me, and without the stress of trying to be superwoman, it doesn't even bother me much at all.

Depends highly in the situation.

The money making partner should not be running him/herself ragged to support the one who isn't. I'm talking about working more than 40 hour weeks. That's ridiculous.

When you're talking poor, how poor are you talking? If you're going into poverty or debt, I think it's time the artist gets a job that pays. I'm sorry, but when you choose to have a family, you have to be responsible for them. It sucks that things don't work out how you please, but that's life. People have realize that just because you have a dream doesn't mean you can throw out your responsibilities to other people, like your kids or spouse.

The artist who doesn't work should also do a lot of the upkeep of the house and if there are children, help with them. I've seen some couples who have one person earning all the cash while the partner won't even drive once a week to the grocery store and purchase groceries. The bread winner in one particular situation does almost everything. There has to be some give and take, you know? To me, pursuing your dream is fine, but if you're involving someone else to support you or if you have a family, you better make sure you're making it worth their while.

I think there also needs to be some discussion on what happens when the other partner doesn't make it big. How many years are you honestly willing to be the bread winner? What will happen if the breadwinner can't work or loses the job?

This is a topic that's hit close to home for me, so sorry for the longish response. I've seen a few situations where the burden is placed very heavily on the one with a paying job while the other person works very hard on his/her thing but doesn't help out in other parts of life and in some situations, doesn't realize how much of a strain it's putting on the family to pursue this dream. To me, that's unbelievably selfish. I think if you're well-organized, helpful in other ways like Laura, and realistic, I think it can be fine.

As for myself, I don't want kids and I prefer to play it a lot safer with my finances. I don't believe I ever would be able to make enough money as a dancer to be feel financially secure. I don't necessarily need a six figure salary, but I imagine that a full-time pro dancer's salary, unless you're a big name, is quite low.

I think the epitome of the "selfish artist" is Paul Gauguin. He left his wife and kids to marry a child in Tahiti! Yuck!

Anyway, I think there needs to me some compromise. Sure, I'd love to do nothing but play with clay and paint, but I know that won't pay the bills. When I was in college I knew I needed a career, so I took the steps to make sure I was prepared to support myself and contribute to society. No, teaching art isn't my dream job, but it is close enough for now. It’s a compromise.

In reference to the original post, I knew a woman who told me that, “it’s tough being a single mom when you’re married.”

Sometimes. It really depends on the person IMO. I've met "artists" who wouldn't get off their arse to do a damn thing, and I've met artists who work very hard and don't expect everyone else (ie their partners) to subsidise them. Um, stereotypically, I've found the male kind to be more likely to be the former - but not always.

Examples. I knew a girl years ago who liked art and had some talent at it. She liked to use it commercially, ie producing hand-painted t-shirts etc, and she had a business with another artist doing just that. Her husband worked. She didn't contribute much at all to the household or the marriage, expected him to, and was upset when he left. She fortunately got a house out of the deal, though the business never went anywhere. She's a lazy person with entitlement issues. But she was also, at that time, not diagnosed as bipolar, which revelation explained a lot.

Her business partner is not trained in art but highly talented. This woman does what she does. She's a "flitter" - she becomes bored in situations and moves to new homes, new towns, new jobs. Sometimes she paints for money, sometimes not. BUT, this chick works. She was, last I heard, a barista. She bought her own home, I think with a little parental help, and she pays her own way. So her art is what she does and she works to support herself.

I shared a house with an artist in London, who I *think* had some small degree of help from her well-to-do family, but she was an incredibly hard worker. During part of the year she just painted and lived on a small stipend. Then in summer she would take full time work as a curator - and go to her studio after that. Summertime K, you never saw her before 10pm. AND she was the only person who did housework and gardening. She would be one of the most hardworking people I've ever met. I believe she teaches art now as well. BUT she did not have a partner or family and I would be surprised if she does now or ever will. I think she is genuinely "wedded to her art".

I think there is a balance. I'm blessed enough to make a living doing my own art. I'm a voice over artist/voice actor. However, I hold a part-time job as a staff writer for a company, and take writing assignments when needed because voice overs don't always bring in the money like it should. I held a regular job for a long time while I worked at this, I also held some crappy jobs while I worked at it. You have to sacrifice other things to pursue your art, and be responsible about it. Hey, I had to live.

My boyfriend is similar, but I think he's lost his balance. He's a Nurse by trade, and a party DJ for the love of music. He's been a DJ for 13 years, and he travels to places to play a lot. Lately he's been so focused on his work I think he's forgotten about the music.

It's a hard balance to understand, and a hard balance to keep all the time. But, when you think with the mind of an artist and have a love for something...and at the same time you know how to be responsible, you can do it.

Originally Posted by Karnak

“it’s tough being a single mom when you’re married.”

Amen. Been there, done that, watched a lot of other women do it too.

I have the full time day job and the teaching and performing. I could never just say "OK honey I am not going to work the day job, want to pursue my art" Never going to happen!
On the other hand because I've choosen to pursue it in the evening my husband (bless his lovely soul!) does much of the driving teenagers around to their stuff in the evenings. He also takes me to every gig and is always present and helpful with all things belly dance. So I guess he does go above and beyond for my art form even if I still have a day job.
I guess if everyone in the situation is happy then it works right? (in my husbans case he loves the company of women so helping out at events is no big deal to him and he is a great father so driving our girls around is just part of the job to him).
I do feel very selfish now and again when I need to teach or perform when I could be home with the family for sure!

Jesennia, I just realized you have over 10,000 posts and a new tagline!

I think that this issue needs to be discussed by couples on a case by case basis and that there is no right way or wrong way. I think that as long as the couples talk about it and are able to compromise, people should be able to do what they love...either for pay or part time depending on circumstances.

This is actually an ongoing argument that I have with certain members of my family. They insist that I'm am completely selfish because I'm self employed.

I used to make $75k plus a year. Then I got married, had a baby, and my ex husband wanted me to stay home...so I did. Then my marriage fell apart and I wound up a single parent and I had to go back into the work force. I tried the 9 to 5 thing and I was beyond miserable...and then I got laid off. So I decided to follow my heart (which I should have done in the first place) and become a full time professional dancer/instructor and I haven't looked back since.

Some members of my family insist that being self employed is totally selfish and detrimental to my son. They don't even designate it as being an artist...its just flat out being self employed that they have a problem with. And yes...part of it is because I'm female. They have no problem with any of the male entrepreneurs in the family. I've finally reached a place where I can ignore them, but it makes for some fun times to be given so much crap about it. I sometimes wonder if its simply a jealousy issue...I'm always doing cool stuff, I look at least 5 years younger than I actually am (which I directly contribute to the fact that my life is so much damned fun!), and I get to hang out with my kid whenever I feel like it (within reason obviously).

Like everyone says, its all about balance. You gotta be real.

But I also believe its about choice. I just recently turned down a job offer in another country that would have totally given me my old life back ($$, international travel, full time nanny, whole nine yards). It was a hard decision, but in the end it was a simple one. I LOVE my life. I spend at least 6 hours, usually more, with my so every day. If I decide that I want to go on a field trip with him, I do it. If I decide to go volunteer at his school, I do it. I spend more quality time with my child now that I'm self employed than I ever did working for anyone else. The money part can suck. Money is always tight. I'm honestly pretty amazed that I manage to support myself and my son and live in a nice neighborhood and have the fun we do on $20k a year. I impress myself with my $$ skills all the time. But for me the money part is a trade: I traded a pay check and benefits for the priveledge of living my life the way that I truly want to.

I think that I'm doing my son a service. He's going to see that he has a strong and smart mommy who took a passion and made it into something that supported us. He's going to see that you don't have to be miserable to make a living. He's going to see firsthand that you don't have to settle for second best, that hard work can get you everywhere, and that dreams aren't just dreams: they are possible.

So I choose to be "selfish". And I hope that my son grows up to be just as "selfish" one day.

In a word "Yes". Being an artist means you're doing what YOU want the way YOU want. Most true artists that I know manage to be good enough to make a living and support themselves. But I know the "artistic temperment" type, that "think" they are artists with no true skills or qualifications. Both types can be drains on their families. If your married to an "artist" especially a musician artist you probably have little family time. Every holiday or special occasion they are booked for a party or if they aren't booked cancel plans for a last minute booking. Their "art" supersedes family, plans, just everything.

I've had belly dancer girlfriends who are smart, intelligent and savvy divorce "artist" boyfriends, whether they be painter, musician or poet because the man refused to take responsibility for the relationship, marriage, house and bills. He wanted to be "free" to pursue his art.

I think people should be free to pursue their dreams. But, unless you possess a special rare talent like Michael Jackson, Elvis, Abdel Halim, etc. you should be realistic about what you expect from others and what you can do yourself. Real superstars come along maybe once in 100 years. Everyone else is average or if your really good, above average. In a recent corporate audit they said that if you rate as average, you're better that then so-called "average" worker. An expectional employee is rare. Most people just do what the job requires. How many of you truly know someone who is exceptionally gifted??? How many of you know someone talented but who just hasn't found the way?

I believe in following your dreams. I did so myself in my early 20's as a I travelled and toured as a pro dancer. At the same time I realized eventually, I had to support myself and look out for my future. Don't make your friends and family suffer for unrealistic dreams. I've seen so many relationships, my own included, fall apart because one person tninks that his art supercedes all else, including the relationship. (I was married to a muscian, what else?) And how many times does that trade off actually pay off in the real world???

Rarely.

Originally Posted by safiradokos

*everything*

word.

This is my life in a nutshell. I also live on about 20,000 - less some years, inching toward going over finally, i hope. I have two kids in braces, one in college, and manage to take an international trip every year, sometimes even with one of the kids. How do I do it? I don't know!!! I swear I live on karma, mostly.

We're selfish because.. We live simply? Our kids don't have designer everything? As they grow into teenagers and young adults they'll have to be self-sufficient, buy their own cars, etc.? Those are my values. I wouldn't want to raise my kids any other way.

We're selfish because... we work evenings? I was available to pick my son up from school, hear about his day while it's still fresh, help him with homework, and have supper together -- all the parts of the day many working moms miss. I'm gone for that portion of the evening that's filled with TV and video games in many homes, and back in time to watch a movie with him and make sure he goes to bed on time. I don't miss any more weekday hours with him than a typical working mom -- about 2 hours most days, occasionally 3, between school's end and bedtime.

And when he was sick I was there. And when he started having some teenager issues and didn't make the transition to a big public high school very well, I was able to pull him out and home school him for a semester.

No one ever laid on their death bed and said 'oh, I should have made more money.' I haven't even met anyone who's said 'my parents really screwed up my psyche by not having high-power careers.'

I don't get it.

amen to simple life. Am glad that my older boy doesn't care about designer things (he does have a pretty decent drum set) and my toddler of course is content with aloha T's and crocs. My wardrobe is a bikini and sarong 80% of the week. We eat cheap but healthy and surfing is free.

I've enjoyed being able to work with Z being here but it's also tough that I am with him and he doesn't understand when mommy is working so I can't play with him all the time. I think it's easier on him when he has daycare time with other kids, and mommy can crank out work alone (and i NEED the alone time) and then we have our time together that is completely focused on him. Nothing is worse than having him sad as I'm doing one more email or one more call or ironing one more veil. He doesn't understand yet.

Financially..over the past ?? years I have grossed over six figures in sales for a few years. In retrospect I wish i had put some of that money away instead of spending it on advertising or more product line, etc. I wish i had been more conservative.

I don't want to put my kids thru paycheck to paycheck type of living. When I was young we were always told 'we don't have the money' and I grew up thinking we didn't have the money ..my bio dad never said things like that, he had a pretty solid career as a Colonel in the army and never let on his financial status to us kids and we always felt secure. It was a HUGE emotional deal for me when he died when i was 19..technically I was already out on my own going to school and working and supporting myself but having dad gone meant a lot of security gone. I've never relied on my parents to help me thru school (they did help with childcare when i was a single mom in nursing school) but still..having that security gone was a big motivator for me to get a decent paying career FAST

Also want the same or better opportunities for my kids. Not to spoil them by any means but to help them out when they need it..but teach them to be financially responsible and work hard at it. Not just take hand outs.

Not that any of this can't be done on an artist salary..but I would like to sleep at night, at least for a while, knowing the paycheck is going to be the same, the insurance is there, the 401 and other perks of being employed are there, etc. And I paid for a nursing education, worked really hard for it and made a lot of sacrifices back then to do it..should put it to use again

Sometimes I think "selfish" is confused with "self-absorbed." Selfish is not caring about the other person, while self-absorbed is more about what is going on in someone's little universe. These people are not necessarily thoughtless on purpose while selfish people are.

It is really hard to be creative when you are so bogged down by the responsibilities of life, yet what would life be without beautiful art?

Was he an unemployed artist when he and his wife met? If so, IMO then she gets what she gets for marrying and having a child with an unemployed artist. She knew the deal when she got involved.... However, if he was employed and making some money when they met, and then quit his job and expected her to support him... then yeah what he is doing is selfish and he needs to get his rear off the couch and get a real job.

IMO, once a couple has a child/children than chasing a dream which is, unfortunatley, not leading anywhere, should be put on hold until a later time when it becomes more attainable (financially). It is not fair to raise children in poverty IF there is another option.

Now if said artist has NO other skills to fall back on, well, GOD help that family and children.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I took a 75% pay cut two years ago to teach and perform BD full time. I was making a fantastic salary before, and I can tell you that now we pretty much just makes ends meet with his job and the little bit I make teaching/performing.

However, I was miserable at my old job, and trying to balance the level of dancing I wanted to do with a day job and family nearly tore our marriage apart. Because I am pushing 40, I felt that there was a limited number of years that I would be able to physically teach and perform at the level I wanted to, so if I was ever going to do it, the time was right then and there. We decided that I would take the chance and see what happened, and I can honestly say while it's a bit scary at times, we are a zillion times happier than how things were before.
.

You just wrote my own story, 75% cut in income and all! I think there is more to family wellbeing than just money - the emotional wellbeing counts for just as much, and as you've said, this balance is better for you because it has been positive for your overall happiness. Two stressed adults does not a happy household make. I feel very strongly that I never, ever want to go back to corporate work, or even working for someone else full-time.

I'm sure every couple measures and balances contributions differently, whether that be contributing finance, housework, child rearing or creating a happy, homely environment. I guess the balance is off when the finances won't stretch far enough, or one person feels like they're doing all of the work all of the time.

I do think a loving couple should try and support each other in their dreams, even the ones that are tough on the finances - whether that be to work as an artist or sail around the world. But there has to be give and take, and that can happen over a long time period. So I think it's fair to agree, for eg, to let someone be a struggling artist for xx years, on the understanding that in the future it'll be their turn to be the breadwinner for a while. Especially if the other partner has dreams that they want time to pursue. I couldn't accept a partner who remained a struggling artist forever. OK, so be an artist, but make money from it or combine it with paying work!

The book "Artist's Way" by Julie(?) Cameron talks alot about the concept of the "selfish" artist.

It is not artistry that makes a person selfish, and pursuit of a dream is not inherently selfish, either. It is the manner in which we choose to pursue our dreams that can be viewed as selfish.

Each person and situation is unique.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

The book "Artist's Way" by Julie(?) Cameron talks alot about the concept of the "selfish" artist.

It is not artistry that makes a person selfish, and pursuit of a dream is not inherently selfish, either. It is the manner in which we choose to pursue our dreams that can be viewed as selfish.

Each person and situation is unique.

You stated what was in my head, but didn't come out in typing.
PERFECT!!!!

What an interesting post!

The solution I'm happiest with is taking turns; one partner becomes the major breadwinner for an agreed-on period of time while the other gets to pursue their personal stuff, then we trade.

Right now I'm a full-time student, and while I contribute as much as I can out of my stipend (I pay for the groceries and sink money into keeping the utilities lower for Habibi, with things like ceiling fans, etc.) and by doing the housework, cooking, and gardening. When I graduate and can make a good living with my Arabic studies (Wow, something that can make good money AND contribute to my dance!) he gets to go back to school and get his PhD if he decides to.

I think that any scenario can be a drag after a while, and I've heard of a lot of couples that alternate responsibilities from as little as one week on/one week off to as much as "after the kids grow up" or "when I get my M.A."

Good thread this - gonna wait til the kids are in bed til I read through properly (arty hubby is out earning money cos luckily our art is commercial).

I'm always confused by these sorts of conversations.... there's nothing inherently selfish about being an artist (of whatever sort).

Yes, there are obsessive, driven, "anything for my art" types who may neglect other aspects of life. But there are also plenty of folks in other careers who make unbalanced choices that can be labeled "selfish" - starting with corporate types with six figure incomes who obsessively work 80 hour weeks, travel constantly, AND are deeply in debt.

And there's the opposite argument.. that a spouse who doesn't support the art and business of their partner is the selfish one.

Honestly, I think it's usually less about selfishness, than about partners who have mismatched expectations and priorities.

To begin with i do agree with SashaK. corporate types who work 80 hours a week are selfish in an entirely different way. They leave all things domestic to the spouse and use their 80 hours as an excuse for shying out of many things.

Reading through this thread has hit many issues close to home. I'm the artist in the family who is pursuing a dream while my great (really fantastic, amen) husband is out working a job that he hates. He's an artist too but has never made any money with it. Technically, he would love to pursue it but he knows how much more work it would be than his regular job. So he leaves the entrepreneur stuff to me. Luckily, I have worked as a belly dancer long enough to make a decent salary working three or four days a week in the evenings. While my husband was unemployed for five months, I was the one who supported the family. (Unfortunately, the dishes and laundry were still my responsibility during this time.) There are days when I feel really guilty that i have a job that i love and am good at while my poor husband has to work a job he hates. But he has told me several times that he likes the security and that he would never be able to do what i do. Is it selfish that i don't have a traditional job? Not really. The weeks when there is no work are made up for on the weeks when i pull in twice as much as he does.

My mother in law, however, thinks i am ridiculous and silly to think of belly dance as real work. She has often told me to get any job, work in a factory, be a secretary, anything to pull in a steady salary. And each time we talk about this, we get into a pretty sizable argument.

How is being a secretary a realer job than being a belly dancer? A lot of times, an artist's job is not taken as seriously as a "regular" job and is rather seen as a glorified hobby.

Besides that, i agree with the idea that being a belly dancer is a great profession for raising a kid. you get to spend a lot of quality time with your child, time that you would miss if you were working at a nine to fiver. My husband works days and i obviously work mostly evenings and nights so either way, i almost never have to pay for child care. Besides, if there is an important event in my child's life, i have the power to turn down a job simply because i am self-employed and it is my business.

Also, it is a great example to children to show them that real life doesn't always get in the way of pursuing your dreams and the goals you set out for yourself.

The only downside to being an artist, especially a performing artist is when you are injured or otherwise unable to work. Then, it becomes harder for everyone, financially.

In response to the original post, I would have to say that if the entire burden of earning, housework, childcare falls completely on one spouse, then it is entirely selfish. If one is a starving artist, then there has to be some kind of teamwork. Otherwise, the artist is an A$$.