Thread: Clueless

Hi everyone,

I was just thinking about something that happened to me quite some time ago, and thought I'd mention it. This was long before I was informed about the usual procedure for procuring restaurant work.

A few years back I called up a restaurant to ask what the audition process for dancers was. The owner told me that I had to come in and audition for him; he set up a time, and down I went.

The restaurant was open, and the owner had me dance (it was a slow night). When I finished my piece he asked 'is that all?' and encouraged me to dance more. I was not paid, though I was offered a drink/meal which I refused at the time, not realizing that I was supposed to have been paid for performing. I was tipped $1, as I recall. His daughter watched me dance and told me I was very good, then they said they would call me.

So after a few phone calls I finally found out that there was a scheduling dancer at this restaurant, who I then called up. She was (understandably now, but at the time I had no idea why) quite upset that I had danced there without her knowledge. I tried to explain several times that I had been told it was the audition process at that particular restaurant, but she wasn't having any of it, and her tone was that of someone who believed I was trying to do something underhanded.

A few other restaurants later, I realized that the owners could be pretty sketchy. What's sad is that I really had no idea that I'd done something wrong, and did have the best of intentions.

My thought was - is it possible that other dancers/those new in town/those just looking to get started aren't trying to step on anyone's toes, but are simply misinformed, as I was all that time ago? Are we doing ourselves a disservice by always expecting the worst?

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

My thought was - is it possible that other dancers/those new in town/those just looking to get started aren't trying to step on anyone's toes, but are simply misinformed, as I was all that time ago? Are we doing ourselves a disservice by always expecting the worst?

Yes, I think it absolutely is possible. That's why I think it's so sad that we're constantly tarring and feathering The Undercutters and others here on Bhuz based on our speculation that we're all getting screwed. I'm NOT saying there aren't Suzy Nippletassels out there who really are just dancing for their supper because they want the attention, but we sure are quick to jump to conclusions without ever actually talking to these other dancers. So then, dancers who may have intially simply been clueless or misguided get the impression that we're just mean ol' b****es, so why should they listen to us in the first place?

i have no problem with this happening once. but if this dancer makes a habit out of it, which i have seen happen, even after they have been told otherwise, then it becomes a very serious issue of undercutting.

everybody had to start somewhere and didn't know anything. it's forgivable. a pattern is not.

Originally Posted by Zobeida

everybody had to start somewhere and didn't know anything. it's forgivable. a pattern is not.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by Zobeida

i have no problem with this happening once. but if this dancer makes a habit out of it, which i have seen happen, even after they have been told otherwise, then it becomes a very serious issue of undercutting.

everybody had to start somewhere and didn't know anything. it's forgivable. a pattern is not.

Yes, that's definitely the other side of it.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't always think it is the dancer's fault. I think we need more seasoned dancers to play a mentoring role with their students. High expectations should be set and discussed from the get go. People get in trouble when they try to do things on their own without talking to someone they trust about it first.

Hypothetical:

Student wants to go pro after two years. Is probably not ready to, but is willing to try. Now if she had a mentor she could go to this person and talk about it. Mentor could offer several options 1. Come with me to my shows and see how its done. 2. I've over booked and I need someone to cover a show, would you like to do it for me.

Now, imagine if dancer or teacher did not mentor and took the "absolutely not" or "go at it alone" or "you're competition" approach. It would cause student dancer to feel attacked and alone. Student dancer would probably go out on her own to prove herself and end up doing something clueless to begin with.

I know a lot of bhuzzers, take a "business is business" point of view and fully believe that we are all not one big happy family. But when it comes to students or younger women in your community, helping them along with a little encouragement and inspiration can go a long way. Sure there are suzy nipple tassels's out there, but I believe their numbers would be fewer if more people mentored.
--End rant--

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Are we doing ourselves a disservice by always expecting the worst?

I've been thinking about that a lot, lately, and as much as I sometimes want to go smack the undercutters in town, the one thing I can say for them is that they're obviously doing what they do because they love to do it.

I'm young, and since gigs have gone bone dry in this town, I really don't have clout in the community. But I swear that, when I'm a cranky old lady dancer with a ton of war stories, I'm going to invite every single undercutter in my area out for lunch and "re-education" in a nice way.

But I think that bellydancers get the short end of the stick so much that a lot of us (or I do, and people I know, anyway) just tend to expect the worst no matter what. If it's a public event, we go into it expecting to have kids rub ice cream on our skirts, we expect the GP not to "get" what we do, so we dumb it down, we expect the high school garage band to take precedence so we dance on the gravel instead of the stage, etc.

I've been in conversations about restaurant work where we ultimately decide not to approach a new venue because they're "too snooty" and "wouldn't want us" even though we've never spoken to them or even gone out to eat there to scope things out! Why so defeatest?

We have got to be more positive, and that goes for me more than anybody else I know.

My latest strategy for combatting undercutting would be writing a piece for the local paper about the problem as a human-interest + economy aspect of it, with a few interview snippets. Something like, "in Economic Crisis, Bellydancers Are the Lowest Paid Artists in the Entertainment Industry". This would ostensibly explain to the GP why a higher rate is worth it and what goes on behind the "bargains" they think they're getting. However, I know that whenever anybody I know sees a news or a magazine article remotely bellydance related, they cut it out and save it for me, so I imagine it would be something passed around to all the other dancers in town. Most undercutting articles, simply because of where they're available, are preaching to the choir. I think I could write something interesting and push it out for a bit more exposure.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I don't always think it is the dancer's fault. I think we need more seasoned dancers to play a mentoring role with their students.

I think this hits it pretty close to the mark. I think what I'm saying is that how is anyone supposed to know if no one tells them? Yes, if it's a pattern, of course that's a problem, but nobody told me back then (and the owner of that restaurant sure wasn't going to). The only way I even found out was via the online forums I began to participate in.

Sometimes I feel like we think everyone should just automatically know the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Sure there are suzy nipple tassels's out there, but I believe their numbers would be fewer if more people mentored.
--End rant--

This is something I hugely agree with.

I'm very fortunate that I had two great instructors as a baby-dancer who took the time to show me the ropes. Because of them, I learned everything from appropriate costuming to fielding difficult clients with tact to why it's important to charge the going rates.

Though it's not always easy to feel warm and fuzzy toward those who continually undercut, it's equally frustrating that the standards aren't always clearly communicated.

I'm not a teacher, so I'm technically in no position to be a mentor to anybody unless they solicit my help. In this case, I wonder how all members of a community (not just teachers) can get good information out there and help raise the standard...

Originally Posted by Zobeida

everybody had to start somewhere and didn't know anything. it's forgivable. a pattern is not.

Agreed. Also agree that mentoring (or lack thereof) is a big part of this issue.

The list of reasons for why mentoring doesn't happen more often is nearly endless. We're undervalued outside of our own community (little financial incentive to turn out better dancers), and too competitive within. There is no universal agreement on what constitutes training to be a good teacher, and as a result, there is a lot of finger pointing at bad teachers. I suspect by the time a lot of teachers reach a level where they could mentor, they're either scrambling to bask in the last few rays of light before sundown, or they've pushed their bodies to the point where they simply can't dance any longer and it isn't cost effective to mentor students the way a 70-year-old Russian ballerina could. (How many students would pay enough to cover studio rent to study with a belly dancer who sat on a stool and banged a cane on the ground? How many teachers have the reputation that they could attract students to work under those conditions? Not many of either.) The bottom line is that for all our talk of sisterhood and the need for standards, there really isn't a groundswell of self respect. Generally speaking, there are far too many dancers who turned pro too soon, and too many teachers who shouldn't be teaching. Unless we want to take the initiative to police ourselves, we're never going to eliminate the problem of cluelessness and low quality (dancers and teachers).

Andalee, you forgot 3 on your list. "I'm spending more money than I make as a belly dancer. I'm underbooked, and there are four other competent dancers and eight incompetent ones competing for the few jobs I'm able to find. I wish I could get ten times as many gigs as I do, because I prefer performing to teaching. I like you as a person, and wish you the best, but frankly, I secretly hope you'll drop the idea of going pro."

Imagine that the teacher is a really sincere, decent person, and gave a student the advice not to go pro out of an honest assessment of that dancer's abilities, but the student refuses to listen and strikes out on her own anyway. The student may feel attacked and alone, because she is. She may fancy that the other dancers are out to get her, but the reality is that she has overestimated her talent and skill level, and while she thinks they are jealous of her, they actually just want her to get a clue and improve before she goes on the pro circuit. Yes, she's taking business away from them and other dancers in town are angry, but not because she's so good--it's because she's dragging the overall quality of the market down and causing potential customers to spend their party dollars elsewhere.

I wish there were more teachers qualified to mentor, and more teachers offering instruction beyond the weekly introductory classes. I wish there were more dancers who were willing to put their egos aside for the good of the larger dance community. I wish people were kinder and more helpful in general.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I'm not a teacher, so I'm technically in no position to be a mentor to anybody unless they solicit my help.

Same here! I'd even feel better about trying if I had a regular restaurant gig of my own or if I were a few years older.

Have you thought of attempting to start up a professional association in your area and sending the culprits very nice invitations to come to the initial meeting? You could then openly discuss pricing issues (or other instances of bad behavior like going without coverups) without pointing figures in a "Let's protect each other and educate our students," way instead of a "Hey you, knock it off," kind of way.

Of course! I truly believe that most people never do things out of malice, but ignorance. It VERY rarely that you encounter a person who does wrong TRULY because they want to. Most people just need to be educated.

Great topic, something I've been thinking about a lot lately....So, besides having a mentor to assist you along; how would you suggest a dancer go out to look for restaurant jobs? What type of research can you do to assure that you aren't stepping on another dancer toes? I hear this happens often, mainly b/c resturant owners aren't always truthful, but a girl has to start somewhere. Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

Great topic, something I've been thinking about a lot lately....So, besides having a mentor to assist you along; how would you suggest a dancer go out to look for restaurant jobs? What type of research can you do to assure that you aren't stepping on another dancer toes? I hear this happens often, mainly b/c resturant owners aren't always truthful, but a girl has to start somewhere. Any thoughts?

Ask several other dancers in your community what they charge. They'll be happy to see that you're committed to upholding a good standard.

Whatever you do, DO NOT ask restaurant owners .w.:

This conversation exists as well as countless other all over the web, are the clueless never looking at them? They look at a higher price another dancer charges and don't think, "man I want to make that for a gig", or do they think "wow if I charge 1/3 of that that would be good"?

Just asking these questions because I'd like to understand? There are many many resources out there, they missed them all? I don't mean to sound harsh but really did they miss or just ignore? Not one honest mistake but a pattern of these "mistakes"?

I feel like mentoring my own students is my job if they want it that is, but mentoring and educating others is not.

If a store opens on the same block as another similar store, is it the 1st stores' job to go down the street and give a good talking to the other store and mentor them? I'm just asking because it seems the same thing but in our business that is OK?
I just wanted to put it out there?

Originally Posted by faaria

If a store opens on the same block as another similar store, is it the 1st stores' job to go down the street and give a good talking to the other store and mentor them? I'm just asking because it seems the same thing but in our business that is OK?
I just wanted to put it out there?

No, but if Store 2 opens down the street from Store 1 and is able to offer the same products and/or services at a lower price, Store 1 isn't going to complain to the local Chamber of Commerce that Store 2 is undercutting. They're going to look at their own business and see how they can better market themselves to create their own niche Store 2 can't fill, or they're going to find ways to cut costs so they can compete.

In BD, however, Belly Dancer 2 gets sentenced to the ninth circle of hell instead.

Don't get me wrong here--I DO understand all the reasoning and arguments behind discouraging undercutting. Right down to the fact that there are people out there who, clueless or not, perform for free, which hurts those who are trying to make a living out of this. I'm not saying I condone the Nippletassling that goes on in the world. But at the same time, we talk a lot about operating in a legitimate business context...yet we seem unable to accept the idea of competitive pricing, which just about every other business has to deal with. I don't know. I guess I'm just saying the issue tugs at me in two directions. I feel like there has to be a better solution than where we are currently, but darn if I know what it is!

(Please, please, please don't flame me for being on the side of The Undercutters! That's really not at all what I'm trying to say.)

Originally Posted by faaria

If a store opens on the same block as another similar store, is it the 1st stores' job to go down the street and give a good talking to the other store and mentor them? I'm just asking because it seems the same thing but in our business that is OK?

i agree with this completely on one hand but we also like to think of ourselves as a sisterhood which with undercutters and under-professionals makes it very difficult. we live in a free market where employers can pick and choose who they want to hire and on what grounds they hire - looks, costuming, availability for potential sex ..c:: and pricing goes into this group as well.

what annoys me are dancers who habitually make a dollar store out of themselves - you can buy frozen peas at the shop rite for $1.50 or at the dollar store for... well... a dollar. however, at shop rite, you are guaranteed a good quality product while the dollar store stuff may be freezer burned (i've been freezer burned by this before). it all goes towards the quality for the price. generally undercutters are not as well trained, well costumed, well versed in the dance as those who charge a full going rate. this reflects poorly on all belly dancers, thereby cutting the chances for a legit bder. put enough freezer burned dollar peas out there and people will start thinking that tough and rubbery is how frozen peas should taste like. (enough with the analogy. it might be time for me to go to sleep)

another issue is that many dancers just starting out also think about a bd job in these terms - dance (actual work) for half an hour and get paid let's say $75 instead of the hundred a pro would charge. she is probably doing this for just the opportunity to dance and the extra money is a perk. what other job besides highly specialized areas offer you that much money for so minimal amount of actual work time. because every job out there requires some travel time and getting ready time, albeit not so many coats of mascara.

i know of some newbie dancers who were ecstatic that a restaurant owner was paying them fifty bucks simply because of this reasoning. fortunately, i was able to set them straight and provide them with additional costuming information.

was that mentoring? probably. did they ever go back to class as per my suggestion? no. did it help me by getting me extra work? most definitely not. was it worth it? i'm not quite sure.

p.s. however, i think the general consensus is that how low can you go in a competitive market for the product you trying to sell?

with a regular business like a store, you at least have a suggested retail price to guide you or the wholesale price plus whatever mark up you need to stay afloat.


there is no such thing in the belly dance world. Most dancers all over the country know that anything less than $75 is unacceptable for a restaurant gig. how do you deal with someone who is perpetually charging $50 for coming in and shaking their booty? that's the frustrating part that generates so many rants here on bhuz.

the issue with belly dance undercutters is that the undercutting goes so deep that it hurts the rest of the legitimate industry. undercutters refuse to go by the suggested retail price.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

Great topic, something I've been thinking about a lot lately....So, besides having a mentor to assist you along; how would you suggest a dancer go out to look for restaurant jobs? What type of research can you do to assure that you aren't stepping on another dancer toes? I hear this happens often, mainly b/c resturant owners aren't always truthful, but a girl has to start somewhere. Any thoughts?

Well honestly, in our area the way to go pro is through other dancers. You need to network, offer your services as a sub to performing dancers. Go out with other performing dancers and have a good foundation. You can't just buy a costume and strike out on your own. There are good teachers that will guide you in the right direction if you ask them.

Originally Posted by SaNoorah

Great topic, something I've been thinking about a lot lately....So, besides having a mentor to assist you along; how would you suggest a dancer go out to look for restaurant jobs? What type of research can you do to assure that you aren't stepping on another dancer toes? I hear this happens often, mainly b/c resturant owners aren't always truthful, but a girl has to start somewhere. Any thoughts?

I agree with Tanya & Zobeida......especially the part of newbies buying a fancy costume and dancing for $50 before they are ready to perform. Talking to your trusted and experienced teacher and listening to her is advice well worth taking.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I think this hits it pretty close to the mark. I think what I'm saying is that how is anyone supposed to know if no one tells them? Yes, if it's a pattern, of course that's a problem, but nobody told me back then (and the owner of that restaurant sure wasn't going to). The only way I even found out was via the online forums I began to participate in.

Sometimes I feel like we think everyone should just automatically know the right thing to do.

Darling, you did everything right: You called the venue. You talked to the owner/manager. The owner/manager told you about the audition process. Although you might have danced a bit too long for an unpaid audition, you were otherwise following the directions of the owner/manager.

It really gets my knickers in a twist when folks assume (as the scheduling dancer did in Brea's story) that everybody is up to no good. For heaven's sake, Brea talked to the owner! He didn't direct her to audition for the scheduling dancer!

GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh-oh. I feel a rant coming onn . . .

I've been dancing for 30 years and I do not know every restaurant in town, nor every dancer in town. At this time, I do not know the audition process for any restaurant. I do not know which establishments have scheduling/lead dancers and which ones are scheduled by management. I do not know the going rate at every restaurant in town, either; what would be fabulous pay at one location might very well by low-balling at another. I have my personal minimums but how am I supposed to know that the minimums at Restaurant Falafel a-Go-Go are $5 more?

Those of us who work in restaurants and similar venues really need to get a grip on our territorialism. Do I want Susie Nippletassels undercutting every pro dancer in town? Of course not! But someone who's just trying to find out the right way to get a job -- and is told by management how to go about it -- and then is accused of underhandedness . . . well, talk about paranoia!

*humph*

End rant.

Deborah

Just to look at this from a different viewpoint: not everyone who is looking for restaurant work is a student. I am a professional. I do not expect to attend someone's intermediate class so that I can get info on how to costume myself or to be invited to dance at the next student showcase.

I know lots of dancers and some of them dance in restaurants. If I was interested in dancing where a dance friend does, I would most certainly ask him/her how to go about it.

Let's say I've moved to a new area. I don't know anyone . . . now what do I do? I'd probably start by going to the restaurant to see a show or two. How's the food? What kind of clientele does the restaurant draw? Is the dancer classy and professional? Does the staff seem happy to be working there? Let's say that I'm interested in dancing. I'd call the restaurant and ask about an audition process. I'd agree to a short set on an off night. Money might be discussed at that time, or maybe later, but when it is discussed, I'd probably state my minimum plus a bit of a cushion. If the owner balks, then I walk. No big deal.

When one is interested in any job, one goes to the person or department most likely to do the hiring. In the case of a restaurant, I'd start with the owner/manager. I expect that person to say either 1) no, we're not hiring right now or 2) yes, we're hiring and this is how you go about it. As in Brea's story, if there seems to be a disconnect between what the owner does and what the scheduling dancer thinks is supposed to happen, I'd probably not want to work there; if communication about something as basic as hiring and scheduling is so poor, I'd wonder if I'd get paid properly at the end of the night. Who needs that?

Deborah who, apparently, really wasn't finished with her earlier rant. ..c::

Originally Posted by casbahdance

When one is interested in any job, one goes to the person or department most likely to do the hiring. In the case of a restaurant, I'd start with the owner/manager. I expect that person to say either 1) no, we're not hiring right now or 2) yes, we're hiring and this is how you go about it. As in Brea's story, if there seems to be a disconnect between what the owner does and what the scheduling dancer thinks is supposed to happen, I'd probably not want to work there; if communication about something as basic as hiring and scheduling is so poor, I'd wonder if I'd get paid properly at the end of the night. Who needs that?

I think I'm finally mastering the art of keeping my mouth shut when I feel a rant coming on, so I haven't chimed in much on this thread.

But *golf claps* for this post

Originally Posted by Zobeida

p.s. however, i think the general consensus is that how low can you go in a competitive market for the product you trying to sell?

with a regular business like a store, you at least have a suggested retail price to guide you or the wholesale price plus whatever mark up you need to stay afloat.


there is no such thing in the belly dance world. Most dancers all over the country know that anything less than $75 is unacceptable for a restaurant gig. how do you deal with someone who is perpetually charging $50 for coming in and shaking their booty? that's the frustrating part that generates so many rants here on bhuz.

the issue with belly dance undercutters is that the undercutting goes so deep that it hurts the rest of the legitimate industry. undercutters refuse to go by the suggested retail price.

Yep, this is the "other side" of the Store 1/Store 2 example I used above--exactly the reason I'm not saying it's okay for Suzy Nippletassels to sleep with the owner of the Falafel Hut so she can dance there for free. There are few industries where businesses would continue to take huge losses just in order to keep making widgets.

But, like I said, I think there's got to be some better solution between a house dancer losing her cool at someone like Brea, possibly telling the rest of the dance community that she's an Evil Undercutter, and letting six-week wonders dance for a plate of hummus.

Thanks to Deborah, Satin, and Genevieve.

I *do* understand her response now, though. How was she to know I wasn't an Evil Evil Undercutter? I was new in town, she'd never heard of me, for all I know there may have been a rash of people with ill intention trying to do this. But at the time, it just seemed strange, and I couldn't figure out why she seemed so upset with me.


That's the thing, though - how does one separate the one from the other? I agree with Genevieve - I'd like to see a different solution.

To me - the difference is that you reached out to her. That showed that you cared.

A true undercutter would just shrug their shoulders and never contact a house dancer.

Though - I understand her frustration - she SHOULD have handled this differently. You get more bees with honey.

She SHOULD have taken that time to explain what you did was not the best practices followed in this area and explained how things should be. Then she should have asked you about your background.

Everyone has to start somewhere - I feel that many senior/upper level dancers forget that. I am sure they have some blemishes in their past too...

I am honest with my students about my mistakes. I do not hide anything. My first teacher told me that $75 was acceptable for a gig. Many years later - I find out that she was an undercutter and that the rate was $150!

Education is key and falls on the responsibility of everyone.

Now - if you educate and they still go against it --- then they have dug their own grave..

brea, in your particular situation it seems the scheduler should have been angry with the owner. if my boss told me not to come in to work, then had someone else work in the warehouse for free, i'd be pissed at my boss!

i imagine many of the snt (suzy nipple tassles) problems persist because restaurant owners are dishonest. in brea's case, she was flat out lied to by the owner, who knowingly conned a free show out of her. to me, this is isn't a snt problem so much as a shady owner problem.

but that's probably a whole other series of topics!..l;,

anyway, how would the scheduler know if you're a snt or a pro? she could have asked some questions and really listened to your answers. she could have asked the people who saw you dance if you were a good dancer. she could have scheduled a real audition for you. just some thoughts from a non-scheduling dancer who's been screwed by an owner.

deleted

Sounds like communication just stinks in this scenario, across the board. My boyfriend's always reminding me, "Get angry about what you know, not what you don't know." It's a good motto, when you really think about it. I know I've been guilty of making assumptions

But this brings me to the flip side. Brea unknowingly undercut and I'm sure we've all been guilty of this at one point in our careers, given that it can take a long time to figure out the protocol in your area. We've established in this thread that it's not always right to speculate - though it sure is easy and tempting.

But what do you do when your community has one or more proven undercutters? When I say proven, I mean, they post the rates on their website for all to see. Some might say it's none of our business. But in a spirit of helping out, is there any tactful way to get them engaged in the greater conversation without alienating them or making them feel cornered?

My friends and I have talked about this a couple of times. We always say we're going to circulate a factual e-mail about rates, or politely tell some of these girls that they deserve better than what they're getting paid. But nobody wants to be the big meanie. It really is a delicate subject.

Thoughts?